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Alignment, Dualism, and Dragon Age


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#1
WillieStyle

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I assume quite a few of us are familiar with the DnD alignment system.  Many have criticized it for being simplistic and incapable of accounting for the complexities of actual human nature.  However, there's one reason I, for one, really like the DnD alignment system: dualism.  The notion that good and evil - or order and chaos - are forces of nature in conflict with each other is common to so many aspects of human folklore, mythology, religion, and philosophy that inform fantasy literature; from Zoroastrianism to Shintoism, good/order vs. evil/chaos is a theme that defines so much of modern fantasy.  Even religions that ostensibly eschew dualism, such as Christianity and Buddhism, invariably have theological text replete with dualism.  There's something about the collective human psyche that is drawn to these grand conflicts.  Now, I personally don't believe good and evil are forces of nature akin to gravity and electromagnetism.  But I don't think dragons exist either.  Speculative fiction doesn't have to be "realistic".

 

I think the DnD alignment system is a simple, yet somewhat effective, way of expressing dualism as a force of nature.  But, as many people have pointed out, human nature is complex.  Even fictional characters are often too complicated to be described by a simple 2-axis alignment system.  What was Achilles' alignment?  Gilgamesh's? Lancelot's?  However, I think there's a simple modification to the alignment system that would allow it to better describe complex characters: the distinction between temperament and aspiration.  Think of temperamental alignment as the alignment you would be if you just did whatever you felt like.  Whereas aspirational alignment is the alignment you strive to live by.  I think that this distinction between temperament and aspiration is especially suitable to the world of Dragon age.

 

Dualistic conflicts are most interesting when both sides have appealing qualities.  Good vs. evil stories are less interesting when one side is utterly unsympathetic [cough]Mass Effect[/cough].  That's why I think Dragon Age 2, despite its flaws, had the best plot of any Bioware game to date.  The Arishok/Kirkwal and Templar/Mage conflicts included compelling antagonists that made for superior storytelling.  One of the things that makes me excited about Dragon Age Inquisition is that these sort of conflicts will be further explored.  Along, with such complex conflicts, come characters that aren't merely 2-dimensional.  That's where the aspirational vs. temperamental alignment comes in.  I like to think of Leliana as a temperamentally Chaotic Good character who - out of devotion to the divine - is aspiring to be Lawful Good.  Cullen is a character who struggles to convince himself that Lawful Good and Lawful Neutral are one and the same.  Finally, Varric is a Chaotic Good guy at heart who works hard to project a True-Neutral persona to those around him.  What do you guys think?  Does this fairly describe Dragon Age characters?

 

I for one am excited to create Inquisitors that'll be similarly conflicted:

Rodin Trevelyan: Human Rogue.

Rodin is a witty, charismatic, young noble with a love for the carefree, swashbuckling lifestyle.  He has always managed to talk or fight his way out of any jams his noble birth couldn't protect him from... until now.  While he personally bristles at authority and convention, Rodin understands that not everyone was born into privilege.  For the vast majority of people in Thedas, laws and conventions are the only defense against capricious rulers and abominable mages.  Rodin's goal is to forge as pragmatic and altruistic an Inquisition as possible.  One that doesn't allow grand philosophical and theological debates to come before the well being of the common folk of Thedas.

Alignment: Chaotic Neutral (temperamental), Neutral Good (aspirational).

Ideal party: Iron Bull, Varric, and Vivianne.


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#2
Icy Magebane

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That's an interesting concept, although it may have already been covered by alignment tendencies: http://easydamus.com...tendencies.html

The short version is that this refinement to the system is designed to take into account characters who are somewhat neutral but lean more towards one side of the spectrum or the other when moral issues or law vs. chaos arguments arise.  For example, the character you describe could be classified as Chaotic Neutral (Good) to show that they favor good deeds over evil ones... although the problem now is that this character also seems to not have that much of a commitment to Chaos, making them Neutral Good (Chaotic) ... so I don't know.  Maybe this doesn't address the issue after all?

 

As I look more closely at this character, I am not getting a sense of moral neutrality... the fact that he is attempting to build an "altruistic" Inquisition from the outset seems to imply that he is "good," but perhaps does not understand this yet?  Maybe I'm misunderstanding or some details are missing from the post... based on what's written, I'd call this character Chaotic Good (temperamental) and Neutral Good (aspirational).  Or under the tendency system, Neutral Good (Chaotic).

 

Either way, it's an interesting idea and I think that having aspirations in mind is a good way to promote character growth during an RP.  After all, the character may follow a certain creed, but that does not mean that they do not wish to change... it should not be sudden, of course, and the creed typically is not very flexible unless associated with Neutrality in some way, but I don't see any reason why an alignment can't change during the course of a long or particularly trying adventure.  So long as it's not done willy nilly, it makes sense to me.



#3
raging_monkey

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I like the system as well here's template

Naylen "nayl" trevelyn
Human mage age 22
He is sardonic, witty, borderlinig arrogant, but a heart of gold. A enchanter due being a magical prodigy and his cousin's endorsement due to being first enchanter. Feels the word's tearing itself apart and would rather stay out of it (so he tells himself) but earnestly wishes to help both non-mages and mages get along. Preffers to talk rather fight and read a book and open to philosphical debates

Alignment: good(usually) nuetral good(aspires)
Preffer team: cass(lovers) varric and solas

#4
WillieStyle

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Fair point Icy Magebane.  I'd say that Rodin is aspiring to (or believes that is right to) build a pragmatic, altruistic inquisition.  But his temperament would drive him to simply use the inquisition to ensure that the Chantry, Templars, and Mages can't mess with him.  The idea is that he will sometimes/often succumb to his impulses and use the inquisition, not to better the lives of the common folk, but to get the authorities off his back.



#5
Icy Magebane

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Fair point Icy Magebane.  I'd say that Rodin is aspiring to (or believes that is right to) build a pragmatic, altruistic inquisition.  But his temperament would drive him to simply use the inquisition to ensure that the Chantry, Templars, and Mages can't mess with him.  The idea is that he will sometimes/often succumb to his impulses and use the inquisition, not to better the lives of the common folk, but to get the authorities off his back.

Okay, that clears things up... so long as he isn't automatically drawn to altruistic behavior and will occasionally sacrifice innocents or commit crimes to further his own survival and freedom (or whatever goals he has...), that counts as neutral to me.  Like I said, it's an interesting layer of complexity on top of the old system... I could see it working well and creating a good deal of drama and internal conflict during the course of the game.  Will Rodin reach his goal of shifting alignments, or will his base instincts drive him forward? o.o  Find out on the next episode of Dragon Age: Inquisition.



#6
WillieStyle

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I like the system as well here's template

Naylen "nayl" trevelyn
Human mage age 22
He is sardonic, witty, borderlinig arrogant, but a heart of gold. A enchanter due being a magical prodigy and his cousin's endorsement due to being first enchanter. Feels the word's tearing itself apart and would rather stay out of it (so he tells himself) but earnestly wishes to help both non-mages and mages get along. Preffers to talk rather fight and read a book and open to philosphical debates

Alignment: good(usually) nuetral good(aspires)
Preffer team: cass(lovers) varric and solas

 

Interesting character.  But is he temperamentally neutral (wants to stay out of it) and aspiring to be good, or is he both temperamentally and aspirationaly good?



#7
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True Neutral

 

A list of Ten Commandments for a true neutral religion may look like this:
 
1. You shall avoid lies.
2. You shall not kill the innocent.
3. You shall not murder.
4. You shall help the needy if such action aids yourself.
5. You shall honor those who honor you.
6. You shall follow the law unless breaking the law can advance you without harming others.
7. You shall not betray others unless your life is in jeopardy.
8. You shall aid those who aid you and harm those who harm you.
9. You shall not promote an extreme viewpoint.
10. You shall advance yourself without harming others.
 
Likewise, a true neutral religion may list the following as sins. This list is given in the order of least severe infraction to most severe.
 
1. Trying to persuade others to take a stance on a moral or ethical issue.
2. Failing to assist a friend or ally.
3. Killing for any reason other than survival.
4. Breaking your word to a friend or ally, unless life is threatened.
5. Needless torture.
6. Making a sacrifice for someone unrelated to you.
7. Refusing to kill when important to your survival.
8. Betraying an ally or friend, unless life is in danger.
9. Showing mercy to a dire enemy.
10. Taking sides in a conflict that doesn't affect your survival.

 

The following actions are honorable for this alignment:
 
  • Defeating a superior opponent
  • Dirty Fighting
  • Fleeing a fight with a superior opponent
  • Gloating over a victory
  • Perpetrate humiliating prank on enemy
 
The following actions are dishonorable for this alignment:
 
  • Allowing the enemy to attack first
  • Being taken prisoner
  • Convicted of a crime
  • Defeated by an inferior opponent
  • Killing a host who has provided you food or shelter
  • Surrendering
  • Treason

 

A true neutral being...

 

  • Values his family, but will not heed their requests necessarily.
  • Will provide for friends, and expects to be repaid in some manner.
  • Does not seek positions of authority over others.
  • Fits in with their society.
  • Supports their nation.
  • Supports the law when advantageous to do so.
  • Is not concerned with politics, most likely.
  • Will keep his word, generally.
  • Will take risks if the benefits are great.
  • Will not aid family members in need if personal discomfort is required.
  • Will not betray a family member, unless the circumstances are dire.
  • Has few close friends and would never betray those he has, unless circumstances are dire.
  • Is generally well liked by his community, but normally will not seek to improve the community.
  • Will support his nation when profitable to do so, but will not act against his nation if profitable.
  • Believes people deserve the treatment they are willing to endure.
  • Is not concerned with those less fortunate.
  • Will not harm others for profit.

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#8
raging_monkey

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Interesting character.  But is he temperamentally neutral (wants to stay out of it) and aspiring to be good, or is he both temperamentally and aspirationaly good?

its a grey area... wants to have world normal again he can read books on the fade and magic but sees the world needs help and life tells him to help. To say its complicated is a understatment

#9
Pierce Miller

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If I can be neutral evil then I will.



#10
Deco

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I like this, well tought topic



#11
metatheurgist

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I like the D&D alignment system too. It's not a straight jacket, just a indicator of general behaviour. I think we can accept that there are good and evil people, and people that are organised and together and people that are disorganised and impulsive. I also like the extreme personifications of those alignments. Removing them from D&D really took away a lot of flavour.

#12
raging_monkey

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I go by 2e ruled maybe tolerate 3e

#13
RobRam10

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Lawful Evil! The world will be mine!


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