134 réponses à ce sujet

[Daerog]

So... Viv is the new Aveline? Maybe she has her own love interest? Maybe she is just like Samara and is just not wanting a romance and just wants to do her duty?

 

BioWare has said many times that characters are designed first, then romance is a secondary priority... although with them trying to make it even/fair/equal, I'm kind of doubting the romance really being that secondary, maybe like the second part of first priority. (Yes, I'm aware I'm using the word priority wrong.)

 

The way it looks to me, Cullen and Solas were free DLC romances. I don't remember anyone complaining all that much when female Hawkes had more LIs with Sebastian, so this doesn't seem new to me.

 

Yes, I would have liked Viv as my mage's LI, but it doesn't work with her story, oh well.

 

 

I've done my share of complaining before, and I would be shocked if no one complained here, but I am quite content with this. It is still more LIs than previous games.

[AutumnWitch]

I want to agree with you BUT as somone who ALWAYS plays as a female elf who is only interested in other females if given the option, I do feel a bit....less happy than others might be feeling. Don't get me wrong I LOVE the option of having Sera but I would have been nice having another option. I don't view Josephine as a viable option for reasons I won't go into here. BUT I am REALLY REALLY thankful that I have the option of Sera. One choice is better than none.

[AshesEleven]

Y'all are so silly.

My point was it's a matter of perspective. Life lesson. You can look at it in this way: "the straights get more? The straights always get more! It's not fair!" And with that attitude your life will suck, because you'll be seeing injustice and inequality everywhere, never any good. You'll never be happy unless you get what you want.

You could also look at it like this: "cool, so I have the exact same amount of options as in da2. Straight and bi women have more, and I'm happy for them. It's extra content. Obviously bioware cares about lgbt people, otherwise this content wouldn't even be in the game. They could improve on a lot, and hopefully with some feedback they will."

Two different perspectives. Neither is right or wrong, but one will make you much happier in life. It also enables you to be compassionate and caring of others.

But some will still argue, cause you don't see the point. And that's fine. Maybe you will one day, maybe you won't. I wish you all peace and happiness my friends.

[AshesEleven]

Oops posted twice.

[frylock23]

Well, the problem with having a wide range of black female characters to dispel the notion of all the black female NPCs being stereotypes is that there just aren't that many possible NPCs at this point. We have a sample size of two, and as I mentioned earlier, the previous game engine was so bad at rendering ethnicity that Isabela wasn't really recognizable as black to most people.

 

I thought she was the free spirited pirate, but I never actually connected her with any kind of racial stereotype. If I was going to, the closest I could come would be gypsy, not black. And I don't think gypsy is right, either.

 

So, I think all this fuss about stereotyping is maybe premature on two counts:

1.) We haven't actually interacted with the character in any way to see if the charge is true.

2.) There really isn't any kind of meaningful sample from which to conclude that BioWare is operating off stereotypes on this front.

[TheTurtle]

Well, the problem with having a wide range of black female characters to dispel the notion of all the black female NPCs being stereotypes is that there just aren't that many possible NPCs at this point. We have a sample size of two, and as I mentioned earlier, the previous game engine was so bad at rendering ethnicity that Isabela wasn't really recognizable as black to most people.

 

I thought she was the free spirited pirate, but I never actually connected her with any kind of racial stereotype. If I was going to, the closest I could come would be gypsy, not black. And I don't think gypsy is right, either.

 

So, I think all this fuss about stereotyping is maybe premature on two counts:

1.) We haven't actually interacted with the character in any way to see if the charge is true.

2.) There really isn't any kind of meaningful sample from which to conclude that BioWare is operating off stereotypes on this front.

He may not be a female, but Jacob is most definitely a stereotype.

[animedreamer]

Why does it need to be equal anyway? Is equal a interchangeable term for fair? Because if thats how people are using it maybe what the op should have said was, not everything is fair, real or fantasy. I can't say how bioware writers write their characters or comes up with ideas for them, but in my personal opinion i wouldn't aim for pleasing everyone or anyone for that matter, i'd simply create characters that feel as real as i could possibly write them, and if i made 4 characters who were in my mind based on their personalities, and back stories were heterosexual then so be it, i wouldn't try to shoehorn 2 of them into being bi, or gay, and vice versa. The point I'm trying to make is that they are characters and their motives and over-all character should be more important than whether or not you can bed them, or not bed them as the case may be.

 

If you are looking at a character and saying to yourself without even knowing who they are, "I want to romance that character." or "I can't wait to make my female/male x romance that guy/girl." Then you are missing out on the whole point why the character is there in the first place. Maybe because its obvious they are potential party members we immediately assume we want to be friends with them, and then some, or maybe it's because its a Bioware game and romance is handled better in them than most other games, we or players tend to look past why relationships are formed in the first place. Are you going to be playing your character for the sole purpose of romancing X? Making choices that make you seem more likable to X? Or are you going to play your character as you see fit and should love find you, choose to accept it?

 

Me personally im going to have fun doing what i think the character i have in mind would do, and should a LI show interest take it from there assuming i think that LI fits my character. 

 

Also i think it best to forget about ethnicities that don't exist in fantasy worlds, terms like White, Black, Asian, Hispanic don't apply in a world that isn't modern day or past Earth. They may have features exactly like real world people but unless the writers write their cultural and history to match our real world counterparts, such things as stereotypes do not apply.

[KBomb]

The food she was compared to is high in cruelty, she is portrayed as ambitious and ruthless, and she's pro-establishment. She is quite reminiscent of oppressors.

 

 

There is a stereotype of black women being "strong and independent", to the point where that's all they ever are. They're not shown as capable of loving or being loved, of being gentle, sensitive, emotional, or delicate. From where I'm standing, Vivienne seems to fit that trope to a T.

 

It wouldn't be as much of a problem if BioWare made a habit of including a variety black characters in their games, but they don't. They've written themselves into a corner.

What food was she compared to and who made the comparison? 

[AshesEleven]

Why does it need to be equal anyway? Is equal a interchangeable term for fair? Because if thats how people are using it maybe what the op should have said was, not everything is fair, real or fantasy. 

 

Also that.  

[Marshal Moriarty]

I still think that the reaction speaks to general disatisfaction with the romances presented. The ratio matters to a certain extent (Vivienne as a straight option might not have been very well received by gay fans, but it would have given both genders 5 options). But if people were really excited about certain romances, then they wouldn't complain all that much.

 

I'm not going to raise a huge fuss over this issue, but I am disappointed. Yet again the leading lady is a male only romance and there still aren't any gay or lesbian Knight characters. Its not a dealbreaker for me (Mass Effect 2 had no gay options at all, other than an Easter Egg style 'romance' with Kelly), but after KOTOR, Jade Empire, Mass Effect 1,2 and3, Dragon Age Origins, DA2 and now DA:I, to still not have the above boxes ticked even once - is it really such a tall order to make the leading lady (the one most important to the story in other words) at least bisexual? Is a gay or lesbian knight character that much of a stretch?!

 

Oh, and I know what you're going to say - what about Juhani? A romance so brief and so obscure that even the guy who wrote it didn't realize it had made it into the game.

[LobselVith8]

What food was she compared to and who made the comparison? 

 

Mary Kirby mentioned it when asked what food best described Vivienne; she said 'Ortolan Bunting', a meal that is served in France, where the bird is caught alive, blinded and put in a dark cage, force fed until it's extremely fat, then drowned in Armagnac, and roasted for about eight minuets.

[Icy Magebane]

What food was she compared to and who made the comparison? 

According to the wiki, that would be Mary Kirby:  http://dragonage.wik...m/wiki/Vivienne

There's a quote with a citation at the bottom of the page in the "trivia" section... this Ortolan Bunting sounds absolutely disgusting btw... can't believe people would actually do that to an animal.

 

edit:  curses... 'ed.

[AshesEleven]

I still think that the reaction speaks to general disatisfaction with the romances presented. The ratio matters to a certain extent (Vivienne as a straight option might not have been very well received by gay fans, but it would have given both genders 5 options). But if people were really excited about certain romances, then they wouldn't complain all that much.

 

I'm not going to raise a huge fuss over this issue, but I am disappointed. Yet again the leading lady is a male only romance and there still aren't any gay or lesbian Knight characters. Its not a dealbreaker for me (Mass Effect 2 had no gay options at all, other than an Easter Egg style 'romance' with Kelly), but after KOTOR, Jade Empire, Mass Effect 1,2 and3, Dragon Age Origins, DA2 and now DA:I, to still not have the above boxes ticked even once - is it really such a tall order to make the leading lady (the one most important to the story in other words) at least bisexual? Is a gay or lesbian knight character that much of a stretch?!

 

Oh, and I know what you're going to say - what about Juhani? A romance so brief and so obscure that even the guy who wrote it didn't realize it had made it into the game.

 

I was actually really hoping Blackwall would be gay, because of how insanely unexpected and going against the grain it'd be.

 

There is still so much Bioware could do to improve in this area.  There's no denying that.  But it's also important sometimes to recognize how far we've progressed.  That doesn't mean to be complacent and be satisfied with anything.  But you gotta focus on the positives too!

[aTigerslunch]

I was going to come in and say YAY! for the romance options, then I read thru to second page and I was like....wha? 

 

Im perfectly fine with the romances, so what that elven and human females got Solas and Blackwall. 

 

If I want to explore their romances I would roll an elven or human female up...though I wonder why its not a complaint that its racist against everything not elven, when they got the most?  Personally, whatever....  Why stress over something like that and cause heart attacks quicker. I'd roll up a female elf and flirt with everyone to see how that goes. 

 

I can understand why Vivi would not be interested, but best to learn from her the reason.

[Marshal Moriarty]

Ashes:

Absolutely, but how many times do they need to take a swing at this? Its not like we've just started asking for this overnight, or that some kind of huge revolution in how same sex romance is viewed has just this minute happened. Having a gay/lesbian Knight or having one of their leading women (or men) be gay would have been progressive if they'd done it 5-6 years ago.

 

But not doing it (and still not doing it now) make them seem positively behind the times. When Fable and Skyrim etc have done it (okay, so those romance systems aren't the deepest in the world, but I could have the partners I wanted, and it wasn't a big deal). And yes, there is Kaiden in ME3, but he wasn't the main male lead by that time - if he'd been gay in ME1, then that would have been different. But it was a start I suppose - I just can't believe we still aren't there yet. At this rate, JRPGs will have beaten us to it!

[Daerog]

I was going to come in and say YAY! for the romance options, then I read thru to second page and I was like....wha? 

 

Im perfectly fine with the romances, so what that elven and human females got Solas and Blackwall. 

 

 

 

I'll say it with you: YAY! for the romances!

 

Gaspard for emperor!

 

Ashes:

Absolutely, but how many times do they need to take a swing at this? Its not like we've just started asking for this overnight, or that some kind of huge revolution in how same sex romance is viewed has just this minute happened. Having a gay/lesbian Knight or having one of their leading women (or men) be gay would have been progressive if they'd done it 5-6 years ago.

 

But not doing it (and still not doing it now) make them seem positively behind the times. When Fable and Skyrim etc have done it (okay, so those romance systems aren't the deepest in the world, but I could have the partners I wanted, and it wasn't a big deal). And yes, there is Kaiden in ME3, but he wasn't the main male lead by that time - if he'd been gay in ME1, then that would have been different. But it was a start I suppose - I just can't believe we still aren't there yet. At this rate, JRPGs will have beaten us to it!

 

Seriously? They opened up the romances to all in DA2 and got some backlash because of it. DA2 did come out before Skyrim, but Fable is some years older than DA2. Also, those two had no leading man/woman besides the PC.

 

Or do you mean having many options? In that case, would prefer them to not go that route personally, it is very hollow.

[Willowhugger]

Will I be reasonable about not having MY specific preferences and views catered to?

 

[Dabrikishaw]

As Mike said, there were initially six romances, and then two later added when more time was given them (Cullen and Solas, it seems).  

 

Disappointment is cool, so is being upset.  But I think it's important to look at it this way: everything is equal.  There are two straights, two bisexuals, and two gays.  In addition, there are two "bonus" romances, for straight humans and straight elves (both female).  

 

I mean, you can look at it in the way that Bioware gave straight people more options, but that would be a simplification.  They gave straight women more options if they happen to be playing one of two races.  Many will be playing humans, it's true, but how many players of the game will play as a female elf?  A minority.  

 

Everyone has at least two options.  There could have been only six romances, but the developers had the time to make more content, and for that I am supremely happy.  I don't see that as a bad thing.    

Truth.

[KBomb]

Mary Kirby mentioned it when asked what food best described Vivienne; she said 'Ortolan Bunting', a meal that is served in France, where the bird is caught alive, blinded and put in a dark cage, force fed until it's extremely fat, then drowned in Armagnac, and roasted for about eight minuets.

Thanks for answering. What an odd comparison. I wonder why she chose that particular dish.

[Marshal Moriarty]

I did say that Skyrim and Fable didn't have deep romances - see, it says so right there in my post. My point was that at least the choice literally existed. I.e that I could find a partner of my choosing to my liking from a very broad range of styles and personalties. It wasn't perfect by any stretch of the imagination, and of course I'd rather have something more in depth. But how long am I supposed to wait? For many years, I *was* satisfied with Bioware's output on this issue, because if I didn't always get the romances I wanted, at least some were available, which was more than most developers would give. But the desire for the leading man/woman to be available to the gay player has been knocking around for a long, long time. They know we want this, but game after game and year after year go by, and it still hasn't happened. Same with the gay/lesbian knight.

 

Its not a *big* issue, but it gets bigger every time a game comes out and we still don't have it. Because its not a huge thing to ask for, surely? The leading man and woman have the most connection to the story, they are usually (sometimes the only) permanent characters who will be with the character pretty much from the very start to the very end. They are the ones that are most suitable to use when telling the epic tragic love story (as with Bastila/Carth etc) because the game *knows* they are in the party. And with Morrigan, the dark ritual is the *big* moment of betrayal (or at least dropping the biggest bombshell). And yet these sequences that have extra charge to them if you are also romancing the relevant characters (romancing Miranda when you tell TIM to screw off at the end of ME2 and seeing her choose you over him etc), are only for straight players.

 

Again, in itself it hasn't been that big a deal for me over the years. Just a constant niggle of 'What - again?!' But decades have gone by, and we still seem to be stuck on this issue. And I'm not saying there hasn't been any movement - see, that;s in my post too. Take Lair of the Shadow Broker for example. Although a DLC, it plays out like a small, self contained game within a game. And Liara is the leading lady in that (the Bond Girl if you will), and can be being played as gay. So its not like there's no movement, but considering how progressive they have been over the years, I feel its odd that this still hasn't happened (or that LotSB is the closest thing we have).

 

I just don't understand why its considered a big ask. If the lead characters aren't ever gay or bisexual, and if certain types of characters (Knights for the sake of this argument) are never shown to be gay or bisexual, that sends out messages of its own. I like many people have chosen not to read such things into it, because I don't think that's what they intend (I certainly hope not). But again, its been a lot of games and a lot of years, and... we're still waiting on this. I can't put it more plainly than to say its something that the gay community would like to see, its something we've asked for over a long period of time, and it would just be a weight off a great many shoulders to see it finally happen.

[Daerog]

Well, just to try and play devil's advocate:

 

Anders was a lead character (besides Hawke) in DA2, as he was essential to the plot. It was him and Varric who were the more important companions pretty much, like Alistair and Morrigan in DA:O. (He pretty much was the Morrigan for DA2.)

 

Iron Bull is the equivalent of a knight for the Qunari.

 

(Although, I understand wanting something more specific, something more towards the typical human knight.)

[BobZilla84]

I am sad about Vivienne because My Canon World State consists of a Male Mage PC &  Female Mage LI "Surana & Morrigan" "Hawke & Merrill" but in DAI we dont even get a female mage LI option period Thanks B-Ware you ruined my World State. 

[Marshal Moriarty]

Not to be argumentative (really - I don't want to be standing up on a soapbox over this), but Anders is indicative of when Bioware try to almost sneak such characters under the radar as if they are testing the waters on this. For the majority of the game, Anders is not a main character - he only becomes so right at the end. You can actually have dismissed him before that, and he can play next to no role in your playthrough. DA2's main leads were Varric and Aveline. Varric is crucial for the narration, but also he is the motivating factor of Act 1. Aveline plays a central role in Act 2 as she is the primary official dealing on the ground with the Qunari etc and is close to the Hawke family (she appears in several extra scenes if Hawke doesn't have a love interest to offer advice, support etc).

 

Back to the issue at hand though about Anders going under the radar somewhat. Its not the only time Bioware have done this. Because I'll address the elephant in the room, regarding my argument - Mass Effect 3. Because Liara *is* in fact the main female lead in that game, she is a permanent character, your executive officer, and she can be played as gay, So problem solved, right? Well... sort of, but kind of not really. Because Liara really doesn't act like much of a lead. In her first appearance on Mars Archives, and in the Citadel hearing, then sure, but that's pretty much the only time she really feels like the lead character. Because as soon as you recruit Garrus on Menae, he basically assumes the executive officer role in all but name, being the one that Shepard confides in and discusses the mission with, at pretty much all the critical moments. Liara is very much relegated back to 'Gay Love Interest' status for the most of the game.

 

But... again, it is movement at least. I just think that most people, if presented with this as proof that the issue had already been addressed, would agree that it was a rather tepid, 'see if anyone minds' approach to tackling the issue. I give them credit for it, don't get me wrong. And it was as far as we've ever come along this road, and shouldn't be dismissed, But it was hardly the watershed moment that we'd been waiting for. As I said, she seemed to be the lead on paper, more than in practice. After the opening levels, she really isn't very prominent, and it just seems like the Garrus and Vega show (nothing wrong with that of course, but hey...)

 

All we're saying is that straight gamers get more out of scenes like choosing who lives and dies out of Ashley and Kaiden on Virmire, because they are straight romance options. Pursuing Morrigan to the Mirror in 'Witch Hunt' has an extra dimension for male gamers who romanced her, that female gamers/player don't have access to. We'd just like to be able to have that extra dimension at the big moments, with the important characters. That's all I'm saying, really. Like I say I don't discount Liara in ME3, nor do I discount your suggestion of Anders in DA2 (because that does give us the kind of moment I've just been talking about - a big, dramatic, potentially fatal moment with a gay/bisexual LI involved). But its the way they did it, sneaking it in at the last minute, when Anders was so peripheral for most of the game.

 

Better late than never, and better to have the scene than not of course, but I couldn't help but feel like it was hidden away almost, that the idea of a gay character being this important to the story and your potential gay lover was so controversial that they kept the full importance of it under wraps until the very last minute. Because it was so out of the blue, that a great many people were like 'What the hell - Anders?! Since when did he matter this much in the story? What's going on?!'

 

Anyway, that's all I've got to say. I appreciate there is some movement on this issue, but I feel like we need to keep mentioning it and keeping it alive in the consciousness of Bioware that this is something we want. When the big moments come, that's when inequality over romances as regards the lead characters is most keenly felt. That's what makes it an issue that we'd like to see consistent work to address (and which DA:I appears not to, which is why I bring it up here).

[Steelcan]

Damn this thread went to hell while I was playing ACIV

[Lucy Glitter]

Lucy approves (+50)