134 réponses à ce sujet

[Hellion Rex]

I don't see how anything was twisted. TheJediSaint saying "Or maybe Bioware doesn't give a **** about black steryotypes and just pursued a character concept they thought was cool?" doesn't leave much room for different interpretations.

 

However, if you're trying to argue that TheJediSaint poorly worded his post, that's another thing entirely. Either way, it's not really conducive to discussing the matter properly.

 

Samahl is trying to address that the depiction of black women comes across as problematic. I think that's an important point worth discussing, since this isn't the first time it's been brought up. I don't think anyone on either side of this discussion is saying that any intentional ill intent was meant by the developers, but much like some problematic issues with Serendipity and Maevaris Tilani, it's something that might need to be addressed so they become aware that some players see an issue with how it's been handled. I think that's worth discussing.

Honestly, at this stage of the game, Lob, I honestly think we can't make any real assumption about Viv until we see her in game, and then judge. As a black guy, I get where Samahl is coming from, I really do. Yes it is worth discussing, but I honestly don't think we have enough information to pass judgment on Viv until the game is over.

 

Edit: to change "can" to "can't"

[LobselVith8]

From what I understand, he/she is just disappointed that Viv is not romanceable and is blaming white people and white feminists in particular.

 

Samahl brought up Isabela and issues about Vivienne that didn't relate to serving as a romance option, so I don't see how that's the primary issue. Even little things, like the comparison of Vivienne to Ortolan Bunting. I think you completely misread Samahl's posts.

 

Also, Samahl wasn't blaming all white feminists.

 

I really think that Viv is a character who happens to be black who also happens to not be romanceable. For instance Varric isn't a LI either - so what?

 

I know black women and their characterizations face a heck of a lot of problems in media, however I don't think Bioware specifically is guilty of anything here. It's also hard to judge if there are any racially motivated stereotypes going on as, to my memory, Viv is the first black female companion in a Bioware game. 

 

Thoughts?

 

Romance wasn't the primary issue that was brought up, however, but rather the depiction of black women in general, which would include Isabela. Respectfully, I think you're mistaken in feeling that Samahl's primary issue was the lack of Vivienne serving as a romance option.

[frylock23]

And what if Viv isn't a LI because she has a true love somewhere else? What if she simply isn't an ice queen like she's been depicted for marketing, but as a mage, she has to keep her loves hidden or risk losing them. There are many reasons for presenting the image she does to the world, and only one of them is that she actually is the stereotype.

 

Aside from Oghren, how often are the characters as simple as the stereotypes they seem to project?

 

I guess at this point, how much faith do you have in the writing team and the individual writers to have put together something more than what you think you have?

[SmilesJA]

Delete.

[TheJediSaint]

I think Mary is a better writer than you give her credit for.

Probably.   I think she can write a black character who transcends any stereotype.

[Mes]

 

Romance wasn't the primary issue that was brought up, however, but rather the depiction of black women in general, which would include Isabela. Respectfully, I think you're mistaken in feeling that Samahl's primary issue was the lack of Vivienne serving as a romance option.

 

I see. Maybe I didn't read all of his posts.  I'm bowing out of this conversation - I feel it odd that you keep speaking on his behalf, it would be nice for the poster in question to speak up as well. I feel like we're in a court or something. 

[Palidane]

Samahl is trying to address that the depiction of black women comes across as problematic. I think that's an important point worth discussing, since this isn't the first time it's been brought up. I don't think anyone on either side of this discussion is saying that any intentional ill intent was meant by the developers, but much like some problematic issues with Serendipity and Maevaris Tilani, it's something that might need to be addressed so they become aware that some players see an issue with how it's been handled. I think that's worth discussing.

Here's my problem with that: it rules out certain characters for no good reason. Want to have a strong, independent black women? Can't, has a stereotype. Want to have a homemaker mother of four? Can't, fits stereotype. Want to have a Black Widow-style super spy? Can't, fits stereotype. How about a black criminal? Can't, fits stereotype. A Mexican immigrant? Can't, fits stereotype. Gay in a relationship that doesn't work out? Can't, fits stereotype. From what I can tell, lesbians who do anything at all? Can't, fits stereotype.

 

And the really stupid thing is, people apply this even when there isn't an actual stereotype. I don't know if you ever saw the movie Prince Caspian (you should, it was great), but in it, the villainous nation is mostly Mediterranean people with appropriate accents. And some people flipped their ****, demanding to know why the bad guys were Mediterranean, and why they had to have such a stereotypical portrayal. One, it's not like "Oppressive conquering Mediterranean empire" is an actual thing. Two, somebody has to be the bad guy, and I think it's ridiculous that they should always have to be white, or people get offended.

 

This often tends to overlap with the "Minorities cannot have actual flaws" mentality. When a white guy is flawed, he's a well rounded character. When anyone else is flawed, people take it as a statement on the behavior of everyone in that category. Like somehow all black/hispanic/asian/gay/lesbian/female/transexual characters have to be role models instead of actual people.

 

We've debated before Lobsel, you know I don't think the poor straight white guy is being oppressed by all of the big bad minorities. I just think some people are holding Bioware, the biggest supporter of representation in the industry, to an absolutely impossible standard, and then tearing in to them when they fail to meet it. And that's not cool. 

[Hellion Rex]

Romance wasn't the primary issue that was brought up, however, but rather the depiction of black women in general, which would include Isabela. Respectfully, I think you're mistaken in feeling that Samahl's primary issue was the lack of Vivienne serving as a romance option.

You're speaking of this original post, Lob?

 

And let's not forget the fact that black women in the DA series are either promiscuous and highly sexualized or they're untouchable ice queens who don't get to be romantically available because they're sooo strong and independent and they don't need no man~

 

Ok, so in general, how many black people have we actually seen in Dragon Age? 2? Isabela (who I still don't see as black, but whatever) and Viv? That's only 2 characters, both of whom are not stereotypical characters in my eyes, at least not in the way Samahl is claiming here. I don't find the "promiscuous and highly sexualized" trope to be a stereotype really ever applied to black women. The strong and independent woman trope, I do see it fairly often, I'll grant. But again, in Viv's case, we've had what? A letter written by her and a writer interview? Not much to truly know her character.

 

In terms of representation, I am so goddamn excited to have her in DAI. She looks amazing and she is no pushover. So, in my mind Vivienne is a very good portrayal of black women.

[SmilesJA]

I see. Maybe I didn't read all of his posts.  I'm bowing out of this conversation - I feel it odd that you keep speaking on his behalf, it would be nice for the poster in question to speak up as well. I feel like we're in a court or something. 

 

Probably.   I think she can write a black character who transcends any stereotype.

 

Too bad she isn't romancable. I felt Bioware missed the mark with her.

[LobselVith8]

I see. Maybe I didn't read all of his posts.  I'm bowing out of this conversation - I feel it odd that you keep speaking on his behalf, it would be nice for the poster in question to speak up as well. I feel like we're in a court or something. 

 

I just feel like things were going off the rails a bit before, that's all. I think a civil discussion could be quite promising for people to express how they feel, because I think Samahl's points have merit, and this isn't the first time I've read someone voicing these concerns about black women in Dragon Age. I don't think Samahl, or anyone on either side of this discussion, thinks Bioware intended any malice with the depictions of characters like Isabela and Vivienne in certain regards, but some traits do seem to come across as problematic.

 

Considering how other non-white posters have also expressed their concerns in the past, I think the discussion is worth having.

[Mes]

Okay. So what exactly about Viv is problematic at this point, and what about her portrays black people negatively? Other than the romance thing, or is that the only issue?

 

I do find it odd that this is a discussion that's even possible to have, considering we haven't met her yet.

[LobselVith8]

You're speaking of this original post, Lob?

 

The one that mentions certain traits of Isabela and Vivienne? Yes.

 

Ok, so in general, how many black people have we actually seen in Dragon Age? 2? Isabela (who I still don't see as black, but whatever) and Viv? That's only 2 characters, both of whom are not stereotypical characters in my eyes, at least not in the way Samahl is claiming here. I don't find the "promiscuous and highly sexualized" trope to be a stereotype really ever applied to black women. The strong and independent woman trope, I do see it fairly often, I'll grant. But again, in Viv's case, we've had what? A letter written by her and a writer interview? Not much to truly know her character.

 

Addressing certain problematic facets of the characters isn't the same as condemning the characters in their entirety. I also think the lack of diversity contributes to that. As you yourself have pointed out, there haven't been many depictions of black characters in Dragon Age throughout the entirety of the franchise. With such a minimal amount of representation, people are going to focus on the few black characters we're presented with.

 

In terms of representation, I am so goddamn excited to have her in DAI. She looks amazing and she is no pushover. So, in my mind Vivienne is a very good portrayal of black women.

 

I don't think anyone is suggesting that the baby needs to be thrown out with the bathwater. I don't think anyone on either side of this discussion thinks Vivienne is a horrible character, just that there are some problematic issues that need to be addressed, which become more blatant due to the minimal amount of black characters we've had throughout the series.

[DeusGoddess5010]

Only black character besides Isabella in the game whom is not romanceable sigh... It still wont stop my Inquisitor from trying  haha

 

Well I could always make myself my own rivaini inquisitor and romance

 

 

If anything more rivaini characters bioware please or more races in general as companions aside from white humans.

 

Tho honestly bioware is one if the few video game companies or any industry in media or entertainment that actually makes a attempt to break the mold and diversify their characters while portraying them as real people or individuals

[frylock23]

Ok, so quickly outline your idea of the perfect black female character. What would she be like?

[Hellion Rex]

Only black character besides Isabella in the game whom is not romanceable sigh... It still wont stop my Inquisitor from trying  haha

 

Well I could always make myself my own rivaini inquisitor and romance

 

 

If anything more rivaini characters bioware please or more races in general as companions aside from white humans.

 

Tho honestly bioware is one if the few video game companies or any industry in media or entertainment that actually makes a attempt to break the mold and diversify their characters while portraying them as real people or individuals

Lol, I'm making a Rivaini looking Trevelyan for my first guy. Hopefully we will see more Rivaini characters, particularly within the Circles, as those can be very diverse.

[Maria Caliban]

I don't find the "promiscuous and highly sexualized" trope to be a stereotype really ever applied to black women.

Black women being portrayed as wild, animalistic, and hypersexual is a thing. Just like Latina women are "spicy" and Asian women are feminine and submissive.

The obvious solution to the issue of sterotyping is having lots of black women who display a wide-range of personality and viewpoint.

Anyways, wouldn't Duncan be black if Isabela is?

[Hellion Rex]

Black women being portrayed as wild, animalistic, and hypersexual is a thing. Just like Latina women are "spicy" and Asian women are feminine and submissive.

I'll grant the wild or animalistic on occasion, but I still don't agree with the hyper sexual portion. I don't really see that bit within the black women that are seen in media these days.

[Hellion Rex]

Anyways, wouldn't Duncan be black if Isabela is?

Not necessarily. What I got out of it is that more often than not, black people originate from Rivain, but not all Rivaini people are black. I don't think Duncan's black at all. He fits the Mediterranean vibe I think Isabela shares.

[LiaraShepard]

It would only be equal if everyone got "bonus" options. When one group gets them, it stops being equal.

 

Out of likes, but I approve +100 and don't forget those so called "bonus romances" are full fledged romances with the same amount of content as the other romances. 

[Not a Cat Doll]

I'll just leave this here. It's a good read. http://www4.ncsu.edu...linsImages.PDF 

[Hellion Rex]

^ your link doesn't take me anywhere.

[HiroVoid]

Not necessarily. What I got out of it is that more often than not, black people originate from Rivain, but not all Rivaini people are black. I don't think Duncan's black at all. He fits the Mediterranean vibe I think Isabela shares.

Well, I think both had the darkest skin tone possible in both previous games......of course, Isabella's supposed to be black, and I think each stylized picture of her like in Cassandra's book has her pretty light-skinned on it if I remember right.

[Not a Cat Doll]

^ your link doesn't take me anywhere.

Aw poop. It's working on my end. It's chapter 4 of Patricia Hill Collin's Black Feminist Thought, wherein she outlines and critiques some of the many harmful stereotypes applied to Black women. The whole book is great, but that chapter in particular is very strong.

[Yggdrasil]

*facepalms for entering*  *exits quickly*