629 réponses à ce sujet

[Br3admax]

Chantry scholarships for those who wish to leave? 

Why should they? The Chantry has no obligation or reason to fund any of these things for non mages. 

 

 

if its emotional reasons then its on their heads not the system. Leave and visit your folks if you don't want to live in isolation but cant live without them. I imagine the port/nearest town would become quite the trade center given what mages offer the rest of the world in the form of enchantment and potions, dont want to be an outcast go live there?

I don't think you quite understand how people work. No one wants to just pickup and leave, and no one should be forced away when they pose no threat to other. If they wanted another mage aristocracy, they'd stay in Tevinter. 

[Hibernating]

The problem with all the mentioned choices was, that they didn't have any consequences in the game. You get a small mention in the epilogue what happens to orzammar and vigil's keep/amarathene depending on your choice. Same for the architect (maybe in inquisition, but i doubt it). There are no consequences for the further story depending on your choice.

 

If we are talking in game effects, then the Elves-Werewolves and Quarian-Geth doesn't effect that much either. You don't need to use either in game after that and once you are finished with the quest you don't ever have to run into them again.

How about Kaiden-Ashley for a choice with long reaching implications and no 3rd option?

Loghain living or dying? the grey wardens get a military genius, but he's responsible for the death of a king and you will lose Alistair.
Choosing the terrorists or the hostages in ME1 Bring down the sky?

[Willowhugger]

My solution is mages should be all required to attend the Circles to educate themselves in their power.

You get freedom after proving yourself. Not necessarily the Harrowing but something similar.

 

The Rite of Tranquility should be outlawed.

 

Blood Magic should remain outlawed.

And the Inquisition should be in charge of rooting out abominations and evil doers. Inquisitors should be composed of those trained as Templars, Mages, and Arcane Warriors.

[raging_monkey]

My solution is mages should be all required to attend the Circles to educate themselves in their power.You get freedom after proving yourself. Not necessarily the Harrowing but something similar. The Rite of Tranquility should be outlawed. Blood Magic should remain outlawed.And the Inquisition should be in charge of rooting out abominations and evil doers. Inquisitors should be composed of those trained as Templars, Mages, and Arcane Warriors.

i hope phylacteries will still be in place thats my only concern with mage freedom no way to track them if they go rogue

[Hibernating]

Why should they? The Chantry has no obligation or reason to fund any of these things for non mages. 

I don't think you quite understand how people work. No one wants to just pickup and leave, and no one should be forced away when they pose no threat to other. If they wanted another mage aristocracy, they'd stay in Tevinter. 

 

I imagine maintaining the circle takes a fair amount of chantry funds, abolishing it would save money. The isolationist option would be part of the peace treaty and this would be a term?

All mages pose a huge threat (if that's what your addressing there), every time they sleep a demon will try to talk them into going nuts, tempt them with power or trick them. If we are talking about mages being forced to pick up and leave, yeah it sucks to be a mage, your a threat and a walking time bomb so there are consequences to your existance. Should Typhoid Mary have been allowed to roam the world, despite having done nothing wrong? The good of the many outways the good of a few.
Almost every child will leave home for somewhere else? those who don't are considered strange.

As for this isolation area becoming a Tevinter, its mages ruling other mages or people who don't want to leave. If they start trying to stop non-mages leaving, threaten them with the right of annulment. 

 

My solution is mages should be all required to attend the Circles to educate themselves in their power.

You get freedom after proving yourself. Not necessarily the Harrowing but something similar.

 

The Rite of Tranquility should be outlawed.

 

Blood Magic should remain outlawed.

And the Inquisition should be in charge of rooting out abominations and evil doers. Inquisitors should be composed of those trained as Templars, Mages, and Arcane Warriors.

 

And those mages who want the Rite of Tranquility? Owain in the mages tower underwent it because he knew he could not resist the temptation.

The Harrowing is literally just making sure you are not weak enough to accept a demon, there is nothing wrong with it.

 

And sure your way works, but reasonably often a mage will go nuts, become an abomination and murder a village. This will happen because you have deemed that the freedom of a few is more important than the safety of everyone.

[Br3admax]

I imagine maintaining the circle takes a fair amount of chantry funds, abolishing it would save money. The isolationist option would be part of the peace treaty and this would be a term?

All mages pose a huge threat (if that's what your addressing there), every time they sleep a demon will try to talk them into going nuts, tempt them with power or trick them. If we are talking about mages being forced to pick up and leave, yeah it sucks to be a mage, your a threat and a walking time bomb so there are consequences to your existance. Should Typhoid Mary have been allowed to roam the world, despite having done nothing wrong? The good of the many outways the good of a few.
Almost every child will leave home for somewhere else? those who don't are considered strange.

lolno. First, children are children for a pretty long time.  No one just packs up and leaves the first sign of being "normal." Children have to be raised, and aside from the parents, no one is likely to do that for a mundane. I don't care about mages living in Circles because those are regulated, and for the most part by all accounts, were rather the middle ground. The Circle of Magi was made by mages for mages. The idea that we should just let mages run off into the hills, just because, won't work because those with power will always use it. Such is a fact of life. Without someone to keep them in check, mages will always try to exploit others to achieve their goals, because despite all their power, mages are still human/elves/qunari

 

 

As for this isolation area becoming a Tevinter, its mages ruling other mages or people who don't want to leave. If they start trying to stop non-mages leaving, threaten them with the right of annulment. 

 

That's not going to work. No one should rule anywhere just because of the strength of their magical abilities, and if we're going to threaten them with our laws, why did we let them flee and govern in the first place? 

[Willowhugger]

i hope phylacteries will still be in place thats my only concern with mage freedom no way to track them if they go rogue

 

I dunno, those seem like they can also be abused horribly.

 

And yes, the system won't be perfect.

But there's no perfect system in the world as is, either RL or for leadership in Thedas.

 

As for keeping the Rite of Tranquility, I think that's flat-out inhumane versus execution.

Even when a subject would prefer it.

[Hibernating]

lolno. First, children are children for a pretty long time.  No one just packs up and leaves the first sign of being "normal." Children have to be raised, and aside from the parents, no one is likely to do that for a mundane. I don't care about mages living in Circles because those are regulated, and for the most part by all accounts, were rather the middle ground.

 

The Circle of Magi was made by mages for mages. The idea that we should just let mages run off into the hills, just because, won't work because those with power will always use it. Such is a fact of life. Without someone to keep them in check, mages will always try to exploit others to achieve their goals, because despite all their power, mages are still human/elves/qunari

That's not going to work. No one should rule anywhere just because of the strength of their magical abilities, and if we're going to threaten them with our laws, why did we let them flee and govern in the first place? 

 

Children are children till lets say 16-21 then they leave home and start their own life. As you said in an earlier post, children of mages don't automatically become mages so non-mage children on isolation island wouldn't be that uncommon. They get raised by their folks, have a childhood, depending on how many of them there are get their own private non-mage school and when they are at a mature age decide if they want to live in a society which is prominently mages or go have a life of their own. Much like a normal human being would.

The circle doesn't work, the no children, no family and cant even go outside the tower for many of them leads to isolation and separation. This is probably why the rates of abominations are so high. It didn't work in kirkwall and has now started a rebellion which looks irreversible back to circle states.

Yes, like all mortal beings they will try to further themselves at the cost of others. On a island where the majority of the population are mages they are doing this on a level playing field, they are trying to further themselves against people who have the same upper hand that they do.

Why would it automatically fall to the strongest mage rules? Does the strongest warrior rule Fereldan? A mage who was weak but can gain many mage supporters would be in a better position to one mage who was incredible strong. 

We let them flee in the first place so they could have families, friends, go for a walk outside. You let them have this island so they can sleep without templars ruling their lives and so they can have the right to self governance WITHOUT threatening all the innocent people in Thedas.

[Hibernating]

I dunno, those seem like they can also be abused horribly.

 

And yes, the system won't be perfect.

But there's no perfect system in the world as is, either RL or for leadership in Thedas.

 

As for keeping the Rite of Tranquility, I think that's flat-out inhumane versus execution.

Even when a subject would prefer it.

But risk/reward for this system is terrible, you are giving freedom for a 1 in 100 max (I've actually never seen a source about mage rates in children) at the cost of lives. A lot of lives.

So we should execute or encourage suicide for mages who know they will give into temptation rather than life, even if a muted lobotomised life?

[Willowhugger]

But risk/reward for this system is terrible, you are giving freedom for a 1 in 100 max (I've actually never seen a source about mage rates in children) at the cost of lives. A lot of lives.

So we should execute or encourage suicide for mages who know they will give into temptation rather than life, even if a muted lobotomised life?

That logic assumes muggle lives are worth more than mages.

 

Muggles have no chance of survival when things hit the fan without mages.

 

So if you need to exterminate someone, the Infamous option is probably the best.

[raging_monkey]

I dunno, those seem like they can also be abused horribly. And yes, the system won't be perfect.But there's no perfect system in the world as is, either RL or for leadership in Thedas. As for keeping the Rite of Tranquility, I think that's flat-out inhumane versus execution.Even when a subject would prefer it.

we used to lobotmize extremly dangerous criminals so perhaps it can used as a punishment? And we have aenor for mage prison thoughts

[Hibernating]

That logic assumes muggle lives are worth more than mages.

 

Muggles have no chance of survival when things hit the fan without mages.

 

So if you need to exterminate someone, the Infamous option is probably the best.

 

No its not, its assuming there are more "muggles" than mages. You are arguing for the freedom of mages to live freely, this will result in a lot of deaths of innocent people/muggles. I'm arguing that for the safety and freedom of the majority of the world, a tiny percent of the population remain restricted in what they can and cannot do.

And to your last point, yes. If you were given a choice between every mage or every non-mage it would be a no brainer given the population difference between the two.

[Br3admax]

Children are children till lets say 16-21 then they leave home and start their own life. As you said in an earlier post, children of mages don't automatically become mages so non-mage children on isolation island wouldn't be that uncommon. They get raised by their folks, have a childhood, depending on how many of them there are get their own private non-mage school and when they are at a mature age decide if they want to live in a society which is prominently mages or go have a life of their own. Much like a normal human being would.
 

Except the other children will have magic, while these would not. Make whatever scenario you want to, that won't end well.

The circle doesn't work, the no children, no family and cant even go outside the tower for many of them leads to isolation and separation. This is probably why the rates of abominations are so high. It didn't work in kirkwall and has now started a rebellion which looks irreversible back to circle states.

Yes, like all mortal beings they will try to further themselves at the cost of others. On a island where the majority of the population are mages they are doing this on a level playing field, they are trying to further themselves against people who have the same upper hand that they do

Except the number of abominations isn't high, and the Circle worked just about everywhere else. The only times when it didn't, a fanatic started trying to overthrow templar authority, with most of the innocent and content mages caught in the crossfire. 

 

Why would it automatically fall to the strongest mage rules? Does the strongest warrior rule Fereldan? A mage who was weak but can gain many mage supporters would be in a better position to one mage who was incredible strong. 

 

Comparing a warrior to a mage is foolish within itself, but generally in magical societies those with the most power rule the longest. Duels happen in the streets in Tevinter. Your mage utopia would be no different. 

 

 

We let them flee in the first place so they could have families, friends, go for a walk outside. You let them have this island so they can sleep without templars ruling their lives and so they can have the right to self governance WITHOUT threatening all the innocent people in Thedas.

They could do all of those things in the Circle, families aside which should be reformed, so I'm not seeing your point. Templars didn't rule their lives, they ruled their lives. Templars observed and made sure that the mages didn't threaten the rest of Thedas, and then protected them from those on the outside who wanted to kill them. You really have no point here. 

[Hibernating]

1) Except the other children will have magic, while these would not. Make whatever scenario you want to, that won't end well.

 

2) Except the number of abominations isn't high, and the Circle worked just about everywhere else. The only times when it didn't, a fanatic started trying to overthrow templar authority, with most of the innocent and content mages caught in the crossfire. 

 

3) Comparing a warrior to a mage is foolish within itself, but generally in magical societies those with the most power rule the longest. Duels happen in the streets in Tevinter. Your mage utopia would be no different. 

 

4) They could do all of those things in the Circle, families aside which should be reformed, so I'm not seeing your point. Templars didn't rule their lives, they ruled their lives. Templars observed and made sure that the mages didn't threaten the rest of Thedas, and then protected them from those on the outside who wanted to kill them. You really have no point here. 

 

1)It might end in bullying or harassment, but how would it be any different to most education? And as I said, separate schools for mage children and non-mage children. Kids don't show magical properties till 6-12 so the first couple years of their lives would be intertwined and when the powers started to appear, they would already have friendships/bonds. The division often wouldnt be that great.

 

2) we are giving 2 examples in the DA universe. Fereldan which did seem to be a well functioning tower yet still had a huge number of students join Uldred in his attempt to take over the tower. The other one we see is Kirkwall, as I posted earlier, every single mage you encounter not you or Bethany is a necromancer, bloodmage or abomination. There are almost no exceptions.  

 

3) in societies with Mages and civilians sure, mages will rise given their power and ability to manipulate. All mage societies could have order but you are right, they would probably devolve into the strongest rules. So? at this point they are ruling over other mages. Once again a small percent of the population.

 

4) Baring the top tier of mages (those in the College of Magi, who were allowed to leave to meet at the council meetings in Cumberland) you are not allowed to leave the tower/tower grounds. You are discouraged from relationships, but its not strictly enforced. If you do have children they are taken away from you regardless of if they are mages or not. If you allow mages to have kids in the tower, doesn't that counter your first point of how terrible it would be to be normal in an area dominated by mages?

 

My solution is about giving the mages a degree of freedom, the choice to have families, friends, build a house and live in it, own land and be something other than a mage. They can do this in isolation without threatening the millions of innocent folk who don't want to have anything to do with mages, and when one does go bad as they always will, it will be their issue to solve and their lives on the line. They will also be more capable of dealing with it being naturally powerful.

[Willowhugger]

No its not, its assuming there are more "muggles" than mages. You are arguing for the freedom of mages to live freely, this will result in a lot of deaths of innocent people/muggles. I'm arguing that for the safety and freedom of the majority of the world, a tiny percent of the population remain restricted in what they can and cannot do.

 

That's the thing, though. Said tiny percent is also much better equipped to survive in a very hostile world.

Darkspawn
Demons
Dragons
Now Trolls

While Mages are more dangerous than any normal human, their powers also make them more useful than any human and while you may take away their rights due to them being a threat.

They should have MORE rights to compensate for the fact they can protect humans better than any soldier.

[raging_monkey]

That's the thing, though. Said tiny percent is also much better equipped to survive in a very hostile world.DarkspawnDemonsDragonsNow TrollsWhile Mages are more dangerous than any normal human, their powers also make them more useful than any human and while you may take away their rights due to them being a threat.They should have MORE rights to compensate for the fact they can protect humans better than any soldier.

but the more you the more they may take

[Hibernating]

That's the thing, though. Said tiny percent is also much better equipped to survive in a very hostile world.

Darkspawn
Demons
Dragons
Now Trolls

While Mages are more dangerous than any normal human, their powers also make them more useful than any human and while you may take away their rights due to them being a threat.

They should have MORE rights to compensate for the fact they can protect humans better than any soldier.

 

-Darkspawn
We are not talking about Mages in the grey wardens. Separate entity entirely. The fact that the taint will kill them, the singular purpose of the organisation and how it is structured seems to discourage abominations. Also, darkspawn are too uncommon above ground anyway. If you are proposing that all circles exist in Orzimmar and the deep roads I think that would be a great idea, it keeps the mages contained and away from people, they have a source of lyrium for the templars and the mages and they can combat the blight.

-Demons
Literally will almost only ever happen when a mage is involved. And in the rare cases when they are not (Old tears in the veil) sure, they are more likely to be able to deal with it. You are going to encounter a lot more demons and breaches if you have no control over your mages through.

-Dragons
Were almost wiped out the first time around by Nevarrian hunters, without the help of mages (or if they did help it was not mentioned)

 

-Trolls
No idea, cant find any solid lore about them.

"They should have MORE rights" so basically Tevinter, where mages rule over everyone and are considered first class citizens because of what they are born with?

Baring the breach, which is an unknown, all these things CAN be dealt with by non-mages. In rare instances like blights or the breach sure, everyone's at risk so everyone fights. Why should this grant special privileges? If they don't fight they are going to die, and from what lore we have seen so far free mages CAUSED both the blights AND the breach. 

 

For your point to be valid, mages would have to prevent more deaths by being efficient at killing the evil things than they cause and that the inevitability of mages then ruling the world (again) would be worth it.
Lets for a moment ignore that mages caused the blights and the breach and consider it a "blank slate". The nations outside Tevinter thrive and survive and they do so well, they aren't constantly fighting for their own survival against nature. Your asking for a huge sacrifice in return for a small reward, unconstrained mages will go rogue and become abominations, these uncontained abominations will kill a lot of people. Mages, through bloodmagic and magic in general, will naturally take over a polical system with raw strength.

[AresKeith]

Absolutely not. The point of a roleplaying game isn't to try to iron out every conflict, run every chore and appease every NPC. The point of a roleplaying game is to roleplay. Roleplay a character who has their own convictions and morality and values. A character that has a defined stance on a international crisis in Thedas.
There should be no easy or comfortable choices in DAI. Those kinds of choices are bad RPG design. They don't promote roleplaying, they just promote narcissistic completionism.

Ummm because it's role playing means people would still pick the other opinions based on how their characters are

Saying it's a role playing game is kinda a weak argument

[Willowhugger]

To each their own.

I think mages do more good than evil.

And without them, Thedas is screwed.

[raging_monkey]

To each their own.I think mages do more good than evil.And without them, Thedas is screwed.

agreed but we cant do it willy-nilly maybe mixture of tevinter AND southern thedas barring the free marches(considered the extreme factions)

[mopotter]

i hope phylacteries will still be in place thats my only concern with mage freedom no way to track them if they go rogue

You don't have any way to track a sycophantic Templar, or plain ol evil doer.   I would destroy all phylacteries, would have destroyed mine along with Jowan's.  It's like putting chips in everyone, just ick, no. 

[raging_monkey]

You don't have any way to track a sycophantic Templar, or plain ol evil doer.   I would destroy all phylacteries, would have destroyed mine along with Jowan's.  It's like putting chips in everyone, just ick, no.

love the metaphor often feel the same. But how do track rogue magi would, word of mouth can only go so far. If you knowbanother way please tell me not too overly fond of a leash

[Ryzaki]

You don't have any way to track a sycophantic Templar, or plain ol evil doer.   I would destroy all phylacteries, would have destroyed mine along with Jowan's.  It's like putting chips in everyone, just ick, no. 

 

You do have a way of tracking rogue templars. Follow the lyrium. Eventually they will have to run to a source to keep up their habit.

[Hibernating]

You don't have any way to track a sycophantic Templar, or plain ol evil doer.   I would destroy all phylacteries, would have destroyed mine along with Jowan's.  It's like putting chips in everyone, just ick, no. 

 

A rogue templar can't do that much damage (pre-red lyrium), plain ol evil doer cant do that much damage either. Abominations can wipe out towns and bring hordes of demons into the world, Phylacteries are a fair system to prevent escapees.

[Willowhugger]

I think post-Elder Ones, the Inquisitors will be the people who investigate/deal with/kill Blood Mages/Demons/Dark Magic with the Templars/Mages dissolved either way. Either the Templars will be absorbed completely into the Inquisition or the Mages Circles will be. Both organizations will cease to exist, however.