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Mages or Templars?


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#851
Br3admax

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Yeah torture, illegally making Harrowed mages tranquil,

Meredith didn't do this. 

 

 

 doing nothing as her templars rape the mages. 

 What was she supposed to do again? It's not like anyone told her about it. 

 Is that what you are saying because they are mages all the things done to them was okay and they deserved it? Is that what you are saying?
They deserved to be annulled for using blood magic. The fact that they use so much of it at the end only shows how proficient they were in it. Or do you honestly believe Orsino and Pals learned that on the fly? 


#852
raging_monkey

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Elthina could have called in the Seekers, and Meredith wouldn't have a choice any more.  Like it or hate it, doing something is still better than doing nothing and hoping things get better.

very true and i agree but elthnia was a pacifist(my interpetation) and just hoped people would calm down. If anders didnt go batbrained things might been different

#853
thetinyevil

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Meredith didn't do this. 

 What was she supposed to do again? It's not like anyone told her about it. 

They deserved to be annulled for using blood magic. The fact that they use so much of it at the end only shows how proficient they were in it. Or do you honestly believe Orsino and Pals learned that on the fly? 

 

One problem. The blood mages were outside the Circle. And the ones during the annulment I don;t blame them. I would have done the same thing. I wouldn't want to die and if using blood magic means I might get to live well I would use blood magic. 



#854
Steelcan

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One problem. The blood mages were outside the Circle. And the ones during the annulment I don;t blame them. I would have done the same thing. I wouldn't want to die and if using blood magic means I might get to live well I would use blood magic. 

there were blood mages inside the Circle as well



#855
Br3admax

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One problem. The blood mages were outside the Circle. And the ones during the annulment I don;t blame them. I would have done the same thing. I wouldn't want to die and if using blood magic means I might get to live well I would use blood magic. 

They had to already know how to sue it before, to use it now. Especially without being possessed. 



#856
dragonflight288

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Meredith wasn't doing anything illegal, technically. So the Seekers would have come up with a whole lot of nothing on the Templars, and a whole lot of dirt on the mages in Kirkwall in general (resolutionists, underground, blood mages galore).

 

I never said she was doing anything illegal when it came to the Annulment. I outright cited Gaider saying that what she did was legal, under barebone technicalities. 

 

But I also said that what she did was unjustifiable since she was punishing a group that had nothing to do with the crime, and Gaider also said the same thing. 

 

But the Seekers could have gotten her out of her position as the defacto Viscount. She never should have had that position. We know from Alfstanna's brother in Origins that Templars have to give up their titles and rights to rule to be templars. They could have had her out for having a death squad going around killing non-mages in broad daylight without ever once taking them to the magistrate. They could have removed her for interfering with Kirkwall's politics in that she refused to hand over power to the nobles in the city.

 

Heck, they could have declared her unfit to lead because of the red lyrium idol affecting her sanity. 

 

 

1. I sided with her. Wasn't annulled. The some of the mages get away to spread the word. You also don't have to actually let her kill everyone. 

2. That really doesn't change my point. Meredith being crazy is irrelevant. 

3. Legality is the only justification needed.

4. Nope. Go play again. 

 

1. Gaider says that the three mages you can spare are made tranquil. An annulment requires the complete purge of everything. Every elderly person, every man, every woman and every child. If every single one of them is not killed or made tranquil, it is not an Annulment, and that's what she called for. An annulment is nothing less than legalized genocide. 

2/3. It does change your point, and this ties in with three. It address your point in that Meredith would have been punished by her superiors for doing something she had every legal right to do, but no real justification to do so, because she was affectively slaughtering an entire group of people down to the children for a crime that they had nothing to do with. 

 

I'll take David Gaider, the lead writer of Dragon Age's word over justification vs legality over yours. Simply because by using your argument, it is perfectly fine to turn a blind eye to real injustices simply because it isn't actually illegal to do them. 

 

4. I have played again. Many mages escape when Hawke sides with the mages when Meredith gives the ultimatum, and the mages who weren't in the circle spread the word if you side with the templars. 


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#857
Br3admax

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1. Gaider says that the three mages you can spare are made tranquil. An annulment requires the complete purge of everything. Every elderly person, every man, every woman and every child. If every single one of them is not killed or made tranquil, it is not an Annulment, and that's what she called for. An annulment is nothing less than legalized genocide. 

2/3. It does change your point, and this ties in with three. It address your point in that Meredith would have been punished by her superiors for doing something she had every legal right to do, but no real justification to do so, because she was affectively slaughtering an entire group of people down to the children for a crime that they had nothing to do with. 

 

I'll take David Gaider, the lead writer of Dragon Age's word over justification vs legality over yours. Simply because by using your argument, it is perfectly fine to turn a blind eye to real injustices simply because it isn't actually illegal to do them. 

 

4. I have played again. Many mages escape when Hawke sides with the mages when Meredith gives the ultimatum, and the mages who weren't in the circle spread the word if you side with the templars. 

1. Except mages are shown to escape. Not everyone was captured, whether you like it or not. 

2/3 Meredith wouldn't have been punished because the Circle was full of blood mages. 

4. The mages escape either way. The fact that Meredith wanted to kill them all doesn't mean every single one stood there in the Gallows and waited for her to come kill them. 



#858
Sir DeLoria

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35 pages in one day?

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#859
Sir DeLoria

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And the ones during the annulment I don;t blame them. I would have done the same thing. I wouldn't want to die and if using blood magic means I might get to live well I would use blood magic.


Because being posessed by a demon or ending up as human sacrifice is way better than death :lol:

#860
raging_monkey

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35 pages in one day?7296330.gif

dancingvin circles goes by fast doesnt it

#861
dragonflight288

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1. Except mages are shown to escape. Not everyone was captured, whether you like it or not. 

2/3 Meredith wouldn't have been punished because the Circle was full of blood mages. 

4. The mages escape either way. The fact that Meredith wanted to kill them all doesn't mean every single one stood there in the Gallows and waited for her to come kill them. 

 

1. Fine, some mages escaped being killed for something they didn't do, and thus they were outside the Circle and were able to spread word. But every mage who was in the Circle was killed or made tranquil unless Hawke saved them by siding with the mages.

2/3. Gaider outright said she would so you're wrong.

4. You're just repeating an earlier point. 



#862
Sir DeLoria

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dancingvin circles goes by fast doesnt it


Yeah and it's fun while it lasts I guess.

#863
Br3admax

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1. Fine, some mages escaped being killed for something they didn't do, and thus they were outside the Circle and were able to spread word. But every mage who was in the Circle was killed or made tranquil unless Hawke saved them by siding with the mages.

2/3. Gaider outright said she would so you're wrong.

4. You're just repeating an earlier point. 

1. Mages escaping the Circle were still a part of the Circle. 

2/3 That's nice. She had the legal authority to do it, and the Tower was full of blood mages. She'd go before the Divine and receive a commendation. No one's going to remove her for destroying blood mages. 

4. I'm responding to someone, so I'll respond to their points in the order they give them, if that's okay with you. 



#864
Master Warder Z_

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Templar_da2.jpg


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#865
raging_monkey

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Yeah and it's fun while it lasts I guess.

just sit back and watch. Popcorn?

#866
EmperorSahlertz

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Yeah torture, illegally making Harrowed mages tranquil, doing nothing as her templars rape the mages. Yeah nothing illegal unless you are saying all those things are not illegal. Is that what you are saying because they are mages all the things done to them was okay and they deserved it? Is that what you are saying?

None of which Meredith did herself and most of which was done behind her back..


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#867
thetinyevil

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Templar_da2.jpg

Mages, wherever you hide I will find you and kill you!!


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#868
Hellion Rex

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None of which Meredith did herself and most of which was done behind her back..

http://dragonage.wik..._Templar_Letter



#869
thetinyevil

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None of which Meredith did herself and most of which was done behind her back..

Then she was the most incompetent Knight-Commander in the history of Thedas. 



#870
Br3admax

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You can't blame people for missing that one, though. I found out about it by mistake one playthrough. 


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#871
Master Warder Z_

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Mages, wherever you hide I will find you and kill you!!

 

Shush.



#872
Sir DeLoria

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just sit back and watch. Popcorn?


Yep, that's what I'm doing.

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#873
Hellion Rex

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You can't blame people for missing that one, though. I found out about it by mistake one playthrough. 

Dammit, who showed this one to me....ah! Lol, it was Lord Raijin of all people who showed me this letter. I had no idea it existed till about 6 months ago.



#874
EmperorSahlertz

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But the Seekers could have gotten her out of her position as the defacto Viscount. She never should have had that position. We know from Alfstanna's brother in Origins that Templars have to give up their titles and rights to rule to be templars. They could have had her out for having a death squad going around killing non-mages in broad daylight without ever once taking them to the magistrate. They could have removed her for interfering with Kirkwall's politics in that she refused to hand over power to the nobles in the city.

 

Heck, they could have declared her unfit to lead because of the red lyrium idol affecting her sanity. 

This is what I was referring to. Meredith blocking the election of a new Viscount is not technically illegal. It is a common strategic move of the person with the most military power to block this type of deal, until a political enviroment favorable to the military power that be is in place. As long as she didn't crown herself Viscount she wasn't breaking any laws.

 

Killing non-mages is NOT outside the juridstiction of Templars. The death squads was targetting people who had specifically helped mages escape the Circle. While certainly despicable and over-zealous, we do not have any concrete proof that such actions from Templars are illegal, nor that Meredith herself even sent them out. No doubt she did, but if it was illegal, then you can be sure she had plausible deniability regarding it.

 

Again, as the largest military power in the city, her mere presence is influencing politics, the ONLY way to reduce her influence would be to transfer the majority of Templars away. A move which would probably be considered a distinctly bad move, considering the vast amount of magical crime happening in and around Kirkwall.

 

The Seekers had no way of known about the existance of the idol without interviewing Varric and/or Hawke, both of who would have no interet in telling the Seekers anything incriminating themselves.

 

Basically all the Seekers would have come up with, would be that Meredith was taking extreme measures to handle an extreme situation. Hell, they might even slap a medal on her.



#875
EmperorSahlertz

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Then she was the most incompetent Knight-Commander in the history of Thedas. 

Yeah..... She was totally supposed to know something she didn't know she didn't know..... Do I have to point why this is an absurd claim, or can you figure it out on your own?


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