3241 réponses à ce sujet

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

That's the positive aspect of siding with them, yeah.

I'm sure the foreign powers with their own mages and an interest in conquering Thedas will thank you. (Bear in mind that the main antagonists seem to be led by mages.)

[Cainhurst Crow]

What? It's not the qunari's business if the Chantry suddenly decides to station half of the Seekers in Kirkwall.
So, when is that ship coming? Can we give you one?
 
Seriously, qunari are not the type to be afronted by anything. They would have probably understood the need for caution.

Honestly given how the arishock is, if they had done that and stationed them right outside the compound with big "we hate you go home" signs, he'd have probably had some modicum of respect for the chantry and the viscount.

At least then they'd be honest in their intentions and actions.

[Cainhurst Crow]

Anyway, I'm not siding with either of them until I get to play inquisition and see what's become of either side. They've lost both my trust and respect over the course of the dragon age series, mages being manipulative and shrugging off any and all personal responsibility or their accountability to harming others, and the templars being a semi-abusive and pompous order in need of a good wallop or two.

And considering moreso I'll be playing a tal-vashoth, I'll have more then enough reason not to give a crap about either of their plights, even if I'm a mage or a templar. None of them would have helped me if I needed it, why the **** should I go help them, if all I'm going to get is proselytized and then physically assaulted when I tell them no?

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Honestly given how the arishock is, if they had done that and stationed them right outside the compound with big "we hate you go home" signs, he'd have probably had some modicum of respect for the chantry and the viscount.

At least then they'd be honest in their intentions and actions.

He wouldn't have actually obeyed those signs. He couldn't. It was his job to stay in Kirkwall and investigate the Tome's whereabouts. He might have been impressed by the show of power, but unless the Chantry decided to cut a deal and hand Isabella and the Tome over he was not psychologically capable of doing other than he did. (Though at least having actual soldiers besides the Qunari guards watching the entrance to the compound might have mitigated the problem rather a lot.)

[Cainhurst Crow]

He wouldn't have actually obeyed those signs. He couldn't. It was his job to stay in Kirkwall and investigate the Tome's whereabouts. He might been impressed by the show of power, but unless the Chantry decided to cut a deal and hand Isabella and the Tome over he was not psychologically capable of doing other than he did. (Though at least having actual soldiers besides the Qunari guards watching the entrance to the compound might have mitigated the problem rather a lot.)

I said he'd have more respect for them. I didn't say he'd obeyed. Same way he had for hawke if you admitted to doing things against his fellow qunari. Not hiding your actions and lying through your teeth.

[EmperorSahlertz]

I'd think they would... make inquiries, or investigate, or you know, conduct questioning. But you're saying they wouldn't do that? What then, is your idea of what they should do?

My point is, that the Seeker WERE preset, they were just playing it safe and being secretive. choosing not to charge in all gung-ho like an arresting everyone within sight. They had the brain function to realize that the situation in Kirkwall, was much more delicate than just one person doing something wrong, so they wanted all the pieces before moving out. So they WERE questioning people and they WERE investigating. I am saying that doing these things would NOT come up with the results you imply.

 

What we know for sure is that the information they had regarding the event was erroneous, and required a further, more in-depth investigation. That this is the case means that they either did not have a presence beyond Leliana, or that they just do shitty work. I think either way Thedas should feel a lot more comfortable if they did not return to work post DA:I.

Uhm.. Or that they weren't players who were privy to much more knowledge than ANY other in Thedas? Seriously what is it with the armchair generals here? How in the name of all that is holy, would the Seekers be supposed to know that not only did Hawke find some ancient Red Lyrium (a substance previously unknown to Thedas), but that this idol was influencing everyone around it, in particular Meredith? Meredith which no one even knew had bought the idol...

 

A lot of people demand that the Seekers know something they had no chance of knowing. What people fail to realize is that they only know because the game specifically TOLD them. They didn't deduce ANYTHING on their own. Yet for some f'ed up reason, they think that because they know, everyone in the game should know as well. That is faulty logic if I ever saw some.

 

What about Meredith?

She is the highest ranking Templar in Kirkwall, and her corruption would be cause for the Seekers to be present. However, she wasn't going off the deep end until Act III, meaning the Seekers didn't really have a reason to be present before.

 

 

 

Yes, entire conspiracies operating inside the Circle and undermining the Templar Order is not cause for the Seekers' presence.

Not really no, since the Templars themselves are perfectly equiped to deal with that sort of thing themselves. As evidenced by, you know, the Templars dealing with it themselves...

[Br3admax]

 

And I feel like some of the pro-templars here are either trolls or sociopaths; either way it adds to my dislike

I've seen one person in this thread call for all out genocide, with at least half of you guys talking about how mage life is more important than any other and that it's okay to murder people in the name of freedom. You got that the other way around. 

[dragonflight288]

Ermm.....

 

I know Xil will call out for the complete destruction of the templars and the Chantry in the name of mage freedom, but how many other mage supporters actually support murder and call for it?

 

I haven't seen that many. 

[Br3admax]

Read through this thread. 

[Gileadan]

I am pro common folk of Thedas. You know, the ones without plate armor or magic. When a faction turns out to be a threat to them, it's check-out time.

[RobRam10]

Make Love Not War.

 

*snip*

Heresy!

[MisterJB]

Pro-Mage. 

 

The Chanty uses lyrium, enchanted items, healers, alchemists, runecrafters, blood magic (phylactery) and mages to fight in wars they cannot fight. Yet they oppress mages, meddle in the affairs of the Dalish and their mages, prohibit some schools of magic. 

 

The Chantry and by that extension, the Templars do not exist to keep the peace or order. They also do not exist to regulate mages. They exist because they are a cult who believes in half truths and they exist to monopolize specific use of magic for their own ends. Cults and monopolizers need some target they can pigeonhole and justify their actions. In this case, it is all mages. 

That is a contradiction. If the Chantry monopolizes a specific use of magic then, by definition, they regulate magic.

If the end goal of the Chantry is peace and order (and we have no reason to believe it is not, dislike the Chantry all you want but there is no example of them using mages to destabilize the status quo), then their regulation of magic works to keep peace and order.

 

At any rate, it would be incorrect to say that they "monopolize" magic use since magic is used for the profit of the Circles, not the Chantry. They just provide guidelines on what is and is not acceptable and use the Templars to police its use.

 

 

Therefore, the Chantry is irrelevant. One can train city guards and people to fight against magic should magic and mages become a problem. There is multiple combat styles, enchantment, potions, poisons, traps that can combat magic very effectively.

Combating magic is one aspect of keeping safe, certainly.

However, another aspect would be to prevent conflicts entirely. The Chantry, as an international, respectable organization has managed to keep mages neutral in regards to conflicts between nations; also the simple fact the number of mages living amidst normal society is greatly diminished due to the Circle means the number of magical threats is also lowered;  making the Chantry very much relevant in the aspect of keeping peace.

You could try to argue it is unnecessary and that training city guards would be sufficient but that is a completely different discussion.
 

[Grand Admiral Cheesecake]

Heresy!

 

Sexy sexy heresy.

[Bayonet Hipshot]

That is a contradiction. If the Chantry monopolizes a specific use of magic then, by definition, they regulate magic.

If the end goal of the Chantry is peace and order (and we have no reason to believe it is not, dislike the Chantry all you want but there is no example of them using mages to destabilize the status quo), then their regulation of magic works to keep peace and order.

 

At any rate, it would be incorrect to say that they "monopolize" magic use since magic is used for the profit of the Circles, not the Chantry. They just provide guidelines on what is and is not acceptable and use the Templars to police its use.

 

 

Combating magic is one aspect of keeping safe, certainly.

However, another aspect would be to prevent conflicts entirely. The Chantry, as an international, respectable organization has managed to keep mages neutral in regards to conflicts between nations; also the simple fact the number of mages living amidst normal society is greatly diminished due to the Circle means the number of magical threats is also lowered;  making the Chantry very much relevant in the aspect of keeping peace.

You could try to argue it is unnecessary and that training city guards would be sufficient but that is a completely different discussion.
 

 

They regulate magic for their own purposes but dislike it when other people do the same for themselves, especially the mages who have the actual magical powers.

 

I mean, as long as its Chantry approved, magic is okay. 

 

But enter mages wanting to use magic to be free and live their lives in peace or enter mages who wish to flee the restrictive Circle and go to the Dalish...Then that is heathen, down with them !

 

How do they go about doing the enforcement ? By enticing men and women to consume a highly addictive and degenerative substance over time. As if there was no other way out there like using magebane or magicka draining enchantments or using magic resistance equipments. 

 

That is peace and order achieved based on fear and manipulation....and why ? Because everyone thinks that a bunch of mages caused the Blights and the Darkspawn without actually investigating it. Because a woman once said "magic should serve man and never rule over him". Somehow that idea became imprisonment at the threat of death or forced lobotomy. 

 

That is the problem I have with the Chantry. It is based on flawed philosophy, on things that the Chantry themselves do not know fully about, it enslaves perfectly functioning people to addictive substances, etc. 

[ICevoL]

Technically, any mage possessed by a spirit is an abomination by the Chantry's terms. A tree possessed by a spirit would be a sylavan, a wolf would be like witherfang, or a werewolf. Wynne would be an abomination just like Anders is, or Thrask's daughter, or even Uldred. 

 

There are obvious differences in mental faculties, and in some of them, madness and deformities and and such aren't even present, like Wynne. 

 

It sort of reminds me of a conversation my Warden can have with Morrigan.

 

Warden: Aren't abominations usually insane horrors?

Morrigan: How often is this 'usually'? Is it always? If it is not always, then when is it not so?

 

A loose, umbrella like definition would give the average templar and citizen of Thedas a real thing to look out for, but look at the details, and you'll find that things aren't always what has been preached. If Anders is an abomination because of his possession, then Wynne and Evangeline are equally guilty of the same thing. If she is not an abomination because she is no mad or deformed, then neither is Anders when he is control of his faculties. 

 

The loose definition works for the average person because that's what they're most likely to come across should they come across an abomination. But if the mage in question is possessed of a spirit and doesn't show it, and still ha control of their thoughts and actions, then the average person wouldn't even know about it. Look at how many patients Anders helped over the years. How many of them do you think knew that they were in the presence of a Fade Spirit? How many mages that met Wynne knew she was possessed as well? How many templars knew before the final events of Asunder? 

 

Well said  -- per the wiki entry on abominations, the term applies when a magical being is possessed.  From the section quoted below, the difference is based on how powerful the demon is and how well they cope with being on the physical plane

 

However, the experience of entering the physical realm is overwhelming to the weaker demons, and abominations are often driven mad by the unfamiliar sensations, turning into monstrosities and going on a rampage. The most powerful demons are able to adapt to the new form and even maintain the original physical shape of their host in particular, when the possession is accepted willingly.

 

So in Anders' case (with Vengeance being the corrupted form of the spirit, Justice), the retention of his physical form was due to his willing acceptance of possession and the "strength" of Justice/Vengeance.  With Uldred, I don't know that we get enough information to know if he willingly accepted the possession, or if it was simply that the Pride demon he summoned was powerful enough to overcome his will and maintain Uldred's physical form.

 

From a gameplay perspective, it's a very lucky thing for the player that most Abominations are driven mad, because the "aware" ones are a lot more difficult to deal with in battle. I remember being terrified after listening to Greagoir's speech about them the first time I played the Broken Circle quest... that went away pretty quickly after running into the ones on the first floor.  Those were much easier to deal with than the Arcane Horrors (mage corpses possessed by pride demons)  -- every time I went back to the Circle Tower after the quest, I cringed at all the mage corpses still lying around.  I fully expected one to get possessed and start attacking *shudder*

[raging_monkey]

They regulate magic for their own purposes but dislike it when other people do the same for themselves, especially the mages who have the actual magical powers. I mean, as long as its Chantry approved, magic is okay.  But enter mages wanting to use magic to be free and live their lives in peace or enter mages who wish to flee the restrictive Circle and go to the Dalish...Then that is heathen, down with them ! How do they go about doing the enforcement ? By enticing men and women to consume a highly addictive and degenerative substance over time. As if there was no other way out there like using magebane or magicka draining enchantments or using magic resistance equipments.  That is peace and order achieved based on fear and manipulation....and why ? Because everyone thinks that a bunch of mages caused the Blights and the Darkspawn without actually investigating it. Because a woman once said "magic should serve man and never rule over him". Somehow that idea became imprisonment at the threat of death or forced lobotomy.  That is the problem I have with the Chantry. It is based on flawed philosophy, on things that the Chantry themselves do not know fully about, it enslaves perfectly functioning people to addictive substances, etc.

the same could be said about all faiths in thedas. Mages need freedom yes i agree but do to it unchecked is dangerous. I dislike chantry based oversight as much the next but somebody has to do it else we have a tevinter or a rogue state of magi that may be andrastian or a group of wild cards

[Willowhugger]

He wouldn't have actually obeyed those signs. He couldn't. It was his job to stay in Kirkwall and investigate the Tome's whereabouts. He might have been impressed by the show of power, but unless the Chantry decided to cut a deal and hand Isabella and the Tome over he was not psychologically capable of doing other than he did. (Though at least having actual soldiers besides the Qunari guards watching the entrance to the compound might have mitigated the problem rather a lot.)

 

No, he couldn't. Of course, the whole thing of Dragon Age 2 is about "evil on both sides."

The Arishok was just as dishonest and manipulative as the Chantry.

If he'd just said, "We're looking for the book" they might have found it.

However, he didn't want to give the Chantry fuel or blackmail material.
 

[Willowhugger]

BTW, some of these issues are things I wanted to discuss over in the Dragon Age 2 thread.

I hope people will come by who stabbed Anders or didn't.

 

http://forum.bioware.../#entry17295589

[TK514]

I pity the Mages for the dangers they face and represent by merely existing, but I side with the many over the few.  I believe their quarantine should be as comfortable as possible while maintaining its effectiveness, but I'd treat them like mushrooms in a heartbeat if that's what it took to safeguard the rest of Thedas.

[Hellion Rex]

Ermm.....

 

I know Xil will call out for the complete destruction of the templars and the Chantry in the name of mage freedom, but how many other mage supporters actually support murder and call for it?

 

I haven't seen that many. 

BURN THEM ALL. ALL TEMPLARS MUST SUFFER. THE STREETS WILL RUN RED WITH THEIR BLOOD.

[MisterJB]

They regulate magic for their own purposes but dislike it when other people do the same for themselves, especially the mages who have the actual magical powers.

 

I mean, as long as its Chantry approved, magic is okay. 

 

But enter mages wanting to use magic to be free and live their lives in peace or enter mages who wish to flee the restrictive Circle and go to the Dalish...Then that is heathen, down with them !

Well, that is the whole point of regulations. You determine that some things are acceptable and that some are not. Then you enforce this.

Remove the mages from the control of the Chantry and you'll still need some group to regulate magic that will do the very same. That which is acceptable and that which isn't may change but the principle behind it will remain.

Laws applying to non-mages work in the same way.

 

 

How do they go about doing the enforcement ? By enticing men and women to consume a highly addictive and degenerative substance over time. As if there was no other way out there like using magebane or magicka draining enchantments or using magic resistance equipments.

Why do you think this is an "or" question? I'm certain that when they hunt mages, Templars take everything that can be useful: enchanted armors and weapons, magebane... and lyrium because there's no such thing as "too careful" when we're playing with people's lives.

 

 

That is peace and order achieved based on fear and manipulation....and why ?

 

Yeah, that's basically how the world works. The media manipulates us every day and the only thing that prevents the USA and Russia from going at it is mutually assured destruction.

I don't think the people who didn't die because the Cold War didn't get hot would complain.

 

 

and why ? Because everyone thinks that a bunch of mages caused the Blights and the Darkspawn without actually investigating it. Because a woman once said "magic should serve man and never rule over him". Somehow that idea became imprisonment at the threat of death or forced lobotomy.

I think the observable dangers of magic also have something to do with it.

Violent mages, untrained mages, blood mages, Abominations, Tevinter, etc.

[The Baconer]

My point is, that the Seeker WERE preset, they were just playing it safe and being secretive. choosing not to charge in all gung-ho like an arresting everyone within sight. They had the brain function to realize that the situation in Kirkwall, was much more delicate than just one person doing something wrong, so they wanted all the pieces before moving out.

 

Yes, that's why by Act 3 their hypothesis is "[The Resolutionists] are likely behind the unrest here", which is... hardly even half-correct. Good job guys, good work.

 

I am saying that doing these things would NOT come up with the results you imply.

 

And what results am I implying?

 

Uhm.. Or that they weren't players who were privy to much more knowledge than ANY other in Thedas? Seriously what is it with the armchair generals here? How in the name of all that is holy, would the Seekers be supposed to know that not only did Hawke find some ancient Red Lyrium (a substance previously unknown to Thedas), but that this idol was influencing everyone around it, in particular Meredith? Meredith which no one even knew had bought the idol...

 

A lot of people demand that the Seekers know something they had no chance of knowing. What people fail to realize is that they only know because the game specifically TOLD them. They didn't deduce ANYTHING on their own. Yet for some f'ed up reason, they think that because they know, everyone in the game should know as well. That is faulty logic if I ever saw some.

 

What the **** about Meredith? Seriously, here's a Circle with both factions being replete with corruption, known to be the most dysfunctional in all of Thedas, and all anyone wants to talk about is ****ing Meredith.

 

She is the highest ranking Templar in Kirkwall, and her corruption would be cause for the Seekers to be present.

 

OR the corruption of those ranked below her, OR the corruption of her charges, OR the corruption that plagues the city outside of the Gallows, that Meredith might need assistance in rooting out.

 

Not really no, since the Templars themselves are perfectly equiped to deal with that sort of thing themselves. As evidenced by, you know, the Templars dealing with it themselves...

 

You mean the Templars requiring a private citizen to deal with it for them.

[Bayonet Hipshot]

Well, that is the whole point of regulations. You determine that some things are acceptable and that some are not. Then you enforce this.

Remove the mages from the control of the Chantry and you'll still need some group to regulate magic that will do the very same. That which is acceptable and that which isn't may change but the principle behind it will remain.

 

Laws applying to non-mages work in the same way.

 

 

Why do you think this is an "or" question? I'm certain that when they hunt mages, Templars take everything that can be useful: enchanted armors and weapons, magebane... and lyrium because there's no such thing as "too careful" when we're playing with people's lives.

 

 

 

Yeah, that's basically how the world works. The media manipulates us every day and the only thing that prevents the USA and Russia from going at it is mutually assured destruction. I don't think the people who didn't die because the Cold War didn't get hot would complain.

 

 

I think the observable dangers of magic also have something to do with it.Violent mages, untrained mages, blood mages, Abominations, Tevinter, etc.

 

Who are they to regulate ? What qualifications do they have to be magical regulators ? I can understand the position of a regulator but the Chantry did not become the magi regulator by merit, it became one by lies and revisionist history.

 

Additionally, what do the Chantry members know about magic apart from "Rawr, its evilz, our prophet says it should serve man and never rule over him so deal with it yo !" 

 

How knowledgeable are the Chantry members, how knowledgeable is the average Templar when it comes to magic ? Do they know how it works ? Do they understand its principles ? Have we met any Templar or any Grand Cleric or Revered Mother or lay Sister or Initiate that actually understands what magic is ? 

 

Also who are they to determine what is and what is not acceptable ? Is claiming divine authority from an absentee father figure and using the conveniently manipulated words of a woman who was roasted at the stake give someone authority to be the police, the regulator and to decide what is and what is not acceptable ?

 

I don't think so. One cannot claim to be a regulator and a moderator of something without fully understanding it. The Chantry does not care to understand magic. The Chantry does not care to investigate the validity of the story behind the Tevinter magisters, Old Gods and Darkspawn. The Chantry does not care to understand the Dalish or the Qunari. The Chantry does not even care if their own soldiers are addicted to and die due to lyrium.

 

One also cannot claim to say what is acceptable and what is not acceptable by twisting the words of a long dead woman, by blatant misunderstanding of an event and by claiming divine authority from a divine figure they do not even know exist or not. 

 

I have absolutely no issues with a group that wishes to be an enforcer, a protector and a regulator if they have the merit, if they have a logical rationale to do so. The thing is, the Chantry have no merit and no logical rationale. Just because this is how all faiths work does not mean it is acceptable, tolerable and worthy of preservation. They do not understand and they do not bother to understand (Templars do not learn about magic, they learn about scriptures and instead memorize the Chant of light) the thing they attempt to control and they have no validity to their claims of authority. 

 

Mages should police themselves. We are the ones with the magical ability, we understand it the most, we spend our lives studying it and therefore, we should police ourselves. 

 

On the subject of Cold Wars, it was a period of tension between two superpowers where one was afraid the other would pull the trigger on the nuclear weapon launcher and as such spent the decades in an arms race, in proxy wars in other nations and in espionage. The Cold War was resolved by a series of diplomatic negotiations and deals during the Gorbachev era.

 

I fail to see how this relates to the Mage-Templar War since this war is not a Cold War, it is not a war where arms race & technological fighting was going on, it is not a war that is fought by proxies. It is an actual war, the tension has already bubbled and burst.