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There should be a peace option when we solve the Mage-Templar conflict


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#326
Hobbes

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I suppose that eventually an accord would need to be reached even if it comes at the edge of a sword.

 

But i doubt it would be very appealing to people, i mean i suppose most pro mages don't want to see mages go back to the circle, despite that being the highest likelihood to occur.

That's true, I do say I would like to be able to orchestrate the start some sort of peace/compromise between the two, but I'm not really sure what that would even entail.  I don't think it will be a thing where we can just get them to just give it up.  Perhaps you can suggest different variations of a solution depending on who you support?  

 

I don't know, but I definitely do think mages do need some sort of governance over them, just something more open and less harsh than a lot of the circles could be.



#327
Icy Magebane

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I dunno, I suppose it's a question of Idle Hands are the Devil's Workshop. If the Mages are supervised by the Inquisition then it's very likely quite a lot of them will JOIN the Inquisition in rooting out evil mages.

 

The Templars are, as now, a Panopticon system which watches mages 24-7 as their chief and primary job.

 

If Mages are, "Innocent until proven guilty but we have a BIG ****ing stick if guilty" then it might free up the Inquisition to be able to do things more useful to Thedas like actually tracking down Blood Mages, Demons, and devising ways to fight the Qunari or Darkspawn.

 

One of the big things I've noticed about the Templars is they're so damn WASTEFUL. Most mages seem to be fairly normal people and there's so many damn bad guys OUTSIDE the Circle.

Like the entire nation of Tevinter.

Remember, when you side with the Mages, the Templars CAN'T HELP AGAINST THE DARKSPAWN. I mean...wth.

I can understand the desire for serious reforms, it just seems like you'd be spreading yourself a bit thin if you attempt to take on this role... there are a lot of mages out there and more are born every day.  This isn't something that the Inquisition can attend to on weekends, it's something that requires their attention 24/7.  Now perhaps if there was a Templar branch of the Inquisition that would be one thing, but there would still be the need to gain the approval of every nation's leaders, see to the building or acquisition of new quarters for the reformed Circles (or whatever you want to call the mage dormitories), delegate soldiers to permanently oversee the mages (which are basically just Templars but with different names and less anti-magic powers in most cases)... seems like a waste of time to completely get rid of the system and then rebuild it in pretty much the same way...  and again, this assumes a lot of authority that I am not convinced the Inquisition actually has.  If you do have that much power, I seriously doubt that you'll have time for much else if you take on such a responsibility...


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#328
LobselVith8

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Maybe it's something like:

 

Kill all the mages

Kill all the templars

Kill extremists, re-establish Circle

 

Or something similar

 

I'm thinking either the mages or the templars will have to be defeated, depending on who we side with, given the recent Skyhold article and what Cameron Lee said about siding with either mages or templars.

 

At least the option to side with either group allows pro-templar and pro-mage players to pursue a specific ideology that they personally agree with - either templars being in charge, or mages governing themselves (which was the entire point of the Magi Boon that the Hero of Ferelden could advocate for). It no longer has to be some debate that people argue about in the forums without consensus, but rather something players can pursue once and for all in the narrative of Inquisition.


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#329
Willowhugger

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I can understand the desire for serious reforms, it just seems like you'd be spreading yourself a bit thin if you attempt to take on this role... there are a lot of mages out there and more are born every day.  This isn't something that the Inquisition can attend to on weekends, it's something that requires their attention 24/7.  Now perhaps if there was a Templar branch of the Inquisition that would be one thing, but there would still be the need to gain the approval of every nation's leaders, see to the building or acquisition of new quarters for the reformed Circles (or whatever you want to call the mage dormitories), delegate soldiers to permanently oversee the mages (which are basically just Templars but with different names and less anti-magic powers in most cases)... seems like a waste of time to completely get rid of the system and then rebuild it in pretty much the same way...  and again, this assumes a lot of authority that I am not convinced the Inquisition actually has.  If you do have that much power, I seriously doubt that you'll have time for much else if you take on such a responsibility...

 

I don't disagree but one thing I'm noticing is the Inquisition seems to be a MUCH-MUCH larger organization than I thought it was going to be with armies under its command and not just temporary ones but a continent-wide series of forces and permanent members. I wonder if this is going to end up being like the Specters from Mass Effect.

Inquisitors speaking with BIG authority everywhere and having the resources to make no one want to tick them off.



#330
Icy Magebane

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I don't disagree but one thing I'm noticing is the Inquisition seems to be a MUCH-MUCH larger organization than I thought it was going to be with armies under its command and not just temporary ones but a continent-wide series of forces and permanent members. I wonder if this is going to end up being like the Specters from the previous ones.

We'll see about that.  I'm a bit skeptical that these soldiers won't want to return home at some point, especially since the Inquisition exists at the mercy of various nations.  We don't have land of our own, after all... at least, not that I know of.  Without an economy backing us up, our influence can only extend so far...


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#331
pengwin21

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I'm thinking either the mages or the templars will have to be defeated, depending on who we side with, given the recent Skyhold article and what Cameron Lee said about siding with either mages or templars.

 

At least the option to side with either group allows pro-templar and pro-mage players to pursue a specific ideology that they personally agree with - either templars being in charge, or mages governing themselves (which was the entire point of the Magi Boon that the Hero of Ferelden could advocate for). It no longer has to be some debate that people argue about in the forums without consensus, but rather something players can pursue once and for all in the narrative of Inquisition.

 

 

I'm hoping if forced to choose sides that players will have the option to choose the level of extremism, supporting Templars and the Circle isn't the same as annuling all mages and supporting mage freedom isn't the same as destroying the Templars. Players seem to have a wide range of opinions on the matter.



#332
LobselVith8

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I'm hoping if forced to choose sides that players will have the option to choose the level of extremism, supporting Templars and the Circle isn't the same as annuling all mages and supporting mage freedom isn't the same as destroying the Templars. Players seem to have a wide range of opinions on the matter.

 

There are certainly people who have a multitude of opinions on the matter on both sides of the fence. As for Inquisition, I suppose it'll depend on whether the templars or mages have multiple leaders representing different ideologies who we can side with - particularly if Fiona and Lambert are gone.



#333
The Baconer

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It would be easier to instead replace and overhaul the Seekers.

 

For one, recruiting both mundanes and mages could help break up the "Templar 2.0" syndrome the previous organization had, as well as allowing for more creative and effective investigation methods.


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#334
Icy Magebane

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It would be easier to instead replace and overhaul the Seekers.

 

For one, recruiting both mundanes and mages could help break up the "Templar 2.0" syndrome the previous organization had, as well as allowing for more creative and effective investigation methods.

I've been in favor of the mages taking a hand in their own policing for some time... the idea of trustworthy mages joining the Seekers is interesting.  If Irving could grow to an old man without becoming possessed or using forbidden magic, other mages can as well.  The trustworthy mages should be allowed to apply for such positions, as they can do more good as soldiers than sitting in towers.  It would also be nice to have some positive examples of mages out there so that young Templars don't develop such strong negative feelings towards them.

 

I'm not so sure if something like that would ever actually be implemented, but if the system is going to be overhauled, we may as well think outside the box... the problem, of course, is that any potential reforms are already programmed into the game, and I don't have much confidence that they'll be quite this progressive.  We'll see...


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#335
Willowhugger

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We'll see about that.  I'm a bit skeptical that these soldiers won't want to return home at some point, especially since the Inquisition exists at the mercy of various nations.  We don't have land of our own, after all... at least, not that I know of.  Without an economy backing us up, our influence can only extend so far...

 

I wouldn't be surprised if the Inquisition becomes a major power in the Free Marches like the Wardens in the Anderfels.



#336
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I wouldn't be surprised if the Inquisition becomes a major power in the Free Marches like the Wardens in the Anderfels.

 

This seems likely. The Chantry all but ruled the fractured city-states of the Marches (that's what they got for not compromising on a centralized government). The non-secular governments of the Marches will all be clamoring for someone to protect their interests from big bad Orlais, Nevarra, and Ferelden due to the power vaccum left in the wake of recent events. That's where the Inquisition steps in.



#337
Jedi Master of Orion

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That strikes me as unlikely. The Wardens are a power in the Anderfels because the darkspawn are endless. The Veil Tear threat presumably is not.



#338
SgtSteel91

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This seems likely. The Chantry all but ruled the fractured city-states of the Marches (that's what they got for not compromising on a centralized government). The non-secular governments of the Marches will all be clamoring for someone to protect their interests from big bad Orlais, Nevarra, and Ferelden due to the power vaccum left in the wake of recent events. That's where the Inquisition steps in.

 

Do they? I know it was explicitly said that Kirkwall is under the thumb of the Templars and most of Tantervale was close to the Chantry I don't think that's enough to extrapolate that the Chantry calls the shots in the entire region.



#339
Aimi

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The Chantry all but ruled the fractured city-states of the Marches (that's what they got for not compromising on a centralized government).


This isn't actually true. From what we see of the actions of secular governments in the Marches, the Chantry is not the driving force behind them, nor does it command a particularly outsize amount of support or allegiance.

Consider Viscount Dumar, who came to power through templar intervention in city politics and therefore would be expected to be as much a puppet of the Chantry as anyone. Yet there is no point in DA2 where Dumar's actions are depicted as being ordered by the Chantry, or even particularly in Chantry interests. Even Codex entries about Dumar focus on his role as a negotiator and a balancer rather than claiming him to be a templar or clerical puppet. There is in fact a faction of the Kirkwall clergy that is violently opposed to Dumar, up to and including a murderous attack on his son.

Only when Dumar is dead do the templars of Kirkwall exert obvious power over city government. That in itself is fairly instructive: Meredith only gains control when secular authorities do not exist, and when there is no obvious secular successor waiting in the wings.

Our other major example is Starkhaven. The Vael family, when it ruled, apparently had a tradition of piety. DA2's Codex states that they always sent off one of the children to the Chantry for a clerical or lay career. This is, in and of itself, nothing particularly indicative of Chantry control. Medieval European rulers often stashed extraneous children in monasteries or had them ordained as prelates. In certain circumstances, a noble family might even found a monastery as a personal sinecure, into which a portion of family wealth would be deposited for the monks - mostly members of the family itself - to enjoy. While it's true that family members in the Chantry would certainly expose the family to more Chantry 'influence', that's hardly avoidable as a human in Thedas, and that 'influence' flows both ways.

As with Dumar, there is no actual evidence in the games that the Chantry dictated the affairs of Starkhaven under the Vaels.

One might argue in terms of abstraction. If there is no strong government in the Marches, then it would only make sense for the Chantry to gain in power.

Unfortunately, such an argument would rely on some misidentification. There is no central government in the Marches, but there are powerful local governments with reasonably wide reach. Kirkwall's city guards are nearly omnipresent, and the government appears to take in a wide array of taxes from various sources. Kirkwall's viscount also apparently has significant control over city property ownership, as he is able to effectively 'gift' the arishok an entire compound in a relatively important part of the city. This is really fairly heady stuff for a medieval civic government to be able to do. It's not clear to me where the Chantry would insert itself into the proceedings in a way that a king or emperor or archon would normally do.

I'd also question the notion that the Chantry is necessarily stronger where secular government is weak. Historical example from human history suggests an alternative: that the Chantry might be much stronger when it is closely connected to an existing powerful central secular government. Late classical and medieval Europe abound with examples: the caesaropapist Roman Empire, the Byzantine-Orthodox hybrid state that developed from the late eighth century onward, the Kingdom of France under the rule of Louis IX. One might suggest that Chantry power in Orlais far outstrips anything it might possess in the Marches, due to the proximity of the Divine, the Divine's relevance as an actor in the Game, and the close relationship between the Chantry and the imperial Orlesian state. Those historical examples also cut both ways. There are some examples of religious authorities supplanting secular ones in medieval Europe, sure. There are also plenty of examples of religious authorities failing to do so, even when there is a vast secular power vacuum to exploit. (The history of Germany from the late thirteenth century onward is instructive here.)

Obviously the Chantry is a huge part of the events of Dragon Age II, and in various forms it plays a highly important role in the final cataclysm at the end of Act III. But I wouldn't jump from that to claiming that the Chantry in the Marches "all but rules". That seems to me to be taking our limited evidence entirely too far.
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#340
ilikesocks

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I'm thinking something like in ME3 with the Geth and Quarians meaning that if one made the right choices there should be a peace option when handling the Mage-Templar war
I really don't want to side with one party because both have done terrible things and made mistakes (like with the Geth and Quarians) and I don't agree fully with either one of them

Anyone agree? What are you hoping for? I would rather have the option to tell both parties to go to hell instead of having to choose again (like at the end of DA2)


I agree. I'm hoping it's not just one or the other but maybe a re-write, so to speak, of the rules after Shyte hits the fan.

Here's my thing: I think it would be really nifty to have mages free but have the option to still be taught the things they would learn during their time in the circle and that the Templars would serve only as their protectors (in cases of villagers who fear mages and trying to harm/kill them.) Basically, and don't giggle at me, but Hogwarts. XD Except, maybe it's a daily thing and they get to go home to their families each day (as in real life) or they only go to this school for a certain amount of time and come home during holidays and summer time. My canon in DA2 is siding with the Templars (even though I've sided with the mages many times as well) and it'll be interesting to see if my vote changes in DAI IF it's only a 'choose one or the other' type thing.

That being said, didn't Cameron Lee (could be mistaken) say in an interview that this conflict will be solved early in the game? Re-reading the game informer article from earlier today, I highly doubt there will be peace seeing as Mike Laidlaw said that once the rubble is cleared and we can actually get to different parts of skyhold, we can fill a tower up with mages OR Templars. Sad panda.

#341
Battlebloodmage

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Kill all the mages and templars. There's your peace option.



#342
LobselVith8

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I agree. I'm hoping it's not just one or the other but maybe a re-write, so to speak, of the rules after Shyte hits the fan.

Here's my thing: I think it would be really nifty to have mages free but have the option to still be taught the things they would learn during their time in the circle and that the Templars would serve only as their protectors (in cases of villagers who fear mages and trying to harm/kill them.) Basically, and don't giggle at me, but Hogwarts. XD Except, maybe it's a daily thing and they get to go home to their families each day (as in real life) or they only go to this school for a certain amount of time and come home during holidays and summer time. My canon in DA2 is siding with the Templars (even though I've sided with the mages many times as well) and it'll be interesting to see if my vote changes in DAI IF it's only a 'choose one or the other' type thing.

That being said, didn't Cameron Lee (could be mistaken) say in an interview that this conflict will be solved early in the game? Re-reading the game informer article from earlier today, I highly doubt there will be peace seeing as Mike Laidlaw said that once the rubble is cleared and we can actually get to different parts of skyhold, we can fill a tower up with mages OR Templars. Sad panda.

 

Yes, Cameron Lee said, "You can bring an end to the conflict between the mages and the templars once and for all very early on in the game. You can align with one of those."

 

You can see the interview here, specifically at the 1:40 mark.

 


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#343
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Do they? I know it was explicitly said that Kirkwall is under the thumb of the Templars and most of Tantervale was close to the Chantry I don't think that's enough to extrapolate that the Chantry calls the shots in the entire region.

 

I mean... would an independent city-state have the muscle to push out the Templars? Especially if the other city-states were Chantry adherents with it's influence residing in the upper echelons of society. For the Free Marches to rule itself it would have to band together to expel the Chantry, which I'm guessing they wouldn't do out of fear of an Exalted March.



#344
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Obviously the Chantry is a huge part of the events of Dragon Age II, and in various forms it plays a highly important role in the final cataclysm at the end of Act III. But I wouldn't jump from that to claiming that the Chantry in the Marches "all but rules". That seems to me to be taking our limited evidence entirely too far.

 

Point taken. 



#345
Jazzpha

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The more I think about it, the more it feels to me like the Inquisition will wind up being Thedas' NATO-- a peacekeeping force bankrolled by several powers in a variety of ways in order to keep the Inquisition itself from serving one master. (And yes, I realize that's an oversimplification of NATO, but it's the best I can come up with at the moment)

 

As others have mentioned, the money to run the Inquisition has to come from somewhere. I assume we'll start out functioning like a mercenary army/PMC more than anything, but once we have enough of our own power/influence/alliances the Inquisition basically becomes one massive, (relatively) autonomous standing army.

 

The snag in the analogy being that the Inquisitor, as the PC in the game, can't be held absolutely accountable to a superior governing body, since that would severely hamper player agency in the game. But once the Fade Tear is sealed, I can see the Inquisition functioning mainly as a diplomatic, intercessionary force-- like the Jedi Order, I guess?

 

But anyway, to stay more directly OT, I think what we're able to do with regards to resolving the Mage/Templar War will hinge completely on how powerful the Inquisition is at the point when the game forces the endgame of that arc. If the Inquisition is weak, I'd imagine our diplomatic power would be minimal. But if we're strong enough, the Mages and Templars both might consider our stances to have a lot more weight to them.


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#346
Star fury

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There will be peace when the mages will rule over the mundanes benevolently. A peaceful land, a quiet people.

#347
Willowhugger

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That strikes me as unlikely. The Wardens are a power in the Anderfels because the darkspawn are endless. The Veil Tear threat presumably is not.

 

I dunno, it depends on what sort of long-term consequences of the Veil Tears are. The game is very much about leaving long-term effects on the game world so I wouldn't be surprised if there's a permanent large-number of spirits which need to be dealt with. As for the Free Marches and the Inquisition becoming a power there, I can see it happening as the Inquisition would be the single most powerful military force in that region. I don't see them directly ruling the territories so much as I don't think the city-states in the region would be able to oppose the Inquisition in any real decisions they'd make.

Sort of like the situation when the Count was still alive and the Templars were so powerful the Count had to "strongly consider" their position.

 

Of course, if Hawke lives they may become Viscount (Mage or otherwise) and Sebastian may become ruler of Starkhaven. Both being likely able to stand up against the Inquisition.



#348
Bayonet Hipshot

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I myself would like a peace option.

 

However, it seems Bioware might be taking a leaf out of The Witcher 2's book and from the info we have been getting such as one choice can lock out the other and we will be able to resolve the mage-templar war early, I think this will be like Roche or Iorveth in Witcher 2. 

 

At least, that is the vibe I am getting. 


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#349
Uccio

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I'm going to rip my shirt if mages freedom is the evil option.

#350
wright1978

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If we're going to be resolving Mage-Templar issue, then I'd like options for how to do so. Obviously those solutions should be more nuanced than kill all mages or Templars. Don't really want one option for peace but variations on the basis of solution.
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