3241 réponses à ce sujet

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

The Circle system is a fallacy. It's laziness on the Chantry's and Templars' part. Mages are institutionalized on the chance that they could one day be evil in hopes of catching them before they commit the crime. It's convenient for everybody that isn't locked up. It's this type of attitude that's boiled tensions to the point where the apocalypse is going on during Inquisition. 

Were it merely a protection against evil mages I would agree with you. The problem is that mages can go abomination in this setting, and that while the more powerful and competent mages are less likely to turn, we see from a codex entry by Orsino that not even the First Enchanters are safe.

[raging_monkey]

Fear used as a means of control is seen as tyranny to some. Needs of many versus the few breeds a "Us or them" mentality. If you fear mages put them on a island were they either do what most thedosians will do (tevinter) or they make new nation where it will have white chantry views on magic but self-regulating.

[Master Warder Z_]

Fear used as a means of control is seen as tyranny to some. Needs of many versus the few breeds a "Us or them" mentality. If you fear mages put them on a island were they either do what most thedosians will do (tevinter) or they make new nation where it will have white chantry views on magic but self-regulating.

 

Pfft the argument shouldn't even need to be made.

 

Mages have proven themselves dangerous, they have shown what they will do with power and they have shown they lack the means and will to control themselves.

 

Impartiality cannot came from a mage.

 

Especially when the belief that "different" equals "superior" enters the equation.

[Hellion Rex]

Were it merely a protection against evil mages I would agree with you. The problem is that mages can go abomination in this setting, and that while the more powerful and competent mages are less likely to turn, we see from a codex entry by Orsino that not even the First Enchanters are safe.

Bingo.

[Icy Magebane]

The Circle system is a fallacy. It's laziness on the Chantry's and Templars' part. Mages are institutionalized on the chance that they could one day be evil in hopes of catching them before they commit the crime. It's convenient for everybody that isn't locked up. It's this type of attitude that's boiled tensions to the point where the apocalypse is going on during Inquisition. 

That isn't why mages are placed in Circles.  They are placed there so that if one of them becomes an abomination, it doesn't happen in the middle of a crowded marketplace or a remote farmhold.  I think that disregard for the negative side-effects of magical talent is what's really behind this dispute.  All too often people see this as imprisonment, when in fact it's closer to quarantine, or even sanctuary in every Circle that isn't Kirkwall...

 

edit:  eh... looks like I got ninja'd while my internet was down... xD

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

There are alternatives to a guilded cage. But it would be 'inconvenient' for the Templars to leave their Circles and Chantrys and get their hands dirty. The discussion wouldn't even be taking place if a psychotic abomination hadn't blown up a building an killed innocents. That's the problem with the Circle.

No, that's the problem with psychotic abominations. From which it follows that if they're going to form you want it to happen away from the general population. I'm not denying there are alternative ways of dealing with the problem of mages turning evil, but do you have one for this?

[Master Warder Z_]

There are alternatives to a guilded cage. But it would be 'inconvenient' for the Templars to leave their Circles and Chantrys and get their hands dirty. The discussion wouldn't even be taking place if a psychotic abomination hadn't blown up a building and killed innocents. That's the problem with the Circle.

 

It would be a logistical nightmare and have many other far more "mundane" issues if the mages weren't concentrated you realize?

 

Most Capitals have a Chantry/Templar outpost, however outside of those and the circles? We don't know just what sort of facilities they have.

 

Ultimately the Templar Order would need to be heavily expanded to a near ridiculous extent upon if they were to even attempt to play keeper of mages outside of a circle.

[raging_monkey]

Pfft the argument shouldn't even need to be made. Mages have proven themselves dangerous, they have shown what they will do with power and they have shown they lack the means and will to control themselves. Impartiality cannot came from a mage. Especially when the belief that "different" equals "superior" enters the equation.

it can if we let it and i never said there wouldnt be precautions my friend just a island were a group people are shunned can live away from those who hate them. If some mages hold a different= better belief thats them but treating them as criminal is morally wrong. Think of it this way
Island= bigger circle that can reduce damage caused by magic or abominations
A community were mages can choose to help the rest of x nation they choose.
Not every mage are like kirkwall mages like you claim

[Icy Magebane]

There are alternatives to a guilded cage. But it would be 'inconvenient' for the Templars to leave their Circles and Chantrys and get their hands dirty. The discussion wouldn't even be taking place if a psychotic abomination hadn't blown up a building an killed innocents. That's the problem with the Circle.

What kind of alternatives are we talking about here?  Whatever political reasons the Chantry may or may not have for continuing to finance and enforce the Circle system, the fact remains that they have been highly successful in limiting magical disasters for several centuries.  I take it you have a less restrictive idea in mind that would be equally effective in keeping abominations away from populated areas?

[Ieldra]

Nobody should police themselves where there's any other option.

Every self-contained society (such as a nation) ultimately polices itself. If mages are to be members of a community of mages and non-mages, they should be policed by the same institution as everyone else (add a special task force to it for the extra dangers of magic). The most important aspect is that they should be as impartial as possible in the philosophical debate about the merits and dangers of magic. Having the Chantry involved is not acceptable.

 

If the mageborn are to form a separate nation, they will ultimately police themselves like any other nation. Since mageborn are people I believe they have similar ideas of justice as others, and are equally likely to form more or less pleasant societies. There is no "magic malus" in this as the Chantry believes. And as for Tevinter - a sample size of one is not convincing.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Again, laziness. Abominations will always exist regardless of the Circle. Better that the Templars go out and actually do some gum-shoeing than indiscriminately locking people up to avoid nature. 

There's reasons to want abominations to die as quickly as possible besides laziness. Self-preservation, for instance. Or regard for the lives of others.

[Icy Magebane]

Again, laziness. Abominations will always exist regardless of the Circle. Better that the Templars go out and actually do some gum-shoeing than indiscriminately locking people up to avoid nature. 

You do understand that there won't be much need to investigate anything if the mages aren't allowed to become abominations in the first place, right?  Why focus on reaction to a problem that doesn't even exist?  If abominations can be prevented or contained, that should be the focus, not coming up with a way to deal with the aftermath when one attacks some random town.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

No I don't. Not as far as segregating mages from the mundane populace. And I wouldn't argue for it either. Templar outposts similar to police precincts come to mind though.

The one sane thing Meredith said while she was at her worst was "If you cannot tell me another way, do not brand me a tyrant."

[Master Warder Z_]

it can if we let it and i never said there wouldnt be precautions my friend just a island were a group people are shunned can live away from those who hate them. If some mages hold a different= better belief thats them but treating them as criminal is morally wrong. Think of it this way
Island= bigger circle that can reduce damage caused by magic or abominations
A community were mages can choose to help the rest of x nation they choose.
Not every mage are like kirkwall mages like you claim

 

They would never enter politics, or an agreement with another Nation, that's the entire point of the circle.

 

It removes the taint of mage influence from the world of man.

[Hellion Rex]

The one sane thing Meredith said while she was at her worst was "If you cannot tell me another way, do not brand me a tyrant."

One of my favorite lines, I won't lie. Her VA nailed that one.

[SnakeCode]

You do understand that there won't be much need to investigate anything if the mages aren't allowed to become abominations in the first place, right?  Why focus on reaction to a problem that doesn't even exist?  If abominations can be prevented or contained, that should be the focus, not coming up with a way to deal with the aftermath when one attacks some random town.

Exactly. It's a case of prevention vs reaction.

 

Symptomatic treatment isn't the way to go in this case.

[LobselVith8]

She said that she wouldn't kill them, AFTER she was shown how her way was the very genocide that she was claiming the circle supporters were endorsing.

 

She said that she would spare the PEOPLE who surrendered, but she would still wipe the order from the face of Thedas

 

That's a gross exaggeration. Xil said she wouldn't kill the templars who surrendered, and this was in a discussion that focused on the Mage-Templar War. And she was advocating winning the war against the templars; defeating them and dismantling the Order isn't akin to genocide.

[Master Warder Z_]

One of my favorite lines, I won't lie. Her VA nailed that one.

 

It also strikes a pretty serious cord.

 

Insane or no, Meredith ended up being right about damn near everything.

 

Kirkwall was a pit sure, but come on!

[Ieldra]

They would never enter politics, or an agreement with another Nation, that's the entire point of the circle.

 

It removes the taint of mage influence from the world of man.

Is this your opinion or your interpretation of the rationale underlying the Chantry's policy?

 

That last sentence would make my main Inquisitor mark its speaker for assassination. Claiming that mage influence is a taint is akin to calling them a sickness. I find that kind of attitude utterly detestable.

[Master Warder Z_]

That's a gross exaggeration

 

It's Xill.

 

Beyond that, nothing more needs to be said.

[Hellion Rex]

That last sentence would make my main Inquisitor mark its speaker for assassination.

Could certainly put Leliana or maybe Feynriel to good use....