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[Lulupab]

still by chantry amd general thedosian defination a abomination

I was saying he is not just an abomination. Its oversimplification.

[Inprea]

Or the "Anders Special". They better explain just how he managed to make something like that, because how have we not heard of a weapon like that being used more often?

 

You'd think the magisters would be happy to use something like that to take down enemy walls. My guess is that it has a long arming period. It needs time to set. Even if that is the case though you could set it well in advance them bait your enemy to the location and take out a mighty chunk of their army.

[Lulupab]

You'd think the magisters would be happy to use something like that to take down enemy walls. My guess is that it has a long arming period. It needs time to set. Even if that is the case though you could set it well in advance them bait your enemy to the location and take out a mighty chunk of their army.

It was most likely a magic the spirit taught him. Because if Hawke has aggressive personality Anders tells you how happy the spirit is, he actually looks like drunk telling you this.

[raging_monkey]

I was saying he is not just an abomination. Its oversimplification.

more of a broad umbrella term. To some they are monster(emeny appearence) others like me a consent/non-consenting union of supernatrual and natrual people.

[dragonflight288]

more of a broad umbrella term. To some they are monster(emeny appearence) others like me a consent/non-consenting union of supernatrual and natrual people.

 

Technically, any mage possessed by a spirit is an abomination by the Chantry's terms. A tree possessed by a spirit would be a sylavan, a wolf would be like witherfang, or a werewolf. Wynne would be an abomination just like Anders is, or Thrask's daughter, or even Uldred. 

 

There are obvious differences in mental faculties, and in some of them, madness and deformities and and such aren't even present, like Wynne. 

 

It sort of reminds me of a conversation my Warden can have with Morrigan.

 

Warden: Aren't abominations usually insane horrors?

Morrigan: How often is this 'usually'? Is it always? If it is not always, then when is it not so?

 

A loose, umbrella like definition would give the average templar and citizen of Thedas a real thing to look out for, but look at the details, and you'll find that things aren't always what has been preached. If Anders is an abomination because of his possession, then Wynne and Evangeline are equally guilty of the same thing. If she is not an abomination because she is no mad or deformed, then neither is Anders when he is control of his faculties. 

 

The loose definition works for the average person because that's what they're most likely to come across should they come across an abomination. But if the mage in question is possessed of a spirit and doesn't show it, and still ha control of their thoughts and actions, then the average person wouldn't even know about it. Look at how many patients Anders helped over the years. How many of them do you think knew that they were in the presence of a Fade Spirit? How many mages that met Wynne knew she was possessed as well? How many templars knew before the final events of Asunder? 

[EmperorSahlertz]

So Pride is not complicated? geez, what a emotional scholar you are. And to use the word "short" and "simple" when describing Anders then calling it complex was the most brilliant thing you did today. You do realize Justice spirits are on par with Desire demons and given that spirits can vary in power as they change, Vengeance was probably much stronger. You cannot compare it to rage abomination which is the weakest abomination known to Thedas. All evidence we have of spirit possession, be it Wynne or seers, shows us that the spirit never destroys the human host so it was not only Justice did. This is also why Spirit merging is stronger than demonic abomination because there is synergy between the host and spirit.

Uhm... WHAT? The only Pride Abomination we've met, Uldred, was complex, he had motivations and desires beyond utter destruction of everything. So that was a non-sequitur of arguments you just made there.

Demon and spirit power level is not made up like a big rock/paper/scissors game. Justice spirits are not automiatically as powerful as Desire Demons, and more powerful than a Sloth Demon. It all depend on the individual Spirit or Demon. All you can say is that USUALLY Pride Demons tend to be the most powerful Demons for instance, but maybe some extraordinarily powerful Rage Demon (the usually weakest) surpasses even some Pride Demons.

And yes. We already know that a FORCEFUL possession destroys the soul of the mage being possessed. There is no saving a mage who has forcefully been possessed. However, a mage that agreed to the possession can be saved, and can even in some cases retain control.

 

Anders AND Wynne are BOTH Abominations, by the technical term. However Wynne is obviously a more benevolent of the kind than the average lot.

[Lulupab]

Uhm... WHAT? The only Pride Abomination we've met, Uldred, was complex, he had motivations and desires beyond utter destruction of everything. So that was a non-sequitur of arguments you just made there.
Demon and spirit power level is not made up like a big rock/paper/scissors game. Justice spirits are not automiatically as powerful as Desire Demons, and more powerful than a Sloth Demon. It all depend on the individual Spirit or Demon. All you can say is that USUALLY Pride Demons tend to be the most powerful Demons for instance, but maybe some extraordinarily powerful Rage Demon (the usually weakest) surpasses even some Pride Demons.
And yes. We already know that a FORCEFUL possession destroys the soul of the mage being possessed. There is no saving a mage who has forcefully been possessed. However, a mage that agreed to the possession can be saved, and can even in some cases retain control.
 
Anders AND Wynne are BOTH Abominations, by the technical term. However Wynne is obviously a more benevolent of the kind than the average lot.

So what you just said literally means nothing about Anders is "short" and "simple". Just because he is technically an abomination which is a broad umbrella term as mentioned, doesn't mean he is just an abomination. He is much more than that.

[raging_monkey]

Technically, any mage possessed by a spirit is an abomination by the Chantry's terms. A tree possessed by a spirit would be a sylavan, a wolf would be like witherfang, or a werewolf. Wynne would be an abomination just like Anders is, or Thrask's daughter, or even Uldred.  There are obvious differences in mental faculties, and in some of them, madness and deformities and and such aren't even present, like Wynne.  It sort of reminds me of a conversation my Warden can have with Morrigan. Warden: Aren't abominations usually insane horrors?Morrigan: How often is this 'usually'? Is it always? If it is not always, then when is it not so? A loose, umbrella like definition would give the average templar and citizen of Thedas a real thing to look out for, but look at the details, and you'll find that things aren't always what has been preached. If Anders is an abomination because of his possession, then Wynne and Evangeline are equally guilty of the same thing. If she is not an abomination because she is no mad or deformed, then neither is Anders when he is control of his faculties.  The loose definition works for the average person because that's what they're most likely to come across should they come across an abomination. But if the mage in question is possessed of a spirit and doesn't show it, and still ha control of their thoughts and actions, then the average person wouldn't even know about it. Look at how many patients Anders helped over the years. How many of them do you think knew that they were in the presence of a Fade Spirit? How many mages that met Wynne knew she was possessed as well? How many templars knew before the final events of Asunder?

a great analyse

[EmperorSahlertz]

So what you just said literally means nothing about Anders is "short" and "simple". Just because he is technically an abomination which is a broad umbrella term as mentioned, doesn't mean he is just an abomination. He is much more than that.

I never said Anders himself was short and simple. I said the subject matter of wether or not he is an Abomination is short and simple. He IS an Abomination. There is no discussing this. He is a mage possessed by a spirit from the Fade ie. he is an Abomination. Short and simple. He is however one of the more complex individuals, no doubt a result of the demon inside of him, and the nature of his possession.

[raging_monkey]

Isnt vengence a spectrum of rage? If so would he be a weak abomination since rage is on the lowist demon pyramid?

[Br3admax]

Isnt vengence a spectrum of rage? If so would he be a weak abomination since rage is on the lowist demon pyramid?

No. Not only is Vengeance not a rage demon, the strength of the abomination is also determined by the strength of the mage. 

[raging_monkey]

No. Not only is Vengeance not a rage demon, the strength of the abomination is also determined by the strength of the mage.

ahh then what type abomination is he if not rage?

[Icy Magebane]

ahh then what type abomination is he if not rage?

The classical definitions don't really take into account spirits that become corrupted.  Traditionally, the Circle considers pride, rage, desire, sloth, and hunger to be the main demonic types, so those are the only ones who commonly have abominations associated with them.

 

edit:  DA:I is apparently introducing more demon types such as terror, so expect that to be revised in the new codex entries...

[Master Warder Z_]

We should go back to discussing Anders exploding like a helicopter.

 

That was enjoyable for all.

[raging_monkey]

We should go back to discussing Anders exploding like a helicopter. That was enjoyable for all.

yes it was

[dragonflight288]

ahh then what type abomination is he if not rage?

 

A vengeance abomination. Or a justice one.

 

Spirits embody a certain virtue or vice, and they strive to be everything that encompasses that trait. Demons, by the Chantry's own lore, are nothing more than spirits that embody the darker aspects of the human psyche. They differentiate the spirits and the demons based on what they represent.

[EmperorSahlertz]

Isnt vengence a spectrum of rage? If so would he be a weak abomination since rage is on the lowist demon pyramid?

Rage Demons are usually the weakest of the lot. However if a Rage Demon were to identify to a particular aspect of rage, such as vegenance (an aspect specifically pointed out by DG to be in the Rage Demons' repertoire) then it would be one of the more powerful of its kind, since it would have gained complexity.

[raging_monkey]

A vengeance abomination. Or a justice one. Spirits embody a certain virtue or vice, and they strive to be everything that encompasses that trait. Demons, by the Chantry's own lore, are nothing more than spirits that embody the darker aspects of the human psyche. They differentiate the spirits and the demons based on what they represent.

perhaps the chantry is wrong then?

[Br3admax]

Except they aren't, and the elves support them. They only differ on trusting them or not, the elves trusting all and now trusting none, where as the Chantry supports benevolent spirits. 

[raging_monkey]

But rage can be benevelent at times (see somthing of great moral injustice)

[Br3admax]

But rage can be benevelent at times (see somthing of great moral injustice)

That is not rage. That is Justice. 

[Grieving Natashina]

Robes and skirts?  Ooh, it's been awhile.  I'm actually someone that would like as much of peaceful ground as possible, but I can't decide until I talk to the people involved with the game.  DA2 was a very bad example of both groups, and I'm hoping now we can see a little more of a three dimensional view of them.

 

 In short, I'll get back to you in November.  

[raging_monkey]

Mmm true but if justice temped by rage becomez vengence cant vengence be just at times. From a philoshpical point?

[EmperorSahlertz]

Mmm true but if justice temped by rage becomez vengence cant vengence be just at times. From a philoshpical point?

Justice is objective. Vengeance is subjective.

[Master Warder Z_]

Justice is objective. Vengeance is subjective.

 

Both are pretty subjective.