Dragon Age isn't a very nuanced game but it has nuance.
So if you want to play the "Good" guy then just Harden Alistair, Leliana, and support Bhelen.
Then be good the rest of the game.
:-)
Would you say that sparing Loghain is the "good" choice? Oh and what about the Crime Wave side quest, should I avoid that?
Edit: Also, why would a "good" warden harden Leliana?(not saying that it's wrong to do that)
Maybe I should just ask what you think would make a Human Noble Warden who is overall morally righteous, just, and compassionate; yet still interesting and maybe even complex. I have a hard time RPing something that satisfies me.
Maybe I should just ask what you think would make a Human Noble Warden who is overall morally righteous, just, and compassionate; yet still interesting and maybe even complex. I have a hard time RPing something that satisfies me.
I think part of the complexity comes from the situation itself. The Couslands are chivalrous and devout, but Dragon Age is dark fantasy and resists simple answers. How do you apply noblesse oblige - the belief that nobles are responsible for the welfare of the people - and how to you stick to the chantry's tenets when the situation is so grave and easy answers are so tempting?
I do think that a human noble who's not a hypocrite (like mine was) would avoid the Dark Ritual. Too much a follower of Andraste to use blood magic, whatever the benefits. chantry-going nobles seem deeply suspicious of magic to begin with. That means killing Alistair, sacrificing Alistair's friendship and possibly future for the chance to sacrifice Loghain, or sacrificing yourself. That's a hard decision with no easy answers. Frankly, ultimate sacrifice seems most in line with the character type.
I think a human noble would support Bhelen, though he's a bastard. The human nobles would doubtless not understand that being the son of a king doesn't make him next in line - too different from their own system. And Bhelen, for all his flaws, has that noblesse-oblige fighting for the common people. Nobles would be more than used to unpleasant people who inherit thrones, so long as they did their duty. He would probably reject the anvil option though (blood magic again).
The nobles in the novels seem to hate elves, but hate things to do with spirits and demons first. I would lean toward breaking the curse as the most likely option, and beyond that maybe killing the werewolves.
The nobles in this universe seem deeply intertwined with the templars, so the circle could go either way. The suspicion of magic might run deeply enough to annul, but nobless oblige might require them to try and protect the mages under the chantry's care.
The urn of sacred ashes is a no-brainer. That story is right out of the tales of King Arthur, and they'd fight Kolgrim. As for Connor's fate, it would depend on whether suspicion of magic or the desire to serve a great lord came first, as well as a noble's duty to protect the innocents.
So, yeah, I guess what I'm saying is that the complexity comes from the fact that the hero-knight is trying to impose a black-and-white code on a grey world. Nothing's going to quite fit.
As for the Knight in Sour Armour type, the game gives you multiple responses that amount to the same thing. Cynicism is often there among them 
I think part of the complexity comes from the situation itself. The Couslands are chivalrous and devout, but Dragon Age is dark fantasy and resists simple answers. How do you apply noblesse oblige - the belief that nobles are responsible for the welfare of the people - and how to you stick to the chantry's tenets when the situation is so grave and easy answers are so tempting?
I do think that a human noble who's not a hypocrite (like mine was) would avoid the Dark Ritual. Too much a follower of Andraste to use blood magic, whatever the benefits. chantry-going nobles seem deeply suspicious of magic to begin with. That means killing Alistair, sacrificing Alistair's friendship and possibly future for the chance to sacrifice Loghain, or sacrificing yourself. That's a hard decision with no easy answers. Frankly, ultimate sacrifice seems most in line with the character type.
I think a human noble would support Bhelen, though he's a bastard. The human nobles would doubtless not understand that being the son of a king doesn't make him next in line - too different from their own system. And Bhelen, for all his flaws, has that noblesse-oblige fighting for the common people. Nobles would be more than used to unpleasant people who inherit thrones, so long as they did their duty. He would probably reject the anvil option though (blood magic again).
The nobles in the novels seem to hate elves, but hate things to do with spirits and demons first. I would lean toward breaking the curse as the most likely option, and beyond that maybe killing the werewolves.
The nobles in this universe seem deeply intertwined with the templars, so the circle could go either way. The suspicion of magic might run deeply enough to annul, but nobless oblige might require them to try and protect the mages under the chantry's care.
The urn of sacred ashes is a no-brainer. That story is right out of the tales of King Arthur, and they'd fight Kolgrim. As for Connor's fate, it would depend on whether suspicion of magic or the desire to serve a great lord came first, as well as a noble's duty to protect the innocents.
So, yeah, I guess what I'm saying is that the complexity comes from the fact that the hero-knight is trying to impose a black-and-white code on a grey world. Nothing's going to quite fit.
As for the Knight in Sour Armour type, the game gives you multiple responses that amount to the same thing. Cynicism is often there among them
I'm liking the sound of this.
So how does this character type deal with the various side quests(like Trial of Crows, Crime Wave, and A Brewing Conspiracy), the companions, the landsmeet, and the events of Awakening(if they're still alive)
I'm liking the sound of this.
So how does this character type deal with the various side quests(like Trial of Crows, Crime Wave, and A Brewing Conspiracy), the companions, the landsmeet, and the events of Awakening(if they're still alive)
Sadly, Crime Wave is right out. The whole purpose of that mission is to humiliate nobles as a class, and you are one. If you're prepared to give up gold for RPing, this is the place to make that sacrifice more than any other.
Trial of the Crows is probably out, if you're playing the chivalrous route. Not that nobles don't use assassins, but it's not a very knightly thing to do (even if you have your sour armour +1 on). On the other hand, if you're metagaming, you do save a noble's child at the end of that.
A Brewing Conspiracy is all about people trying to overthrow a rightful ruler. Oddly, the solution that most disgusts Ser Varel - holding the nobles' family as guest-hostages - is actually the most peaceful, and has a long tradition in real-life noble histories. Probably more honest, though, to take the fight directly to Old Stark's Farm.
As for companions...? Well, the one you'd be least likely to recruit is Morrigan, but they don't give you an option there. Oghren is kind of a noble himself, and a good warrior. Very unlikely to recruit Zevran, but *might* show mercy and let him live. Sten is probably third on the least-likely-to-recruit list, but he could have grudging respect from a chantry-born knight. Besides, if King Arthur could hang out with Sir Palomedes the Saracen, then a Cousland could hang out with the Thedas equivalent of a saracen, the qunari.
Wynne, Dog, Alistair, are definitely in the recruit list, and Leliana's chantry-conversion probably pushes her over the edge into Cousland-friendly, in spite of her past. You probably wouldn't want to harden her (since you convince her that killing is good for that) but hardening Alistair could go either way (that conversation sounds like stuff the Knight in Sour Armour would say). The only logical romances if you're not marrying Anora are Alistair (for a female Cousland) or Leliana (for either). Assuming your noble's not too bitter for romance 
Most of the companion quests are pretty innocuous, and the noble would be happy to help. Killing Marjolaine could go either way. The noble would likely slay Flemeth on principle, and not for Morrigan.
Sadly, Crime Wave is right out. The whole purpose of that mission is to humiliate nobles as a class, and you are one. If you're prepared to give up gold for RPing, this is the place to make that sacrifice more than any other.
Trial of the Crows is probably out, if you're playing the chivalrous route. Not that nobles don't use assassins, but it's not a very knightly thing to do (even if you have your sour armour +1 on). On the other hand, if you're metagaming, you do save a noble's child at the end of that.
A Brewing Conspiracy is all about people trying to overthrow a rightful ruler. Oddly, the solution that most disgusts Ser Varel - holding the nobles' family as guest-hostages - is actually the most peaceful, and has a long tradition in real-life noble histories. Probably more honest, though, to take the fight directly to Old Stark's Farm.
As for companions...? Well, the one you'd be least likely to recruit is Morrigan, but they don't give you an option there. Oghren is kind of a noble himself, and a good warrior. Very unlikely to recruit Zevran, but *might* show mercy and let him live. Sten is probably third on the least-likely-to-recruit list, but he could have grudging respect from a chantry-born knight. Besides, if King Arthur could hang out with Sir Palomedes the Saracen, then a Cousland could hang out with the Thedas equivalent of a saracen, the qunari.
Wynne, Dog, Alistair, are definitely in the recruit list, and Leliana's chantry-conversion probably pushes her over the edge into Cousland-friendly, in spite of her past. You probably wouldn't want to harden her (since you convince her that killing is good for that) but hardening Alistair could go either way (that conversation sounds like stuff the Knight in Sour Armour would say). The only logical romances if you're not marrying Anora are Alistair (for a female Cousland) or Leliana (for either). Assuming your noble's not too bitter for romance
Most of the companion quests are pretty innocuous, and the noble would be happy to help. Killing Marjolaine could go either way. The noble would likely slay Flemeth on principle, and not for Morrigan.
Now what about the Landsmeet and Awakening?
P.S. I don't mind if my character picks up shades of Pragmatic Hero as time goes on, though it is not required.
The Landsmeet will play out differently depending on previous decisions, starting with your gender. If at all possible, I'd want to put a Cousland on the throne, either with Anora or Alistair
This makes it much harder to win as a female noble who doesn't do Trial of the Crows, but not impossible if you freed the tortured noble and saved the templar and Bann alstanna's brother. Fortunately, the three arguments that get you the most support are the kinds of things a human noble would say: 1) focus on the blight, 2) bring up the tortured nobles, 3) bring up Arl Eamon's poisoning.
With that you'll barely squeak by. As a man marrying Anora, though, it's dead easy to win. Still good to make those arguments, as they're in character.
I've never actually played a male Cousland, so I don't know what it does to existing love interests. Alistair won't date someone if he marries Anora, but is it possible for a male Cousland to carry on with Leliana...?
As for Awakening, there aren't a lot of big decisions except the one at the end - I'd recruit everyone, even give Nathaniel a chance to prove himself. Side against the baronness with Justice, obviously. As for the one big decision, I think the Cousland is one of the few who'd defend the keep and not be evil. Medieval nobles weren't high-society types, they were military commanders, and as horrible as it for amaranthine, he might just come back to the keep to defend it and judge the city a lost cause.
The Landsmeet will play out differently depending on previous decisions, starting with your gender. If at all possible, I'd want to put a Cousland on the throne, either with Anora or Alistair
This makes it much harder to win as a female noble who doesn't do Trial of the Crows, but not impossible if you freed the tortured noble and saved the templar and Bann alstanna's brother. Fortunately, the three arguments that get you the most support are the kinds of things a human noble would say: 1) focus on the blight, 2) bring up the tortured nobles, 3) bring up Arl Eamon's poisoning.
With that you'll barely squeak by. As a man marrying Anora, though, it's dead easy to win. Still good to make those arguments, as they're in character.
I've never actually played a male Cousland, so I don't know what it does to existing love interests. Alistair won't date someone if he marries Anora, but is it possible for a male Cousland to carry on with Leliana...?
As for Awakening, there aren't a lot of big decisions except the one at the end - I'd recruit everyone, even give Nathaniel a chance to prove himself. Side against the baronness with Justice, obviously. As for the one big decision, I think the Cousland is one of the few who'd defend the keep and not be evil. Medieval nobles weren't high-society types, they were military commanders, and as horrible as it for amaranthine, he might just come back to the keep to defend it and judge the city a lost cause.
So what do you think should be done with Loghain?
P.S.: In regards to the existing romances with the landsmeet; a hardened Alistair will keep the warden as a mistress if he is convinced, while a hardened Leliana will stay as the warden's mistress if not talked to after the landsmeet
I think Loghain has to go, if only to keep Alistair around. It seems more in tune with the human noble ethos, too, and with the the age-of-chivalry tone. Loghain would have to pay for his crimes, and for turning Ferelden upside down - I note too that in a few dialogues some nobles have never really come to think of him as anything but an upstart commoner. It also seems the natural end for that duel.
Obviously this would mean that Alistair would have to duel him if marrying Anora.
I think Loghain has to go, if only to keep Alistair around. It seems more in tune with the human noble ethos, too, and with the the age-of-chivalry tone. Loghain would have to pay for his crimes, and for turning Ferelden upside down - I note too that in a few dialogues some nobles have never really come to think of him as anything but an upstart commoner. It also seems the natural end for that duel.
Obviously this would mean that Alistair would have to duel him if marrying Anora.
I like what you've posted so far, all of it makes quite a bit of sense
Now what about incorporating character development? I consider a natural progression being that he starts out with a pretty black and white view of things and then proceeding to acknowledge and incorporate "shades of grey" into his worldview and into how he deals with things.
I like what you've posted so far, all of it makes quite a bit of sense
Now what about incorporating character development? I consider a natural progression being that he starts out with a pretty black and white view of things and then proceeding to acknowledge and incorporate "shades of grey" into his worldview and into how he deals with things.
I think that would come naturally.
In the origin, the Cousland can be a pure a knight. By the time you get to the Circle tower, you're already choosing between risking blood magic and protecting the innocent. In Orzammar, I'd put Bhelen on the throne, but he's not exactly a pure choice. By the Landsmeet, it's already grey. Give Loghain a chance to redeem himself (noble mercy) and you lose the chance to marry the ture heir (if female) or bring him to help save the world. Marry Anora as a male warden, and you have to give up the duel to Alistair, shunting you out of the knight role by having others fight your duels for you.
By the time you get to Amaranthine, your choices are grim. I've already said I'm guessing you'd take the keep over the city, but that's a lot of innocents lost 
I'm also not enitrely convinced a chantry-bred Cousland wouldn't stab Morrigan - friend and travelling companion who doubtless saved you many times over - believing that her blood magic was endangering the world.
I think that would come naturally.
In the origin, the Cousland can be a pure a knight. By the time you get to the Circle tower, you're already choosing between risking blood magic and protecting the innocent. In Orzammar, I'd put Bhelen on the throne, but he's not exactly a pure choice. By the Landsmeet, it's already grey. Give Loghain a chance to redeem himself (noble mercy) and you lose the chance to marry the ture heir (if female) or bring him to help save the world. Marry Anora as a male warden, and you have to give up the duel to Alistair, shunting you out of the knight role by having others fight your duels for you.
By the time you get to Amaranthine, your choices are grim. I've already said I'm guessing you'd take the keep over the city, but that's a lot of innocents lost
I'm also not enitrely convinced a chantry-bred Cousland wouldn't stab Morrigan - friend and travelling companion who doubtless saved you many times over - believing that her blood magic was endangering the world.
Don't worry, I always save Amaranthine (I always have the keep fully upgraded anyway) and I have never stabbed Morrigan and never will. My character will hold true to his principles as much as he can and will only compromise when he feels he must. Basically he goes from Lawful Good to Neutral or Chaotic Good.
Ah okay. I was imagining more of a Lawful Good to True Neutral progression. To Chaotic Good you'd be turning anti-noble by the end. That's fighting arbitrary power, of course, and anti-authoritarian.
(Now I'm picturing the peasant protester from Monty Python and the Holy Grail: "Supreme executive power derives from a mandate from the masses, not from some farcical aquatic ceremony.")
Ah okay. I was imagining more of a Lawful Good to True Neutral progression. To Chaotic Good you'd be turning anti-noble by the end. That's fighting arbitrary power, of course, and anti-authoritarian.
(Now I'm picturing the peasant protester from Monty Python and the Holy Grail: "Supreme executive power derives from a mandate from the masses, not from some farcical aquatic ceremony.")
Yeah, I could imagine my character getting annoyed by the nobles and their practices as time goes on; heck I imagine by the end my character has gotten so use to life as a sort-of mercenary and adventurer that he can't go back to living as a noble, just doesn't feel right to him anymore.
That might be the way to play it (headcanon-wise. Those conversation options aren't there, I think.)
So do you guys think the Loghain Redeemer ending it the most fitting ending for my character?(at least out of the ones that keep my warden alive)
I am planning my next noble play through with Loghain doing the US and marrying Anora. I just wish Alistair remained a warden instead of a drunk. Unless I am mistaken?
I am planning my next noble play through with Loghain doing the US and marrying Anora. I just wish Alistair remained a warden instead of a drunk. Unless I am mistaken?
Alistair became a drunk in my playthrough where I spared Loghain. Not sure of how it happens if he's hardened.
The good news is that in DA2, he shows up as a drunk, and Teagan eventually rescues him and presumably gets him sober
I went on roaring rampage of revenge once. Made things difficult with Leliana, Alistair and Wynne because I tend to pick dialogue choices that seemed the most practical and was always bitter about the deaths. Also made it that he hates Duncan and grey wardens in general, because asking ur dad to give u to the wardens when he's on the brink of death is not appropriate. Didn't kill Zev, on the basis that having a skilled assassin in your debt is good. Put hapless Alistair on the throne, and made myself chancellor on basis it'll give him enough power to hunt the rest of the Howes, without being too obvious. Accepted DR without even asking why, because he's the last of the line. It ended up being an overall good guy tho, didn't really want unnecessary deaths, apart from Howe's men and Loghain's men, so most major matters were resolved peacefully. Basically the motivation is not ending the blight, but to survive the end of blight and take care of family matters. Peaceful resolutions in general just mean Ferelden would be in better condition to do things in than to tear up the place and kill everyone. Kinda conflicted, but fun playthrough.
Is it possible to make a Human Noble not a follower of the Chantry? Like choosing dialogue options that say they don't follow the Chantry?
Don't think you can flaunt it around, but you could disagree on it when talking with some characters. Also, when in praying scenes, you could just stay silent.
I RPed my human noble as being able to see the greater good in every decision except when it came to getting revenge for his family. So sparing Loghain was never an option -- he'd made a vow to kill Howe and all of his accomplices, and the minute Loghain walked into Eamon's estate with Howe as his wingman, his days were numbered.
I can't tell you what to pick but I guess I can play devils advocate with the other choice.
Side with the mages- Most of the mages had rebelled and/or became possessed. How can you be sure to control them on the battlefield? It could be logically to recruit the Templars, although some died at the tower, they were waiting for reinforcements which you can use for the Blight.
Save both Connor and Isolde- To save Connor you had to travel from the house and leave him unattended thus endangering the lives of his mother and Tegean. A warden who wishes to save as many lives as possible may deem it necessary to end the boy's life.
Kill cultists- The cultists offered a peaceful solution for you and your companions along with more power to fight the archdemon. As Morrigan says, if you spare them, you will have these men loyal to you which is a bonus. Also, leaving the ashes pure allows everyone in Thedas to come along and take advantage of them, which they do.
Reveal ashes- See above. It does more harm than good.
Cure werewolf curse- I usually pick this one too, but if you need a reason to go against it. The wolves were attacking those bound to be your allies, someone of the Keeper's age could be vital in keeping your elvish allies more stable than killing him off and leaving a young keeper in charge. He may also provide old knowledge and power just in case the Blight get's worse.
Destroy Anvil- Orzamaar has been fighting the darkspawn for centuries. Caridin has his reasons to want it destroyed but at the same time it doesn't seem like he's been fighting the darkspawn lately. Not only can the golems help secure the deep roads but help the surface in case things get worse.
Crown Bhelen- No devil's advocate here as I love this option, i can't think of any reason to crown Harrowmont. lol!
Put Alistair and Anora on throne- If your warden is a Cousland man then perhaps he would be more useful on the throne than a man who refuses to lead at it's darkest hour. If Alistair isn't hardened then I worry even more about putting him on the throne, especially after how he carries himself at the landsmeet if you spare Loghain. Anora seems to do the job on her own.
Spare Loghain- I like this option too. I thinkt he more Paragon option is to kill him.
Do the Dark Ritual- no complaints.
Save Amaranthine- Perhaps burning the city is better. When you get there everyone is diseased or dead. Not only that but burning the city strengthen the Warden's and cements their place int he country.
Kill Architect- Keeping him alive means that the darkspawn can be reasoned with, form alliances, and so on. Killing him keeps the darkspawn as mindless monsters who can be lead by a single beast.
Hope that helps in some way.
Spare Loghain- I like this option too. I thinkt he more Paragon option is to kill him.
Were this Mass Effect, sparing Loghain would probably be Paragon. Loads of times you get the choice between sparing people and executing them in ME, and pretty much always Paragon is letting them go.
Granted, were they to put the choices in Paragon/Renegade divides, the presentation would probably be a bit different. (Less "Riordan has a point, we should put him through the Joining" and more "Loghain should join us", perhaps).
My guy, who i consider nice and compassionate, allways recruits Zevran and through conversation we agree that after he put Alistair on throne he gets to be my personal assassin, cause world is not a nice place and you cant kill some bad people publicly.
Always kill Logain, not cause its a right thing, its cause it gives him pleasure..a lot of pleasure.
Goes for Bahlen, gets the Chantry to Orzammar and lets that stupid wife of Eamons kill herself to save the kid, also, Jovan gets head chopped off, everything else, from what i can remember is what you could consider chivalrious or at minimum right thing to do.
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