371 réponses à ce sujet

[bEVEsthda]

No, because you made the wild and completely erroneous assumption that JRPG players are the only "type" of people who didn't object strenuously to the voiced protagonist in DA2, for one.  I've never played a JRPG in my life--the entire esthetic sensibility is eye-rollingly stupid to me.  I don't mind a small amount of some of the more minor elements in games, but I'm an old-school gamer who started out with text-based games, for crying out loud.  I was playing 2nd edition Advanced Dungeons and Dragons computer RPG's before they had DIALOG, when your reactions to encounters were Attack, Wait, Parlay, and Flee, including that rather amusing one where an NPC would ninja-mance one of your PC's more or less completely out of the blue.  When your options were along the lines of "go in the room or don't".  By today's standards they were hardly games at all, but damn if I didn't love the heck out of them all the same.

 

Heck, one of my favorite RPG's of all time (Gothic) has a voiced protagonist and paraphrased dialog and it came out the year after Baldur's Gate 2.  That's right, this voiced protagonist thing actually PREDATES Neverwinter Nights.  And you didn't get to pick ANYTHING about the protagonist, either, not how he looked, not his race or gender, not his voice (which was snarky ).  But it was an awesome game, much underrated (largely because the combat control design was, unfortunately, a big pile of poo). 

 

So, yes, you can be an "old school" gamer and be just dandy with the whole voiced protagonist thing--even quite like it.  It has a lot going for it and opens up a lot of possibilities.  Sure, it might cut in on the illusion that this is "your character"--but that was never more than an illusion, anyway.

 

I did nothing of the kind.

 

I noted that people on this forum, coming from a jRPG background, seemed, in general, to be much more positive to DA2.

[Ieldra]

@Psychoblonde:
And here we go with the insults. I've done enough PnP roleplaying since the early 1980s to know what I'm talking about, thank you very much, and I'm perfectly willing to mentally rewrite dialogue if necessary. However, playing against the writers is rather different from being free in the first place, and removes nothing of the dissatisfaction created by the necessity. So why bother if it's not necessary? If a line captures the essence of what I want to say, using words I might use, why would I *need* to change it?

[Vilegrim]

Very much this. 

 

Metacritic is a horrible source. It's a very flawed system that only takes the means of scores with no context. I also disagree the collective opinion of a handful of guys on the internet credibly speak for the quality of a game, as if quality was measurable on a metric to begin with.

 

Planescape was indeed a great game and one of my favorite RPGs in history. But that was because the story and setting were amazing, far above and beyond any Infinity Engine game. The combat was mediocre, the UI poor, and the gameplay systems even more limiting than Inquisition's (the horror!).

 

 

Better than professional reviews written by people with huge sums in ad-revenue at risk and clutching a goody bag worth hundreds given out by the company publishing the game.

[XxPrincess(x)ThreatxX]

People should really stop arguing about liking voiced or unvoiced protagonists, it won't go anywhere so is pointless, people like what they like

[XxPrincess(x)ThreatxX]

Better than professional reviews written by people with huge sums in ad-revenue at risk and clutching a goody bag worth hundreds given out by the company publishing the game.

I wouldn't trust a review site where games can be rated as 0/10 by people who haven't even played the game themselves

[bEVEsthda]

People should really stop arguing about liking voiced or unvoiced protagonists, it won't go anywhere so is pointless, people like what they like

 

Lol, yes. In particular they should stop arguing that someone else can't play and experience the game, in the way they actually are doing it.

 

But there might be a case to be made for the option of muting the protagonist.

I get that some developers think this throws a fly in their soup. Then they would have to provide a complete dialogue list, etc.

But it might be worth much more than the cost. Better return value than a Skyrim open world and an Inqusitor Tycoon game on the side.

 

It's too late, I guess.

[Gtdef]

I wouldn't trust a review site where games can be rated as 0/10 by people who haven't even played the game themselves

 

A 0/10 with some semblance of actual in game information is far more valuable than anything over 8/10. There are 2 reasons why people do this. Either because they troll or because the game has some important flaw and they want to make a point. The flaw can be either for the game itself, or it's very concept (like rating a cod mw3 0/10 because it was the exact same as it's predecessors).

 

 

 

But there might be a case to be made for the option of muting the protagonist.

 

This won't really work. Since the character was written as voiced, muting him won't change anything. You may get to decide the tone of what he says, but the options are still limited.

 

To give you an example, think of speeches in older games, and think of speeches in Mass Effect games.

The first example, you would say something and the listeners would probably get a combat bonus or something, since the speech itself has no cinematic value, in the vein of PnP games. In mass effect you just sound cool and gain paragon/renegade.

 

Muting Shepard won't change the design.

[Il Divo]

And here we go again. ...And you wouldn't consider that I and S t mad are living proof of that you are - simply - wrong?

 

About as much I'd consider that the existence of people with the opposite belief inherently makes them right.

 

People follow all sorts of logical/illogical ideas. Hell, some crazies might still believe the Earth is flat. The existence of belief in x or y does not provide validity for that belief. 

 

To be clear, I also don't think the voiced protagonist is inherently tied to tone icons. 

[bEVEsthda]

About as much I'd consider that the existence of people with the opposite belief inherently makes them right.

 

 

I would gather you misread or missed the context?

[Il Divo]

Let's be clear about one thing. This is not about S.t Mad. He's just careful to only speak for himself, and he's very conscious of what he's doing and how he's doing it. I'd guess part of the reason for the latter, is the amount of silent vs voiced debate he's participated in the last years.

But this is not just S t mad. A very large part of the RPG audience prefer silent protagonist. They may not be as acutely aware of why, but they typically do know that the voiced character "is not their character". Watch the guy in the previously posted video, for example, who asks the developers about silent protagonist.

 

IMO, the situation behind this is that it's really two different audiences. And two different genres of games. To consolidate them into a single genre and a single audience would seem daunting task, but is it?

 

On one hand you have the watch-interactive-movie audience. Everybody who comes from a jRPG background relate to these games that way. Because that's the only way to relate to jRPGs. That's the argument that wRPGs is a different genre. In that case it's understandable why these games are called "role playing games", because that's the tradition they came from. The early PC games didn't have much explicitly defined at all. The player automatically created everything inside his head. In a way similar to how we create things when we read a book for instance. And even as these games became more defined, they were very careful to leave the protagonist entirely to the player. So a lot of the players experienced these games from the perspective of a character created inside their heads. BG came from this line, and so did most of Bioware's audience, prior to DA2, ME.

 

Here's another thing I want to say. I have absolutely zero interest in interactive-movie type of games. Zero. The only reason I play RPGs is to experience my character's story. I never finished PST, because it felt indifferent to me. I never finished TW2, because it felt indifferent to me. Life is too short to waste on things which aren't interesting. I'd rather play with a flight simulator than play an interactive-movie. And I haven't touched a flight simulator in like decades. If I want a story, I read a book. They're like crazy much better than games for stories. I get that some people want a more active and animated protagonist in the movies they're watching. Who wouldn't, if that was how you related to the game? But I have no interest in these games except for providing me an opportunity to roleplay a character.

 

Then Bioware pooped in the blue cupboard. DA2. I have this sort of conviction that one big reason for the vast amount of hatred this game generated, was that people couldn't play it like they used to. Whether they were consciously aware of that the reason was the voiced Hawke or not. There are other things which will generate hatred of course, the change in art direction for one. But people hated Hawke. Still do. People coming from a jRPG background, though, typically don't. To me, at least, it has seemed very obvious here on the forum, that gamers from jRPG background are much more positive to DA2.

 

So, I'm inclined to think that the voiced character is really one of the key pieces behind the so called polarization of Bioware's audience. Which they have claimed wanting to bridge with DA:I. Can they do that? Isn't that a very daunting mission? Bioware certainly seem to have bust their balls trying.  But what if it's far simpler?

 

What if it was possible to mute the protagonist?

 

Since you did place Planescape: Torment in the "interactive movie" category, consider that many who despise DA2 and talk about how amazing old school RPGs have also listed Planescape: Torment right along side Baldur's Gate II, and other Infinity Engine games and indeed placed it even above them. 

 

I think that's a pretty big hole in that theory. If DA2 had the benefit of Planescape's setting, characters, and plot, it very well might have blown fans away, so trying to pinpoint the focus on the "interactive movie" aspect" without all other factors being equal is an extremely questionable approach to the problem, given the different aspects of Planescape which are applauded....as opposed to DA2.  

[Ieldra]

We're arguing about personal experiences with game features here. Nobody can be wrong there unless their statements are based on wrong facts. I may recommend adjusting their perspective to people I don't agree with, but I have to no business telling them they're playing wrong. Which means that anyone who tells people they're playing wrong actually *is* wrong.

 

Edit:

For the record, while I think DA2 did suffer from the paraphrasing and the necessity to adhere to screenwriting rules for the presentation, it was still *way* better as an RPG than, for instance, the ME games. At least in Act I and II, its problems had little to do with roleplaying and story and everything with combat and exploration. I don't think there is a necessary connection between cinematic presentation or voiced protagonists and an unsatisfactory roleplaying experience. There is, however, the fact that a satisfactory roleplaying experience is more difficult to create with these elements.

[Il Divo]

I would gather you misread or missed the context?

 

Very well possible. Hell, I may have misunderstood the post I just made right above this one. Let me know if so and I'll edit accordingly. 

[Hibernating]

Better than professional reviews written by people with huge sums in ad-revenue at risk and clutching a goody bag worth hundreds given out by the company publishing the game.

The only way metacritic user reviews will ever be a useful is if they automatically remove all 0's and 10's without telling anyone. This game, Day 1 will get bombarded with 0/10 metacritic reviews regardless of how good it is.

People will do this because of the usual EA jerk, the fact you couldn't romance everyone and everything, the fact that you could romance anyone, same-sex relationships, gay relationships, the 8 ability jerk and a variety of other reasons.

Metacritic user reviews is worse  than useless.

[bEVEsthda]

Since you did place Planescape: Torment in the "interactive movie" category, consider that many who despise DA2 and talk about how amazing old school RPGs have also listed Planescape: Torment right along side Baldur's Gate II, and other Infinity Engine games and indeed placed it even above them. 

 

I think that's a pretty big hole in that theory. If DA2 had the benefit of Planescape's setting, characters, and plot, it very well might have blown fans away, so trying to pinpoint the focus on the "interactive movie" aspect" without all other factors being equal is an extremely questionable approach to the problem.  

 

I did not place PST in the "interactive movie" cathegory.

 

This was in a paragraph were the context was my interest in RPGs. I used it as an example of how vital the experience I'm looking for is for my interest in a game. I used PST and TW2 as examples, specifically because they are not typically perceived as jRPGs or "interactive movies".  If I had wanted to make the point you presume, I would have used a jRPG as example.

 

As for "pinpointing", why did you think I said "one", and even underlined it, "one"?

[Vilegrim]

I wouldn't trust a review site where games can be rated as 0/10 by people who haven't even played the game themselves

 

 

better than everything by a large publisher getting an 8 at minimum.

[LinksOcarina]

And here we go again. ...And you wouldn't consider that I and S t mad are living proof of that you are - simply - wrong?

 

Don't go there man...the last thing I need right now is to point all the fallacies mentioned in your arguments again. 

[XxPrincess(x)ThreatxX]

The only way metacritic user reviews will ever be a useful is if they automatically remove all 0's and 10's without telling anyone. This game, Day 1 will get bombarded with 0/10 metacritic reviews regardless of how good it is.

People will do this because of the usual EA jerk, the fact you couldn't romance everyone and everything, the fact that you could romance anyone, same-sex relationships, gay relationships, the 8 ability jerk and a variety of other reasons.

Metacritic user reviews is worse  than useless.

This is why id rather play the game myself & form my own opinion, is really obvious that when Inquisition comes out it'll get alot of 0/10 scores by people who hate EA & Bioware, & who have 0 intention of ever playing it themselves

[PsychoBlonde]

Different experiences I guess. That NEVER happened to me, and I'm still astonished that anyone thinks these options were ambiguous.

 

 

Also, I find this hard to believe.  Here's a response trio from a companion conversation.  One of them gives MASSIVE approval for this companion.  Which is it?  And which is the one that gives NO approval?

 

1.  Why not?

2.  I'm sorry.

3.  Well, you can stay with us.

 

I interpret this as:

 

1.  Innocent question, trying to find out more so I can help

2.  Sympathy.

3.  Dismissive.  With one wave of my hand, I have solved your problem.  Time for lunch.  We should chat more often, so I can fix all your problems in a similar fashion.

 

The game interprets this as:

 

1.  Demanding nosiness (negative approval)

2.  Dismissive semi-sympathy (small approval)

3.  Massive, massive overture of friendship (big, big approval)

 

Yeah, that was totally not ambiguous.  At all.  The first time I ran up across that (and many other situations) I was shocked that there was even an approval option, much less that every single one of those had approval tied to it!

[Il Divo]

I did not place PST in the "interactive movie" cathegory.

 

This was in a paragraph were the context was my interest in RPGs. I used it as an example of how vital the experience I'm looking for is for my interest in a game. I used PST and TW2 as examples, specifically because they are not typically perceived as jRPGs or "interactive movies".  If I had wanted to make the point you presume, I would have used a jRPG as example.

 

Here's another thing I want to say. I have absolutely zero interest in interactive-movie type of games. Zero. The only reason I play RPGs is to experience my character's story. I never finished PST, because it felt indifferent to me. Life is too short to waste on things which aren't interesting. I'd rather play with a flight simulator than play an interactive-movie. 

 

Generally-speaking, listing PS:T after a declarative statement about your disinterest in interactive movies would have the opposite effect, but fair enough. 

 

I'll be honest in saying that I rarely hear JRPGs referred to as interactive movies. Typically when I hear interactive movie, I think Mass Effect or Heavy Rain, games which attempt to blend cinematic directing with player involvement. In many ways, based on its writing style, I think that Planescape is really easy to trace as an influence for this direction.  

[Vilegrim]

This is why id rather play the game myself & form my own opinion, is really obvious that when Inquisition comes out it'll get alot of 0/10 scores by people who hate EA & Bioware, & who have 0 intention of ever playing it themselves

 

 

only way to play it is to buy it, and I don't want torisk my money without getting at least some idea that it's worth it.

[Hibernating]

better than everything by a large publisher getting an 8 at minimum.

 

Because AAA titles are rarely unplayable? 7 seems to be the average for those titles and its not unfair. 0-3 are for things like alien colonial marines, games which are actually unplayable. 3-5 are for games which function (barely) but are on the whole unejoyable. 6-7 are for decent games, but nothing groundbreaking. 

Most AAA titles, being that millions of dollars have been spent on them and large production times, will be half decent. Its not unexpected that they usually score well. Stop the circle jerk.

[Il Divo]

Also, I find this hard to believe.  Here's a response trio from a companion conversation.  One of them gives MASSIVE approval for this companion.  Which is it?  And which is the one that gives NO approval?

 

1.  Why not?

2.  I'm sorry.

3.  Well, you can stay with us.

 

I interpret this as:

 

1.  Innocent question, trying to find out more so I can help

2.  Sympathy.

3.  Dismissive.  With one wave of my hand, I have solved your problem.  Time for lunch.  We should chat more often, so I can fix all your problems in a similar fashion.

 

The game interprets this as:

 

1.  Demanding nosiness (negative approval)

2.  Dismissive semi-sympathy (small approval)

3.  Massive, massive overture of friendship (big, big approval)

 

Yeah, that was totally not ambiguous.  At all.  The first time I ran up across that (and many other situations) I was shocked that there was even an approval option, much less that every single one of those had approval tied to it!

 

And that's where I run into problems. I'm completely comfortable with people misunderstanding my tone. But it certainly doesn't help that Bioware's implied tones affect might affect what subsequent content options you might be given in dialogue.

 

If I say something in x tone and the person interprets it as if I'd said it in y tone, but the game gives me subsequent dialogue as if I'd said it in y tone, we're going to have problems.  

[Hibernating]

only way to play it is to buy it, and I don't want torisk my money without getting at least some idea that it's worth it.

 

Which is a solid plan as money should always be spent wisely, but metacritic isn't the place to do that. Read some of the smaller blogs (if you think the advertising to the larger sites effects their results), watch some unbiased youtube reviews. Totalbiscuit is good for giving his raw opinion without being swayed. Maybe watch a lets play or something. 

[XxPrincess(x)ThreatxX]

only way to play it is to buy it, and I don't want torisk my money without getting at least some idea that it's worth it.

You could easily just rent it or buy it then get a refund if you didn't like it, is better then looking at a dozen bad reviews by people who have no intention of really playing the game & who give 0/10 scores simply cos they hate EA/Bioware/same-sex romances/female PC's etc

[bEVEsthda]

Here's another thing I want to say. I have absolutely zero interest in interactive-movie type of games. Zero. The only reason I play RPGs is to experience my character's story. I never finished PST, because it felt indifferent to me. Life is too short to waste on things which aren't interesting. I'd rather play with a flight simulator than play an interactive-movie. 

 

Generally-speaking, listing PS:T after a declarative statement about your disinterest in interactive movies would have the opposite effect, but fair enough. 

 

You're right. But the reason I used TW2 and PST was to emphasize how intolerant my taste is in this regard. But you're right, this is not clear or well expressed. It is only implied by my use of explicitly TW2 and PST.