3241 réponses à ce sujet

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Mages should police themselves. We are the ones with the magical ability, we understand it the most, we spend our lives studying it and therefore, we should police ourselves. 

Nobody should police themselves where there's any other option.

[The Baconer]

Additionally, what do the Chantry members know about magic apart from "Rawr, its evilz, our prophet says it should serve man and never rule over him so deal with it yo !"

 

Many people have experienced firsthand the consequences of a mage either not being able to control their powers, or choosing to abuse their powers. You don't have to be a mage to know that.

 

While I would agree that taking steps to combat ignorance would be beneficial, leaving it up to the mages to police themselves is not really a solution.

[raging_monkey]

Who are they to regulate ? What qualifications do they have to be magical regulators ? I can understand the position of a regulator but the Chantry did not become the magi regulator by merit, it became one by lies and revisionist history. Additionally, what do the Chantry members know about magic apart from "Rawr, its evilz, our prophet says it should serve man and never rule over him so deal with it yo !"  How knowledgeable are the Chantry members, how knowledgeable is the average Templar when it comes to magic ? Do they know how it works ? Do they understand its principles ? Have we met any Templar or any Grand Cleric or Revered Mother or lay Sister or Initiate that actually understands what magic is ?  Also who are they to determine what is and what is not acceptable ? Is claiming divine authority from an absentee father figure and using the conveniently manipulated words of a woman who was roasted at the stake give someone authority to be the police, the regulator and to decide what is and what is not acceptable.  I don't think so. One cannot claim to be a regulator and a moderator of something without fully understanding it. The Chantry does not care to understand magic. The Chantry does not care to investigate the validity of the story behind the Tevinter magisters, Old Gods and Darkspawn. The Chantry does not care to  One also cannot claim to say what is acceptable and what is not acceptable by twisting the words of a long dead woman, by blatant misunderstanding of an event and by claiming divine authority from a divine figure they do not even know exist or not.  I have absolutely no issues with a group that wishes to be an enforcer, a protector and a regulator if they have the merit, if they have a logical rationale to do so. The thing is, the Chantry have no merit and no logical rationale. Just because this is how all faiths work does not mean it is acceptable, tolerable and worthy of preservation. They do not understand and they do not bother to understand (Templars do not learn about magic, they learn about scriptures and instead memorize the Chant of light) the thing they attempt to control and they have no validity to their claims of authority.  Mages should police themselves. We are the ones with the magical ability, we understand it the most, we spend our lives studying it and therefore, we should police ourselves.

as a mage player i agree with some of what you say. But the whole coryphusus issue gives strong credence to the mages created darkspawn issue. Regulated magic by other magi is a slippery slope they can be tevinters or be a rogue state which will give the "mundanes" a reason to lead constant marches

[HTTP 404]

I love some of the debate between pro mage and pro Templar here on BSN.  I give the writers (and Gaider) credit for creating this atmosphere in Da2.  I hope they continue to gray the perspectives between the two in the next game.  I think it can be difficult to do.  I always felt like the writing was leaning towards pro-mage in 2 even though I am more pro mage myself.  I do find that one of my favorite characters is Cullen who is a Templar.  I think a lot of pro mages like Cullen as well.

[EmperorSahlertz]

Yes, that's why by Act 3 their hypothesis is "[The Resolutionists] are likely behind the unrest here", which is... hardly even half-correct. Good job guys, good work.

Do you even know what a hypothesis is? It is a claim you make before it is substantiated by evidence. Once evidence back up the hypothesis it becomes a theory. The hypothesis that mages were causing much of the problems in Kirkwall, is well substantiated by evidence, so it is entirely reasonable to make such a claim.
 

And what results am I implying?

That the Seekers somehow would instantly find out what was going on, and deal with it.

 

What the **** about Meredith? Seriously, here's a Circle with both factions being replete with corruption, known to be the most dysfunctional in all of Thedas, and all anyone wants to talk about is ****ing Meredith.

Corruption amongst the lesser ranks of the Templars is NOT the job of the Seekers to fix. The Templar Order itself is perfectly suited to handle this kind of deal. Therefore, only if evidence of coruption amongst the upper echelons of a chapter of Templars would require the involvement of the Seekers. THAT is why Meredith is an important factor. Meredith was not known to be doing anything illegal, nor was there any evidence of her doing so.

 

OR the corruption of those ranked below her, OR the corruption of her charges, OR the corruption that plagues the city outside of the Gallows, that Meredith might need assistance in rooting out.

 

The corruption outside of the city has NOTHING to do with the Seekers' jobs, unless it is of magical nature, so that is pointless.

The lower ranks of Templars who are corrupted (of which there aren't many), are something the Templar Order itself is suited to handle.

The corruption of the mages is something the Templars are CERTAINLY equiped to handle.... It is their JOB.

 

You mean the Templars requiring a private citizen to deal with it for them.

Which they only do if the CHAMPION OF KIRKWALL has previously shown sympathy for the Templar cause. And even if they don't employ him, they still solve the issue on their own. So..... Yeah...

[Willowhugger]

This thread has inspired me to do a multi-part essay for my blog on the subject and how it relates to Freedom vs. Security.

I hope people will check it out when I'm done.

[HTTP 404]

This thread has inspired me to do a multi-part essay for my blog on the subject and how it relates to Freedom vs. Security.

I hope people will check it out when I'm done.

 

Just don't forget to outline the definition(s) of freedom and security to give context.  I will read this.

[PrinceLionheart]

Always been a believer that Templars are a necessary evil. 

 

Yeah, the Gallows from DA2 was the extreme of what happens when they're not kept in check, but Tevinter is the representation of the opposite end. With stuff like Conner potentially killing an entire town because of his lack of control of his powers, there has to be some level a degree of security.

My preferred solution would be a Circle in every major town, that way, Mages aren't yanked from their homes and locked away forever.

[raging_monkey]

I know i will this is becoming humourous

[A Clever Name]

as a mage player i agree with some of what you say. But the whole coryphusus issue gives strong credence to the mages created darkspawn issue. Regulated magic by other magi is a slippery slope they can be tevinters or be a rogue state which will give the "mundanes" a reason to lead constant marches

Actually, arguing that mages left to self-determination would inevitably become like the Tevinter Imperium is a slippery slope argument.  In the context you used this example in, it's a strawman tactic - attempting to scare people rather than truly debating the merits and problems of allowing mages self-governance.  Since you used it, you have to prove a chain of logical implication, else it is injurious to your argument.

 

How would mages become like the Imperium to begin with?  They don't have territory to make a sovereign state, they are scattered across Thedas and they are a multinational organization (and even that's debatable).  That's quite far from some quasi-nation of mages you seem to be implying.  I don't think they have enough sinew between them to properly merge into a nation.

 

Regulation of mages can be done with two layers, come to think of it.  If given most of the weight in determining policies that affect them, mages would be greatly placated.  Meanwhile the force that replaces the Templars (or is the Templars, depending on the individual) acts as a proper policing power rather than puppeteered watchdogs.  Perhaps the Divine would have ultimate veto power over mage-created legislation.  I do think giving mages more weight in decision-making is a better solution than increasing the rigidity of the system they already feel oppressed by.  Things cannot stay the same, if the Mage-Templar War is anything to use as a warning.  Unfortunately it takes extremes to make people reasonable.

 

This thread has inspired me to do a multi-part essay for my blog on the subject and how it relates to Freedom vs. Security.

I hope people will check it out when I'm done.

I will read the hell outta that.  *reveals herself as a political science nerd*

[SnakeCode]

Nobody should police themselves where there's any other option.

Yes. When you consider yourself to be part of a subculture first and foremost, self policing just doesn't work.

 

Mages tend to have a "Mage first, human/elf second" mentality. This way of thinking often leads to an "Us vs them" mentality, never good when you're policing your own. 

 

You aren't going to punish or reprimand a friend or family member (what circle mages consider each other to be) for things that you would punish someone you have no emotional attachment to for. You let them get away with things that should be inexcusable.

 

Mages policing mages would be a disaster.

[raging_monkey]

Actually, arguing that mages left to self-determination would inevitably become like the Tevinter Imperium is a slippery slope argument.  In the context you used this example in, it's a strawman tactic - attempting to scare people rather than truly debating the merits and problems of allowing mages self-governance.  Since you used it, you have to prove a chain of logical implication, else it is injurious to your argument. How would mages become like the Imperium to begin with?  They don't have territory to make a sovereign state, they are scattered across Thedas and they are a multinational organization (and even that's debatable).  That's quite far from some quasi-nation of mages you seem to be implying.  I don't think they have enough sinew between them to properly merge into a nation. Regulation of mages can be done with two layers, come to think of it.  If given most of the weight in determining policies that affect them, mages would be greatly placated.  Meanwhile the force that replaces the Templars (or is the Templars, depending on the individual) acts as a proper policing power rather than puppeteered watchdogs.  Perhaps the Divine would have ultimate veto power over mage-created legislation.  I do think giving mages more weight in decision-making is a better solution than increasing the rigidity of the system they already feel oppressed by.  Things cannot stay the same, if the Mage-Templar War is anything to use as a warning.  Unfortunately it takes extremes to make people reasonable. I will read the hell outta that.  *reveals herself as a political science nerd*

A: i am also a political science nerd
B: i was just playing devils advocate. Mages are capable of self rule butblike people they swing from extremity to moderation. Bit this may never happen due to cultrual hate/fear from mages. I am poor rhetoritician so i doubt ill be properly explaining my views.

[Frogtoad51]

In all seriousness I'm siding with the mages in Inquisition. I actually like the templars better than the mages because they are bad ass holy warriors with sick armor! But there's been too many templar horror stories for me to support them.

 

The templars are extremely brutal in their treatment of mages. Every mage is treated like a criminal. Templars often abuse their power. Innocent mages or mages who have committed very minor crimes can be made Tranquil on a whim. With The Rite of Annulment and The Rite of Tranquility hanging over their heads at all times, mages in the circle live in constant fear of their templar masters. Even good mages will resort to blood magic or side with demons to help them escape. Some mages are even more afraid of the templars than the demons.

 

I like the idea of the templars, holy warriors dedicated to protecting the world from evil magic, but they've taken things too far now and need to be stopped! I'm saving the mages from these assholes.

Modifié par Frogtoad51, 09 septembre 2014 - 06:50 .

[Willowhugger]

Yes. When you consider yourself to be part of a subculture first and foremost, self policing just doesn't work.

 

That's a fairly nonsensical statement.

Otherwise, police wouldn't be able to police Americans.

[raging_monkey]

Da2 was a very bad attempt to show both sides. Kirkwall was a extreme situation abuses yes,bbut half the time they were in legal right(just is debateable)

[MisterJB]

Who are they to regulate ? What qualifications do they have to be magical regulators ?

They are a neutral, international organization whose words are respected by the rulers of nearly every nation in Thedas and since magic is a continent-wide problem with tremendous potential for abuse were any one king to take advantage of it, it makes sense to have a neutral organization that can cross borders dealing with it.

It also steams from the fact that, historically, their armed forces were the only ones who set out to protect the people from mages and that their diplomats were the only ones capable of carrying out negotiations and closing agreements with the mages.

Public approval also gives them legitimacy since the majority of the Thedosians wish to see mages controlled by the Chantry.

Finally, they can enforce it.

So, we have logical, democratical, military and historical reasons why the Chantry should be the ones to do it. What more do you want?

 

Additionally, what do the Chantry members know about magic apart from "Rawr, its evilz, our prophet says it should serve man and never rule over him so deal with it yo !" 

 

How knowledgeable are the Chantry members, how knowledgeable is the average Templar when it comes to magic ? Do they know how it works ? Do they understand its principles ? Have we met any Templar or any Grand Cleric or Revered Mother or lay Sister or Initiate that actually understands what magic is ? 

 

Also who are they to determine what is and what is not acceptable ? Is claiming divine authority from an absentee father figure and using the conveniently manipulated words of a woman who was roasted at the stake give someone authority to be the police, the regulator and to decide what is and what is not acceptable ?

 

I don't think so. One cannot claim to be a regulator and a moderator of something without fully understanding it.

(Templars do not learn about magic, they learn about scriptures and instead memorize the Chant of light)

The Prime-Minister is not expected to have a masters degree in every subject that might affect his country. That's what advisers are for. The role of the Chantry and Templars is not to have a scientific understanding of everything behind magic but to make sure the interests and needs of normal people are not trampled by the mages.

 

Of course, understanding the subject is important and since the inception of the Circles, processes like Tranquility, Harrowing and Phylactheries and Lyrium were all devised to increase security therefore, there is no reason to believe they have no idea of what they're dealing with. After all, they have even devised new ways of using magic.

The average farmer might not be able to distinguish between a drought and magic but a Knight Commander would know better.

 I can post here right now Lambert debating with Rhys over why Cole is a spirit (which he was).

Lambert knew more about magic than a Senior Enchanter. Do you think they promote Templars based on how quickly they can recite the Chant? No organization is that stupid.

 

 

The Chantry does not care to investigate the validity of the story behind the Tevinter magisters, Old Gods and Darkspawn.

Do you think it was a coincidence they just happened to know Magisters had invaded a city in the Fade and returned Tainted and turned into monsters?

Maybe they know more than we do.

 

 

The Chantry does not care to understand the Dalish or the Qunari.

In 8:10 Blessed, Rivaini diplomats were allowed to observe Qunari society.

Do you honestly believe the Chantry leadership is so blind they would choose to not read what they wrote out of zealotry?

Do you think they are that stupid?

And who cares about the Dalish? They're not a major power.

 

The Chantry does not even care if their own soldiers are addicted to and die due to lyrium.

Because there's no other way.

 

One also cannot claim to say what is acceptable and what is not acceptable by twisting the words of a long dead woman, by blatant misunderstanding of an event and by claiming divine authority from a divine figure they do not even know exist or not.

The Circle as an institution does not came to be due to an intepretation of the Chant. It is based on prgamatic decisions like "Blood magic can control the minds of rulers and it can't be drained by our soldiers so, let's ban it."

 

The Chantry may use Andraste as a justification for their actions but their decisions are, first and foremost, pragmatic. After all, there are bit of the Chant that are ignored in favor of reality such as "All men are the work of our Maker's hands."

 

The Chantry understand that, in real life, this does not fly.
 

[SnakeCode]

That's a fairly nonsensical statement.

Otherwise, police wouldn't be able to police Americans.

Not really, Americans aren't exactly a subculture, and police aren't regular civilians. The police are more akin to the Templars than the mages.

 

It's a pretty terrible analogy.

[Hellion Rex]

Always been a believer that Templars are a necessary evil. 

 

Yeah, the Gallows from DA2 was the extreme of what happens when they're not kept in check, but Tevinter is the representation of the opposite end. With stuff like Conner potentially killing an entire town because of his lack of control of his powers, there has to be some level a degree of security.

My preferred solution would be a Circle in every major town, that way, Mages aren't yanked from their homes and locked away forever.

I don't even think it's truly "evil". A necessary oversight for magic to be regulated. I think the Circle as a whole is an important institution, though I'd say that power imbalances in the structure need to be addressed for compromise. That being said, I think the Seekers need to clean house. Seriously.

[SnakeCode]

I don't even think it's truly "evil". A necessary oversight for magic to be regulated. I think the Circle as a whole is an important institution, though I'd say that power imbalances in the structure need to be addressed for compromise. That being said, I think the Seekers need to clean house. Seriously.

Couldn't agree more with this.

[MisterJB]

Mages should police themselves. We are the ones with the magical ability, we understand it the most, we spend our lives studying it and therefore, we should police ourselves.

Nonsense. Again, those charged with policing are the ones with a vetted interest in making sure the people are protected. Allowing mages to police themselves is a recipe for disaster because then, who assures us that they will punish their own members if they commit crimes against normal people?

 

The mages police themselves in Tevinter and humans police themselves even if the victim was an elf. Tell me, do you think these systems are working? Providing safety and justice?

 

On the subject of Cold Wars, it was a period of tension between two superpowers where one was afraid the other would pull the trigger on the nuclear weapon launcher and as such spent the decades in an arms race, in proxy wars in other nations and in espionage. The Cold War was resolved by a series of diplomatic negotiations and deals during the Gorbachev era.

 

I fail to see how this relates to the Mage-Templar War since this war is not a Cold War, it is not a war where arms race & technological fighting was going on, it is not a war that is fought by proxies. It is an actual war, the tension has already bubbled and burst. 

It was simply an example of how peace is often kept precisely due to fear and that that does not make it any less valid.

 

 

[Master Warder Z_]

One day i believe we will discover the inaction by the Seekers in Kirkwall was due to the Divine's meddling.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

The Circle as an institution does not came to be due to an intepretation of the Chant. It is based on prgamatic decisions like "Blood magic can control the minds of rulers and it can't be drained by our soldiers so, let's ban it."

While there are rational arguments against allowing Blood Magic, the Codex that contains what it heavily implies to be the original Chantry decree banning it contains none of them. http://dragonage.wik...ry:_Maleficarum

[Barquiel]

My first inquisitor will be most likely moderately pro-mage. Maybe a "kills every templar on sight" inquisitor on my second playthrough