3241 réponses à ce sujet

[Br3admax]

Justice is objective. Vengeance is subjective.

It's the mindset you're in when carrying out the act. 

[Ultim Asari]

I will be siding with the Inquisition first playthrough, this is to prevent favoritism from myself since I can't decide between the two. Second Templars, third mages.

[raging_monkey]

Hmm then shouldnt all spirits be subjective

[Br3admax]

Hmm then shouldnt all spirits be subjective

Nah. Demons try to steal your mind and corrupt everything around them. Spirits don't. Nothing subjective about that. 

[raging_monkey]

Nah. Demons try to steal your mind and corrupt everything around them. Spirits don't. Nothing subjective about that.

man this complicated trying to be open minded but somethings dont make sense

[EmperorSahlertz]

Both are pretty subjective.

Justice is at its core as a concept objective and absolute. It is the balance of things. We TRY to approximate justice with our justice systems, though attaining true pure justice is impossible.

 

Vengeance is by its core subjective. It is the pursuit of revenge for a slight you suffered.

[dragonflight288]

Hmm then shouldnt all spirits be subjective

 

In a sense. Rage demons are in a constant rage, they rage at everything, rage at having nothing to rage at, but raging is all they can truly do. Valor would seek honor in combat, and he tells you this flat out in the mage origin. He sees weapons as a 'need' for combat. Desire covers a whole host of things as what someone desires may change from person to person, so a desire demon is higher up the hierarchy. 

 

Spirits are representations of subjective thoughts, ideals, or emotions, taken to an extreme, and then try to embody every aspect of that identity that they have taken upon themselves. 

 

But on that note, the very idea of justice and vengeance cannot exist unless there has been a wrong done or a crime committed. The very concept has no place in the world unless there is a wrong already present in some form. Even if it's subjective, the person seeing it as justice or vengeance has to have had something done to them to warrant such an action or emotion. 

 

 

Nah. Demons try to steal your mind and corrupt everything around them. Spirits don't. Nothing subjective about that. 

 

Spirits and demons are the exact same in concept. Representations of ideals, emotions and vices. The biggest difference between the two groups that the more "benevolent" spirits, and that term can be used loosely in the Dragon Age Universe, pity mortals and shun them, and don't actively try to help them in their struggles, and are content to live their own lives, whereas the demons want to experience what it is to be mortal and want to experience the land of the living. 

 

Justice in Awakening and Justice in DA2 are very different, and yet not really as the foundation for the change is right there in Awakening. Justice starts off not caring about the mortal world, seeking 'justice' even in the world, by avenging Kristoff's death. He also showed his definition of justice wasn't always death. He advises Velanna that she must atone for her crimes, and live her life helping humans, not being quick to judgement, and learning from her mistakes in the forest when she killed all the merchants, and that would be a form of justice for her. 

 

But as time progresses, he can talk to the Warden and he is growing more complicated. He is envious of what Aura and Kristoff had with each other, and expresses a growing desire to learn and experience what the mortal world has. All the while getting advice from Nathanial on how possessing a willing person would separate him from the demons would would happily possess something by force, and Justice lecturing Anders on how he should take a larger part in bringing justice to all mages. 

 

And this is all in Awakening before he becomes Vengeance. 

 

As such, it is not true that not all spirits don't avoid people, and so on. The nature of spirits and demons are the same, but they do have different powers, different personifications, and embody different things, but their overall nature remains the same. 

 

Most spirits don't possess people. But we know next to nothing about the Seers of Rivain, save that they allow themselves to be possessed, and they are honored by their society, even by the non-mages of it, and it is so ingrained into their culture that  the Chantry had to allow more rights than other Circles had because the non-mages threw such a big fuss over it. Until the Circle was annulled that is. 

 

Given our lack of knowledge of these Seers, we should avoid dealing in absolutes when it comes to spirits and demons being different from each other in that regard. 

[Vaseldwa]

While I feel both sides have completely lost there minds and my PC's dont follow the religions of thedas, but since I have to choose "as far as I know" I will be siding with the templars. Again my PC's doesn't follow the religions but agree with the templars on some things concerning mages. (except tranquility,just no) 

[Vaseldwa]

Double post 

[Br3admax]

*snip*

 

I'm not sure where you saw me disagreeing with any of that. 

[thetinyevil]

While I feel both sides have completely lost there minds and my PC's dont follow the religions of thedas, but since I have to choose "as far as I know" I will be siding with the templars. Again my PC's doesn't follow the religions but agree with the templars on some things concerning mages. (except tranquility,just no) 

Siding with the Templars means that all mages will be killed or made Tranquil. You know that right?

[Vaseldwa]

Siding with the Templars means that all mages will be killed or made Tranquil. You know that right?

 

Really How do you know?

[raging_monkey]

In a sense. Rage demons are in a constant rage, they rage at everything, rage at having nothing to rage at, but raging is all they can truly do. Valor would seek honor in combat, and he tells you this flat out in the mage origin. He sees weapons as a 'need' for combat. Desire covers a whole host of things as what someone desires may change from person to person, so a desire demon is higher up the hierarchy.  Spirits are representations of subjective thoughts, ideals, or emotions, taken to an extreme, and then try to embody every aspect of that identity that they have taken upon themselves.  But on that note, the very idea of justice and vengeance cannot exist unless there has been a wrong done or a crime committed. The very concept has no place in the world unless there is a wrong already present in some form. Even if it's subjective, the person seeing it as justice or vengeance has to have had something done to them to warrant such an action or emotion.    Spirits and demons are the exact same in concept. Representations of ideals, emotions and vices. The biggest difference between the two groups that the more "benevolent" spirits, and that term can be used loosely in the Dragon Age Universe, pity mortals and shun them, and don't actively try to help them in their struggles, and are content to live their own lives, whereas the demons want to experience what it is to be mortal and want to experience the land of the living.  Justice in Awakening and Justice in DA2 are very different, and yet not really as the foundation for the change is right there in Awakening. Justice starts off not caring about the mortal world, seeking 'justice' even in the world, by avenging Kristoff's death. He also showed his definition of justice wasn't always death. He advises Velanna that she must atone for her crimes, and live her life helping humans, not being quick to judgement, and learning from her mistakes in the forest when she killed all the merchants, and that would be a form of justice for her.  But as time progresses, he can talk to the Warden and he is growing more complicated. He is envious of what Aura and Kristoff had with each other, and expresses a growing desire to learn and experience what the mortal world has. All the while getting advice from Nathanial on how possessing a willing person would separate him from the demons would would happily possess something by force, and Justice lecturing Anders on how he should take a larger part in bringing justice to all mages.  And this is all in Awakening before he becomes Vengeance.  As such, it is not true that not all spirits don't avoid people, and so on. The nature of spirits and demons are the same, but they do have different powers, different personifications, and embody different things, but their overall nature remains the same.  Most spirits don't possess people. But we know next to nothing about the Seers of Rivain, save that they allow themselves to be possessed, and they are honored by their society, even by the non-mages of it, and it is so ingrained into their culture that  the Chantry had to allow more rights than other Circles had because the non-mages threw such a big fuss over it. Until the Circle was annulled that is.  Given our lack of knowledge of these Seers, we should avoid dealing in absolutes when it comes to spirits and demons being different from each other in that regard.

ahh that i can understand. Ive always been confused about spirits due to anders' case

[Master Warder Z_]

Siding with the Templars means that all mages will be killed or made Tranquil. You know that right?

 

Or they will go back to the circle?

 

The Templars want a return to the status quo.

 

You know that right?

[thetinyevil]

Or they will go back to the circle?

 

The Templars want a return to the status quo.

 

You know that right?

Nope. I highly doubt that. Templars hate mages and just want them dead. And the Status Quo is a death sentence, just a really slow horriblely painful death sentence.

[Vaseldwa]

Or they will go back to the circle?

 

The Templars want a return to the status quo.

 

You know that right?

 

I certainly hope this can be done, to some extent. I doubt it will be exactly how it was though.  

[EmperorSahlertz]

Nope. I highly doubt that. Templars hate mages and just want them dead. And the Status Quo is a death sentence, just a really slow horriblely painful death sentence.

What?! Templar don't hate mages... Honestly what kind of bullshit is this to spew??

[Master Warder Z_]

I certainly hope this can be done, to some extent. I doubt it will be exactly how it was though.  

 

Well think about; Asunder painted the templar war strategy plainly.

 

Defeat the rebellion, return to the chantry and negotiate better terms.

 

They have no notion of "killing all mages" or any other such nonsense.

[thetinyevil]

Really How do you know?

They're templars. They don't want peace. I mean come on the templars butcher a farmer because they can't tell the difference between a staff and a shovel. Does that sound like people who want to take people alive? Not to me. If the templars are sided with they will demand that all mages be killed or they will abandon the Inquisition.

[raging_monkey]

Not every templar are like kirkwall's branch nor like lambert most are reasonable want peaceful resolution just like most magi want a peacefull resolution. Kirkwall was a bad case for both factions

[Master Warder Z_]

nor like lambert 

 

Lambert wanted peace, he just didn't want the mages to breach containment.

 

He also didn't care for the divine killing his men, betraying both his and the templar order and...etc.

[thetinyevil]

What?! Templar don't hate mages... Honestly what kind of bullshit is this to spew??

Oh so monster, robe are terms of enderment. Beating a mage for speaking to a mundane is out of love. Right. Templars are chosen because of their Zeal and hate of all tings magic. Templars hate mages and want them dead.

[Master Warder Z_]

This has to be the most deluded anti templar propaganda i have seen on these forums in years.

 

Kudos.

[Steelcan]

They're templars. They don't want peace. I mean come on the templars butcher a farmer because they can't tell the difference between a staff and a shovel. Does that sound like people who want to take people alive? Not to me. If the templars are sided with they will demand that all mages be killed or they will abandon the Inquisition.

and mages set people who look at them funny on fire

[EmperorSahlertz]

Oh so monster, robe are terms of enderment. Beating a mage for speaking to a mundane is out of love. Right. Templars are chosen because of their Zeal and hate of all tings magic. Templars hate mages and want them dead.

Wait... So you judge ALL Templars by the actions of a few? That is about as dumb as judging all mages by the example of all Blood Mages in Kirkwall... Especially consdiering we have examples of Templars distinctly NOT hating mages..