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Elven culture and sacrifices for the Andrastian romances


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#76
LobselVith8

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Pff. People romance their mages with Fenris, their blood-mages with Leliana, their devoted andrastians pro-templars with Anders and suddenly the dalish Inquisitor, who is no longer a dalish really (at least for the time being) is suddenly a big no-no. Funny as hell.

 

Hm?

 

My Surana Warden romanced Morrigan, and my apostate Champion romanced Merrill (which I even pointed out earlier in this thread). I'm confused as to why you're stating this when I'm specifically addressing a traditionalist Dalish character playthrough. My reasons for creating this thread are the complications that would arise with a romance with either Cassandra or Josephine for a traditionalist Dalish, given the sacrifices Merrill made to be with Hawke.

 

Also, you don't stop being Dalish simply because you're not with the clan - it would require forsaking your cultural and religious beliefs to no longer be Dalish. Merrill is still Dalish while living in Kirkwall; she believes in the Creators, even if she's unorthodox about some of their cultural values.


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#77
Ryzaki

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I think Fenris is taking exception to the fact that Merrill is implying the Dalish are somehow freer and better than City Elves.

 

He knows PERFECTLY WELL the Dalish haven't done a thing for City Elves.

 

He's also an Andrastrian so there's also that. Anders showed some serious racism when he was surprised that Fenris believed in the Chant. He assumed, like most Thedans it seemed, that elvish Andrastrianism is insincere. Sebastian seems to be one of the few Andrastrians who assumes that Fenris and other elves are sincere.

 

I think Fenris is the kind of elf who is looking forward rather than at the past.

 

I liked this but I don't agree with the bolded.

 

It's more like Anders assumed Fenris wasn't religious because of his experiences. Which isn't much better but more understandable?



#78
Icy Magebane

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I'm not certain why you feel that way. If you're comparing the Dalish to their city brethren, then I disagree. Some of the Dalish look down on city elves, but some of the city elves look down on the Dalish as "savages", and even view elves who try to live outside the Alienage as "flat ears". According to hahren Sarethia of the Highever Alienage, "Here, we're among family. We look out for each other. Here, we do what we can to remember the old ways. The flat-ears who have gone out there, they're stuck. They'll never be human, and they've gone and thrown away being elven, too. So where does that leave them? Nowhere."

 

However, the flaws held by some of the populace of Dalish and Andrastian elves doesn't condemn them or their cultures in their entirety.

 

If you're addressing the Dalish in terms of their relations to humans, things are simply antagonistic with Andrastian humans, for a number of reasons. However, there is supposed to be a semi-permanent colony of Dalish living near Rivain, with humans who follow the Natural Order. Gaider said, "A few are quite benevolent and live in peace with nearby humans -- the Rivaini city of Llomerryn is known to have a semi-permanent Dalish encampment on its outskirts, and trade with the elves for their crafts is encouraged."

What I'm addressing is the idea that the Dalish culture promotes a monolithic view of the elves that excludes any possibility of adaptation or compromise.  Each clan that we've seen has reinforced this idea.  Each clan has voiced, in one way or another, that the Dalish adherence to the old ways is superior to the city elves' attempts to become accepted by and live among humans.  Whatever the city elves may feel in response to this is not the issue, and I'm not even making a claim of which viewpoint is "right."  I am simply pointing out the fact that the Dalish are inflexible and will not accept changes to their culture that are out of line with the old ways that they have been practicing for centuries.  We see a lot of deviation in how strict these cultures can be, but they are all in agreement on the basics... city elves have no place within the Dalish clans until they first agree to adapt to the Dalish culture.  Is that not an intolerant, supremacist mindset?


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#79
DeityDi

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I believe Anders found Fenris believing to be surprising.

 

Anders is genuinely shocked when the conversation comes up about suicide as an alternative to slavery and Fenris says that he doesn't commit suicide because he's worried about the afterlife. He then quotes a bit of Andraste Chant and Anders is surprised that Fenris believes in the Chant. Fenris goes on to say that he has to believe it as some things have to be worse than slavery.

He didn't quote the Chant... he only says that suicide is a sin in the eyes of the Maker.

And Anders replies "do you actually believe in that?" Fenris - "I try to. Some things must be worse than slavery." Anders - "Some things are worse than death"

 

Tis all have nothing to do with the elves or the faith, in fact. Fenris just wanted to believe that something had to be worse otherwise it all was for nothing and he should've kill himself instead. Anders tries to believe that some things should be worse than death otherwise all of his work was also for nothing.

When Fenris speaks to Sebastian he question Sebastian's and andrastians beliefs. So no, he does not believe at all. 



#80
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Fenris takes everything Merrill says in the worst way possible; he makes it clear he doesn't like her for three entire Acts.

 

However, trying to say that Merrill has a sense of superiority over others is incredibly disingenuous of you. Merrill is also the person who tells Fenris that the plight of the Kirkwall elves matter, she's one of the people who thinks that Kelder should die to protect the children from a serial killer, and she befriends people living in the Alienage - which is why she suggests that Sebastian should name his bow after a cranky woman she knows in the Alienage, and why she reassures Nyssa that Hawke and her are there to help.

 

Meanwhile, Fenris lives alone in his comfy mansion, doesn't want to help others unless Hawke orders it, constantly looks down his nose at other elves--in fact, in Gaider's Short Story, Fenris mentally sneers at free elves for "squandering their freedom." City elves for living like "frightened cattle" and Dalish for "grub[ing] in the dirt." That's right, Fenris flat out looks down on all free elves, city and Dalish, and flat out refuses to help other elves when Merrill tries to encourage him to do it.

 

  • Merrill: You never come to the alienage, Fenris.
  • Fenris: I don't live in the alienage.
  • Merrill: Don't you care about the plight of our people? Not even a little bit?
  • Fenris: I don't need to visit the alienage to know what they suffer. I know it better than you.
  • Merrill: I've lived there for years! I see it firsthand!
  • Fenris: And I lived it.

 

... And yet, as Merrill points out, she lives there and has been living there for years. She is living it. She hasn't "lived it" passed tense, she "is living it" present tense. She herself is also actually doing something to try to help her people. He just sneers down his nose and refuses to come over or help others just because he used to have it worse, but doesn't anymore. (I'm sure most elves would kill for the chance to say "I lived it" passed tense, not present tense.)

 

And in case you doubt that, just get a look at his comment in Mark of the Assassin.

 

  • Fenris: You are too willing to involve yourself in the affairs of others, Hawke.
  • Fenris: Each time you put yourself at risk. One day you will not be so lucky.
  • Hawke: You have a better idea?
  • Fenris: Guard what you have. Keep your head low.

 

And yet, getting involved in the affairs of others is how Hawke got to helping Fenris, and Fenris got to following Hawke, in the first place. Fenris is okay with Hawke getting involved in his affairs, and risking him/herself to help him against Danarius, but not only does Fenris himself not help other people who need assistance the way he was helped when he was in trouble, but he disparages Hawke helping other people despite repeatedly asking for and receiving help from Hawke.

 

Who's the bigger snob? The girl who says something that can be interpreted as a bit elitist and superior but otherwise spends all her time actually trying to interact and help others, or the guy who sneers down his nose at every elf and refuses to help out or show any empathy or compassion for others?


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#81
Willowhugger

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When Fenris speaks to Sebastian he question Sebastian's and andrastians beliefs. So no, he does not believe at all.

 

Fenris is attending church according to Sebastian.

So I don't get where you get that.



#82
Jedi Master of Orion

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In so far as being part of the alienage community, and not having the protection and understanding that brings.

 

It isn't saying, they aren't racially elven, like the Dalish exclaim.

 

You're interpreting the city elf bigotry as being more benign than Dalish bigotry because you like the City Elves and hate the Dalish, but they are identical sentiments. If they have "thrown away being elven", then they aren't "true elves" either. In fact, they use the same exact slur for them that the Dalish have for City Elves.There is no reason to think there is a racial component to Dalish bigotry if there isn't one in the City Elf bigotry. PRetty much every single condemnation a Dalish elf has had for the  City Elves is that they are "no longer Elvhen" because they have forgotten their heritage and culture, not because they are a different race. 



#83
Jedi Master of Orion

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What I'm addressing is the idea that the Dalish culture promotes a monolithic view of the elves that excludes any possibility of adaptation or compromise.  Each clan that we've seen has reinforced this idea.  Each clan has voiced, in one way or another, that the Dalish adherence to the old ways is superior to the city elves' attempts to become accepted by and live among humans.  Whatever the city elves may feel in response to this is not the issue, and I'm not even making a claim of which viewpoint is "right."  I am simply pointing out the fact that the Dalish are inflexible and will not accept changes to their culture that are out of line with the old ways that they have been practicing for centuries.  We see a lot of deviation in how strict these cultures can be, but they are all in agreement on the basics... city elves have no place within the Dalish clans until they first agree to adapt to the Dalish culture.  Is that not an intolerant, supremacist mindset?

 

How can Dalish culture promote a monolithic view of elves when even other Dalish Clans don't agree on a single view of elves?


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#84
Ryzaki

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Shocking that the elven slave who was abused is more self centered and wanting to stay hidden and guard what he has than the elven mage growing with a loving family and even when she did move to the alienage has protection via Varric and Hawke.

 

Astounding really.

 

Also someone being more of a snob than you doesn't magically stop you from being a snob. (That said Fenris strikes me as far more of the "**** you got mine" type. Which isn't the greatest either.

 

Not to mention Merrill's sweet "half blood" comment regarding Feynriel.


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#85
DeityDi

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Fenris is attending church according to Sebastian.

So I don't get where you get that.

After several talks with Sebastian. He said he saw him once, well... That's all about it. Most of their banter wasn't like that. He was questioning his beliefes. Sebastian influenced him at some point, but he never was a devoted andrastian, nope.
 

Sebastian: Are you an Andrastian, Fenris?

Fenris: If I say no, will you attempt to convert me?

Sebastian: Many elves believe in the Maker. I ask only because I wonder if your experiences... soured your faith.

Fenris: My faith was never strong. It's difficult for a slave to have faith in someone who abandoned them.

Sebastian: The Maker didn't enslave you, Fenris.

Fenris: He didn't help me much, either.

Sebastian: And yet you stand here, free. Perhaps He helped you more than you think. - Act 2.

 

Sebastian: I saw you at the Chantry last week, Fenris, but I haven't seen you back since.

Fenris: I was only delivering something: you needn't concern yourself.

Sebastian: But you were praying. Or was that part of the delivery?

Fenris: I was... trying to blend in.

Sebastian: (Laughs) Oh, yes! You wouldn't want to ruin your reputation.

Fenris: Don't you have a city to re-conquer? - Act 3.



#86
Ryzaki

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After several talks with Sebastian. He said he saw him once, well... That's all about it. Most of their banter wasn't like that. He was questioning his beliefes. Sebastian influenced him at some point, but he never was a devoted andrastian, nope.
 

Sebastian: Are you an Andrastian, Fenris?

Fenris: If I say no, will you attempt to convert me?

Sebastian: Many elves believe in the Maker. I ask only because I wonder if your experiences... soured your faith.

Fenris: My faith was never strong. It's difficult for a slave to have faith in someone who abandoned them.

Sebastian: The Maker didn't enslave you, Fenris.

Fenris: He didn't help me much, either.

Sebastian: And yet you stand here, free. Perhaps He helped you more than you think. - Act 2.

 

Sebastian: I saw you at the Chantry last week, Fenris, but I haven't seen you back since.

Fenris: I was only delivering something: you needn't concern yourself.

Sebastian: But you were praying. Or was that part of the delivery?

Fenris: I was... trying to blend in.

Sebastian: (Laughs) Oh, yes! You wouldn't want to ruin your reputation.

Fenris: Don't you have a city to re-conquer? - Act 3.

 

 

He has dialogue with Anders where Anders pretty much asks him if he ever thought about killing himself. Fenris says he didn't because "In the eyes of the maker it's a crime." Anders goes "you don't you really believe that do you?" Fenris says something like "I try to. There must be things worse than slavery."



#87
Master Warder Z_

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You're interpreting the city elf bigotry as being more benign than Dalish bigotry because you like the City Elves and hate the Dalish, but they are identical sentiments. If they have "thrown away being elven", then they aren't "true elves" either. In fact, they use the same exact slur for them that the Dalish have for City Elves.There is no reason to think there is a racial component to Dalish bigotry if there isn't one in the City Elf bigotry. PRetty much every single condemnation a Dalish elf has had for the  City Elves is that they are "no longer Elvhen" because they have forgotten their heritage and culture, not because they are a different race. 

 

You are seriously considering the choice to leave the safety of the alienage and leaving city elf culture, to being born outside of the Dalish and therefore not elven.

 

Alrightie then.



#88
LobselVith8

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What I'm addressing is the idea that the Dalish culture promotes a monolithic view of the elves that excludes any possibility of adaptation or compromise.  Each clan that we've seen has reinforced this idea.  Each clan has voiced, in one way or another, that the Dalish adherence to the old ways is superior to the city elves' attempts to become accepted by and live among humans.  Whatever the city elves may feel in response to this is not the issue, and I'm not even making a claim of which viewpoint is "right."  I am simply pointing out the fact that the Dalish are inflexible and will not accept changes to their culture that are out of line with the old ways that they have been practicing for centuries.  We see a lot of deviation in how strict these cultures can be, but they are all in agreement on the basics... city elves have no place within the Dalish clans until they first agree to adapt to the Dalish culture.  Is that not an intolerant, supremacist mindset?

 

The entire premise of the Dalish is staying true to their cultural values and their religious beliefs, which are outlawed in Andrastian society - I don't see that as being intolerant when it's the crux of their existence; they aren't intended to be a pan-elven society. It's a life of hardship and struggle, trials and tribulations against great adversary, but a voluntary one you can leave at any time; it's why Zevran's mother, Arianni, young Zevran, Velanna, and Merrill could depart the clan and pursue their own goals.

 

Following the Creators, staying true to their elven culture - it's part of being Dalish. They're a religious group of nomadic wanderers who refuse to surrender their traditions or beliefs. Even the vallaslin are a mark of passage tied to their religion: "When the children of our people came of age, they earn the privilege of wearing the vallaslin, the blood writing. It sets us apart from the shemlen, and from the elves who have thrown their lot in with them. It reminds us that we will never again surrender our traditions and beliefs.

 

"The ritual deserves great reverence. The one who is to gain the vallaslin must prepare by meditating on the gods and the ways of our people, and by purifying the body and the skin. When the time comes, the keeper of the clan applies the blood writing. This is done in complete silence. Cries of pain are signs of weakness. If one cannot tolerate the pain of the blood writing, they are not ready to undertake the responsibilities of an adult. The Keeper may stop the ritual if they decide that the one gaining the vallaslin is not ready. There is no shame in this, for all children are different, and our ancestors once took centuries to come of age."


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#89
DeityDi

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He has dialogue with Anders where Anders pretty much asks him if he ever thought about killing himself. Fenris says he didn't because "In the eyes of the maker it's a crime." Anders goes "you don't you really believe that do you?" Fenris says something like "I try to. There must be things worse than slavery."

I know that, I quoted it above.

That dialogue is not about faith.



#90
Icy Magebane

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How can Dalish culture promote a monolithic view of elves when even other Dalish Clans don't agree on a single view of elves?

Am I missing something here?  All Dalish worship the same gods, attempt to hold onto whatever bits of lost lore they can find, allow themselves to be governed by a Keeper and Hahren, allow their mages to walk freely, trade clan members to address certain needs within the population of each clan, and gather together at regular intervals to discuss cultural matters and exchange wisdom.  Where is the cultural variation?


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#91
Ryzaki

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I know that, I quoted it above.

That dialogue is not about faith.

 

? I only see the Seb/Fenris ones. I probably missed it. Not primarily no but it to me suggest that yes Fenris had some religious leanings. They weren't strong as Sebastian's no but there were there.

 

Honestly I think the only disbelievers we had on our teams in the BW games have been Morrigan, Sten and Aveline. Not sure about Varric and Shale.  Everyone else varies from strong in their beliefs or light but they're still there.



#92
Jedi Master of Orion

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You are seriously considering the choice to leave the safety of the alienage and leaving city elf culture, to being born outside of the Dalish and therefore not elven.

 

Alrightie then.

 

They express very similar sentiment using the same exact language, so yes. They both use the term "flat ear" and both show contempt on the basis of no longer having the undefined quality of "elven-ness." They aren't that different if one doesn't presuppose that one elf faction is inherently sinister and the other is not. At one point Pol says that Alienage anti-Dalish sentiment is exactly like the Dalish condescension of City Elves.

 

EDIT: The other thing is that, if the Dalish were so obsessed with racial purity and they considered non Dalish-born elves to be racially different then no clan would ever accept any of them as one of their own even if they tried to join them and fit in.



#93
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Of course, being the Inquisitor itself is a sacrifice.

 

Will the Dalish accept a member of their clan who lives, works, and befriends humans?

No, of course not.

 

However, the Inquisitor may change the world for their entire race.

 

The Dalish Wardens Clan didn't seem to bothered. 


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#94
Jedi Master of Orion

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Am I missing something here?  All Dalish worship the same gods, attempt to hold onto whatever bits of lost lore they can find, allow themselves to be governed by a Keeper and Hahren, allow their mages to walk freely, trade clan members to address certain needs within the population of each clan, and gather together at regular intervals to discuss cultural matters and exchange wisdom.  Where is the cultural variation?

 

Mainly in the very question of how willing they are to compromise with city elves and humanity. Some Dalish are just bandits. Others are on friendly terms with human settlements. Some want to rejoin with the City Elves to become one people again. Others believe the City Elves are essentially irredeemably impure and should be separated from the Dalish forever. And there's all manner of opinions in between both.


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#95
DeityDi

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? I only see the Seb/Fenris ones. I probably missed it. Not primarily no but it to me suggest that yes Fenris had some religious leanings. They weren't strong as Sebastian's no but there were there.

It's #79.

 

Many people do wonder about God, even the atheists. 

I'm only saying to Willowhugger that he's not a devoted andrastian to begin with, that's all. And that Anders didn't attack him or his faith, and wasn't being racist at all.



#96
Eveangaline

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Of course, being the Inquisitor itself is a sacrifice.

 

Will the Dalish accept a member of their clan who lives, works, and befriends humans?

No, of course not.

 

However, the Inquisitor may change the world for their entire race.

 

Don't clans have a history of picking up abandoned kid humans? That's the backstory of aveline (the ancient one) and one of our multiplayers and in da2 feynriel was taken in by the dalish (how nice they were probably varied highly from elf to elf but they still took him in and they took his mother back just fine)

 

I mean sure as a general rule they don't want humans around because it is their clans and their culture but it's not like they're all "oh no a human or an elf who hung out with humans is here the quickening is happening! Get it away with its geeeerrrms!"


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#97
Ryzaki

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It's #79.

 

Many people do wonder about God, even the atheists. 

I'm only saying to Willowhugger that he's not a devoted andrastian to begin with, that's all. And that Anders didn't attack him or his faith, and wasn't being racist at all.

 

? why the strike out?

 

Oh I know.

 

Yeah I wouldn't say he was strong but I also wouldn't say he wasn't religious. Though I agree about the Anders not attacking his faith I disagree about Anders attacking him :P that's what 90% of their conversation sadly boils down to (even if it doesn't start that way >_> ) then again it's sad one of their only civil conversations involve them talking about suicide.



#98
Icy Magebane

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The entire premise of the Dalish is staying true to their cultural values and their religious beliefs, which are outlawed in Andrastian society - I don't see that as being intolerant when it's the crux of their existence; they aren't intended to be a pan-elven society. It's a life of hardship and struggle, trials and tribulations against great adversary, but a voluntary one you can leave at any time; it's why Zevran's mother, Arianni, young Zevran, Velanna, and Merrill could depart the clan and pursue their own goals.

 

Following the Creators, staying true to their elven culture - it's part of being Dalish. They're a religious group of nomadic wanderers who refuse to surrender their traditions or beliefs. Even the vallaslin are a mark of passage tied to their religion: "When the children of our people came of age, they earn the privilege of wearing the vallaslin, the blood writing. It sets us apart from the shemlen, and from the elves who have thrown their lot in with them. It reminds us that we will never again surrender our traditions and beliefs.

 

"The ritual deserves great reverence. The one who is to gain the vallaslin must prepare by meditating on the gods and the ways of our people, and by purifying the body and the skin. When the time comes, the keeper of the clan applies the blood writing. This is done in complete silence. Cries of pain are signs of weakness. If one cannot tolerate the pain of the blood writing, they are not ready to undertake the responsibilities of an adult. The Keeper may stop the ritual if they decide that the one gaining the vallaslin is not ready. There is no shame in this, for all children are different, and our ancestors once took centuries to come of age."

You outline their beliefs and values superbly, but this mindset is the very definition of intolerance and cultural supremacy.  I believe that this is necessary if they wish to persevere in the wilderness of hostile nations, but this does not change the fact that they view themselves as being honorable and heroic for living in this way.  Outsiders are made to assimilate if they wish to join (intolerance) and their views are held to a high standard that does not allow for change or re-interpretation by foreign minds (supremacy).

 

As this relates to the original topic, I don't see why a Dalish elf who actively practiced and supported such a culture would ever be interested in dating a human.  Most of the issues surrounding such a union, like the prospect of human children or life among the clan, are therefore rendered moot.


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#99
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Well with Josephine, I don't remember any particular connections Josephine had to the Chantry. I don't think she would necessarily be at odds with the Dalish Inquisitor's dalish elven culture, besides just being human.



#100
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As this relates to the original topic, I don't see why a Dalish elf who actively practiced and supported such a culture would ever be interested in dating a human.  Most of the issues surrounding such a union, like the prospect of human children or life among the clan, are therefore rendered moot.

 

Well an outcast or dalish that was only there because they didn't feel they'd make it out on their own I guess could work. They really only supported the dalish way of life for their own survival and ease. 

 

Hopefully the PC can be anti dalish enough for it to work believably.