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[Above Good and Evil]

I just replayed Awakening and Anders' reaction to burning down Amaranthine surprised me: He's actually the most vocal against it and says that if even one innocent person is inside then it's not worth the risk of destroying it. Now I know he's nicer in Awakening before the merge, but he also came off as selfish and more out for himself rather than truly altruistic during this phase. It's really sad knowing that in 7 years time he becomes the one thing his past self despises as much as if not more than any Templar. 

[Thermopylae]

There is a sense in DA:2 that Anders is not really himself. He is without the cat. It still bugs me that the character Anders would do such a thing without even discussing it before hand with his "friend" Hawke. Or at least intimate a concern.. Ah well.

[Willowhugger]

I just replayed Awakening and Anders' reaction to burning down Amaranthine surprised me: He's actually the most vocal against it and says that if even one innocent person is inside then it's not worth the risk of destroying it. Now I know he's nicer in Awakening before the merge, but he also came off as selfish and more out for himself rather than truly altruistic during this phase. It's really sad knowing that in 7 years time he becomes the one thing his past self despises as much as if not more than any Templar. 

Yeah,

Anders is driven crazy not just by Justice but the Tranquil Solution, Karl, and numerous other events in the game.

 

He's also been driven out of the Wardens.

As a result, he's undergoing a slow deteroriation almost no one notices.

[Lulupab]

There is a sense in DA:2 that Anders is not really himself. He is without the cat. It still bugs me that the character Anders would do such a thing without even discussing it before hand with his "friend" Hawke. Or at least intimate a concern.. Ah well.

Actually he somewhat does discuss it, after completing his act 3 quest "Justice", if he is a 100% friend a star dialogue appears "don't you trust me" choosing that will make Anders tell you he has been planning something for a some time but he doesn't want Hawke connected to it in any way so he has to keep it a secret, he asks you to trust him as he has trusted you.

But the change he goes through is not really positive but that was to be expected considering Justice.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

I just replayed Awakening and Anders' reaction to burning down Amaranthine surprised me: He's actually the most vocal against it and says that if even one innocent person is inside then it's not worth the risk of destroying it. Now I know he's nicer in Awakening before the merge, but he also came off as selfish and more out for himself rather than truly altruistic during this phase. It's really sad knowing that in 7 years time he becomes the one thing his past self despises as much as if not more than any Templar. 

 

Justice says something very similar to both Amaranthine and other points in the game. The fact that both of them went from being aghast at the notion of killing innocents for the "greater good" to a fanatical monster willing to kill anyone to get what they want is supposed to be the whole reason Anders' story is written as such a tragedy.

[teh DRUMPf!!]

He's actually the most vocal against it and says that if even one innocent person is inside then it's not worth the risk of destroying it.

 

Gotta admit I find that a bit surprising since he's willing to leave the trapped villagers to rot in the Fade, so we can ally with the Baroness and save ourselves.

[Willowhugger]

Gotta admit I find that a bit surprising since he's willing to leave the trapped villagers to rot in the Fade, so we can ally with the Baroness and save ourselves.

In that case, though, Anders is probably aware they're ghosts.

[AutumnWitch]

As a 100% Mage supporter I am thankful for what he did. He was right when he says, "There can be no peace" between Mages and Templars. What he did was horrible in killing the people in the Chantry BUT something had to break. He did what no other Mage was willing to do. Freedom always comes at a great cost.

[Roses]

I have played DAII first, and now I'm going through DA:A just to see how Anders was before the merging.
I think the whole downfall after joining with Justice is shown really realistically throughout the two games, well, a textbook illustration of why lending your body to spirits isn't good for you even if you think the spirits are "kind" "good" whatever.

I feel really, really sorry for Anders. Killing all the innocent people for a flashy illustration of "there can be no peace between Mages and Templars" was reckless to say the least, but I see one very misunderstood, but good character who's gradually losing control over himself. Which, is again, heartbreakingly sad. Because I found him excessively charming otherwise.

[HTTP 404]

I really disliked Anders but I understood why he did it.  With the spirit of Justice, he has developed a black and white perspective of the world.  Given the context of 7 plus years fighting that perspective I understand how he has become what he is.

 

With that said, I always fight the urge to knife him in the back for murdering those people and yes I heard the argument that they either deserved it and it was a military act which I still disagree with it since I am a big believer of compromise and peace.  I could debate it but I will just concede now that it is an opinion of mine that is bone deep.

[teh DRUMPf!!]

As a 100% Mage supporter I am thankful for what he did. He was right when he says, "There can be no peace" between Mages and Templars. What he did was horrible in killing the people in the Chantry BUT something had to break. He did what no other Mage was willing to do. Freedom always comes at a great cost.

 

And is in many ways not worth it.

[Lulupab]

And is in many ways not worth it.

That stopped no one. Not in real life, not in video games. Do you honestly think no innocents were killed in Andraste's rebellion? No children died? No one was raped? etc... considering her army was bloody barbarians it certainly happened.

[AutumnWitch]

And is in many ways not worth it.

 

In this case I believe it is. The mage towers were basically dens of indentured servitude which is just "slavery light".

 

Freedom means you are unobstructed in living your life as you choose. Anything less is a form of slavery. ~ Wayne Dyer

 

Whenever I hear anyone arguing for slavery, I feel a strong impulse to see it tried on him personally. ~ Abraham Lincoln

[teh DRUMPf!!]

That stopped no one. Not in real life, not in video games. Do you honestly think no innocents were killed in Andraste's rebellion? No children died? No one was raped? etc... considering her army was bloody barbarians it certainly happened.

 

Oh it's not the civilian casualty angle that bothers me, just the end-result here. In general, I think Westerners put more value on freedom than it's really worth (I know this because I am one). What good did freedom do in Iraq, for example? It made things worse over there.

 

Similarly, I think Anders' views are literally insane.

[Ferretinabun]

And is in many ways not worth it.

 

This is a very interesting basis for a discussion.

 

Perhaps it takes an outsider to see it (I'm a Brit), but American culture is absolutely saturated with the championing of freedom. Understandably so, of course, given their history. And I'm certainly not saying that freedom is necessarily a bad thing in either concept or practice. But it is a drum often banged in American media that a life without absolute freedom is simply a life not worth living, and that its pursuit justifies almost any means. It's worth remembering that other cultures don't place as much emphasis on its importance. (Eastern Asian cultures in particular tend to value duty, honour and responsibility more highly, which are in many ways antithetical to the concept of personal freedom.)

 

It also suffers, of course, from the same problem as words such as 'justice' in that they need defining. Absolute freedom is anarchy and not many champions of freedom want that, so how much 'freedom' is ideal, exactly?

 

But that's wandering far from the thread's topic. More on point, if we're not to put the abrupt change down to bad writing, then yes it seems Justice's possession of Anders has done more than just merge them: it has also warped them. That's why I kinda like the mechanic that 'Justice' is becoming 'Vengeance'. Seems appropriate.

[Willowhugger]

You may be surprised, Ferentinabun.

 

Certainly, the present culture in the United States is one that has been deeply affected by the War on Terror and not in a particularly nice way either. The issue of "freedom vs. safety" is one which has come up in numerous cultures over the years, including the United Kingdom, but is really the heart of the Templar vs. Mage debate in my mind.

Mages can be both an oppressed minority like gays, Muslims, early Christians, or so on or they can also be a stand-in for terrorists or the mentally ill.

 

Templars can stand in for the United States, prison-guards, Nazis, or religious fanatics.

 

Does the safety of the many justify the persecution of the few?

[HTTP 404]

You may be surprised, Ferentinabun.

 

Certainly, the present culture in the United States is one that has been deeply affected by the War on Terror and not in a particularly nice way either. The issue of "freedom vs. safety" is one which has come up in numerous cultures over the years, including the United Kingdom, but is really the heart of the Templar vs. Mage debate in my mind.

Mages can be both an oppressed minority like gays, Muslims, early Christians, or so on or they can also be a stand-in for terrorists or the mentally ill.

 

Templars can stand in for the United States, prison-guards, Nazis, or religious fanatics.

 

Does the safety of the many justify the persecution of the few?

 

I took a Terrorism class in college, it was a political science and criminal justice class.  It was really interesting, we were challenged to look at what it means to be a terrorist vs rebel and to weigh safety vs freedom.  Coming out of that class I realized that how you get to a solution is as important as the solution itself, not that others agreed with me but I learned that about myself.  Many times in history, we will get a positive solution with questionable means only for those means to eventually bite us in the ass in the future.  One example that springs in mind is the CIA supporting the Al-Queda against the Soviets in the 80s.  We succeeded in keeping the Soviets out.