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[Icy Magebane]

So Kirkwall was solely Orsiono's fault? I'm not even gonna mention Anders as he was a grey warden and possessed and an apostate, HE HAD NOTHING TO WITH CIRCLES.

Why other circles have to pay for it? By your own standards all knight commanders must have gone through a full review and the order must have become more careful with recruitment, but obviously it didn't happen aka tyranny against the mages.

No Circle except the one in Kirkwall was at risk until they decided to rebel.  The justification behind the Kirkwall Annulment can be debated, but not the Templars' response to the widespread rebellion that followed.

[raging_monkey]

You're not going to persuade me that Lambert dissolving the Nevarran Accord, separating the Seekers of Truth and the Templar Order from the Chantry, and sending his templar armies after the mages should be overlooked as the declaration of war because the many mages didn't want to live under the rule of the Chantry anymore and took a democratic vote on whether or not to separate.  You seem to be forgetting that Lambert's forces also separated from the Chantry.

in fairness lambert was screwed by the divine while doing his job only to come back to a revolt. Where his people were dying.
All sides are at fault: mages for stirring the pot, templars for abuses and tightening the leash and the divine for trying to make overnight changes

[Master Warder Z_]

No Circle except the one in Kirkwall was at risk until they decided to rebel.  The justification behind the Kirkwall Annulment can be debated, but not the Templars' response to the widespread rebellion that followed.

 

It's kind of sad really, i mean from what we learned a lot of the circles sounded half decent.

 

And yet they rebel anyway just because they can.

[The Baconer]

I strongly doubt it.

 

It's not like they have the authority to say otherwise.

 

 

I'm not sure how effective mage Seekers would be if their job is to arrest Templars...

 

Their inclusion would allow for more effective methods of rooting out both Templar and mage corruption.

 

If a suspect Templar decides to further incriminate themselves by resisting arrest, then no one should lose any sleep when further steps are taken to liquidate them.

[SnakeCode]

You're not going to persuade me that Lambert dissolving the Nevarran Accord, separating the Seekers of Truth and the Templar Order from the Chantry, and sending his templar armies after the mages should be overlooked as the declaration of war because the many mages didn't want to live under the rule of the Chantry anymore and took a democratic vote on whether or not to separate.

 

 

You seem to be forgetting that Lambert's forces also separated from the Chantry.

Lambert vowed to drag the mages back to the circles, he didn't declare war nor did he threaten to kill themages. It's more akin to the police trying to round up escaped prisoners and take them back to jail. If the prisoners resist the arrest then yes, they are the aggressors.

 

 

Lambert and his forces seperated from the chantry only after Justinia gave him no choice. She had deliberately tried to prevent him from doing his job, then sent her agents to kill his men and help the mages escape. She betrayed him, he didn't owe her any loyalty after that.

[Icy Magebane]

Their inclusion would allow for more effective methods of rooting out both Templar and mage corruption.

 

If a suspect Templar decides to further incriminate themselves by resisting arrest, then no one should lose any sleep when further steps are taken to liquidate them.

No, I mean since Templar talents nullify magic... a mage Seeker isn't going to be very useful if one of them resists arrest.  xD

 

edit:  *sigh* second typo of "Templar" in as many posts...

[Icy Magebane]

It's kind of sad really, i mean from what we learned a lot of the circles sounded half decent.

 

And yet they rebel anyway just because they can.

"Give people an inch and they take a mile."  Maybe even the Fraternities are a bad idea...

[Master Warder Z_]

No, I mean since Tempar talents nullify magic... a mage Seeker isn't going to be very useful if one of them resists arrest.  xD

 

Hence why you have just regular old seekers

 

They can dance around Templars.

[The Baconer]

No, I mean since Tempar talents nullify magic... a mage Seeker isn't going to be very useful if one of them resists arrest.  xD

 

They will be if they are given martial training. A lone Seeker confronting a suspect Templar wouldn't be a very common situation anyway. Most likely the Seeker would simply order the Templar's peers (or any accompanying Seekers) to take them into custody.

[LobselVith8]

Lambert vowed to drag the mages back to the circles, he didn't declare war nor did he threaten to kill themages. It's more akin to the police trying to round up escaped prisoners and take them back to jail. If the prisoners resist the arrest then yes, they are the aggressors.

 

Lambert forfeited any legal authority the moment he dissolved the accord; the police comparison is invalidated because the templars rebelled as well.

 

Lambert and his forces seperated from the chantry only after Justinia gave him no choice. She had deliberately tried to prevent him from doing his job, then sent her agents to kill his men and help the mages escape. She betrayed him, he didn't owe her any loyalty after that.

 

Lambert is a Seeker, not a templar; he seemed to have forgotten that, as Asunder addressed.

[raging_monkey]

Lambert forfeited any legal authority the moment he dissolved the accord; the police comparison is invalidated because the templars rebelled as well.  Lambert is a Seeker, not a templar; he seemed to have forgotten that, as Asunder addressed.

it would appear they (mage/templar)all forgot their place @_@

[Master Warder Z_]

Lambert forfeited any legal authority the moment he dissolved the accord; the police comparison is invalidated because the templars rebelled as well.

 

The Templar Order did not dissolve with its leaving of the Chantry, it still has its Mandate and duty.

 

Just because the Divine wants to play favorites with mages, doesn't make the Templar Order's mission not legitimate.

 

So, no it isn't invalidated.

[wcholcombe]

Lambert vowed to drag the mages back to the circles, he didn't declare war nor did he threaten to kill themages. It's more akin to the police trying to round up escaped prisoners and take them back to jail. If the prisoners resist the arrest then yes, they are the aggressors.

 

 

Lambert and his forces seperated from the chantry only after Justinia gave him no choice. She had deliberately tried to prevent him from doing his job, then sent her agents to kill his men and help the mages escape. She betrayed him, he didn't owe her any loyalty after that.

Considering Lambert serves at the pleasure of the Divine, it is as much up to Justinia what his duty is as it is up to Lambert.  Your argument is like saying the Commander of the Joint Chiefs of Staff would be validated for taking the U.S. Army rogue because the President wouldn't let him invade Mexico because he thought it was a threat.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

They will be if they are given martial training. A lone Seeker confronting a suspect Templar wouldn't be a very common situation anyway. Most likely the Seeker would simply order the Templar's peers (or any accompanying Seekers) to take them into custody.

Ordering a rogue Templar's peers to imprison him might not end well. Probably they'd do the "multiple Seekers" thing.

[wcholcombe]

The Templar Order did not dissolve with its leaving of the Chantry, it still has its Mandate and duty.

 

Just because the Divine wants to play favorites with mages, doesn't make the Templar Order's mission not legitimate.

 

So, no it isn't invalidated.

Actually the Templar order was created when the Inquisition was absorbed into the Chantry. They get their mission from the Chantry and their Authority and thier duty is to the Divine.

 

Also, reforming an institution isn't playing favorites.

 

Finally, Lambert's duty as seeker is to oversee and investigate templars, not pursue mages.  Furthermore, I am still waiting for hiim to do anything regarding the assassination attempt that brought him to the White Spire in the first place.

[wcholcombe]

Ordering a rogue Templar's peers to imprison him might not end well. Probably they'd do the "multiple Seekers" thing.

There is also that whole point about Templars despising Seekers, so yeah, if I was a seeker the last thing I would do is use a templar's friends to arrest him.

[SnakeCode]

Lambert forfeited any legal authority the moment he dissolved the accord; the police comparison is invalidated because the templars rebelled as well.

 

 

Lambert is a Seeker, not a templar; he seemed to have forgotten that, as Asunder addressed.

I would argue that it was Justinia who rebelled. The templars vowed to continue to do what they have always done. If the chief of police ordered everyone to set all criminals free, and make no more arrests, S/HE would be the corrupt one.

 

Lambert was Lord Seeker, and as such had authority over both seekers and the templars, he had the authority to do what he did.

[Milady]

I lean more towards mages... So long as they're not bonkers

[Master Warder Z_]

Actually the Templar order was created when the Inquisition was absorbed into the Chantry. They get their mission from the Chantry and their Authority and thier duty is to the Divine.

 

 

Their duty is to ward the world from magic, and oversee the circles and their operation.

 

Their mission was similar before they became the Templar Order, Beyond that you can argue semantics  if you like but ultimately the Templar and Seeker order both had their mission long before the Chantry aligned with them.

 

 

 

Finally, Lambert's duty as seeker is to oversee and investigate templars, not pursue mages.  Furthermore, I am still waiting for hiim to do anything regarding the assassination attempt that brought him to the White Spire in the first place.

 

We had this conversation before remember?

 

We have no clue what he uncovered if anything, although as i said before given he actually admitted to there being no records of "cole" it appears he did at least buy into Rhy's story enough to check it out a bit.

[Master Warder Z_]

I lean more towards mages... So long as they're not bonkers

 

Good luck finding one then.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Good luck finding one then.

There's Bethany.

[LobselVith8]

I would argue that it was Justinia who rebelled. The templars vowed to continue to do what they have always done. If the chief of police ordered everyone to set all criminals free, and make no more arrests, S/HE would be the corrupt one.

 

Lambert was Lord Seeker, and as such had authority over both seekers and the templars, he had the authority to do what he did.

 

Justinia is the head of the Chantry of Andraste as the Divine; it's a bit reaching for you to say she 'rebelled' when she's legally within her rights to lead the organization on a path she sees fit. Lambert, on the other hand, seemed incapable of doing his duty, since he continually acted as though he was a templar, rather than a Seeker.

 

I'm also pointing out Lambert's forces don't have legal authority because they defected from the Chantry like the mages did, and dissolved the Nevarran Accord in the process; both groups separated, so I don't see how anyone can argue that Lambert has the legal right. Asunder also provides insight into the character's motivation: "Lambert slammed the door shut and allowed himself a smile. He imagined the Divine reading that. Without the templars, the Chantry was toothless - nothing more than a bunch of old women armed only with words. What would she do? Try to convince the people, after ages of teaching them mages were to be feared and contained, that now everything was different?

 

"In three days the templar host would march on Andoral's Reach. With any luck, by the time he returned victorious the Chantry would have come to its senses and chosen a new Divine... one that would be eager to reach a new Accord with the seekers, placing the power much more firmly where it belonged."

[Master Warder Z_]

There's Bethany.

 

Does she count?

[Master Warder Z_]

"In three days the templar host would march on Andoral's Reach. With any luck, by the time he returned victorious the Chantry would have come to its senses and chosen a new Divine... one that would be eager to reach a new Accord with the seekers, placing the power much more firmly where it belonged."

 

He isn't wrong.

[The Baconer]

Ordering a rogue Templar's peers to imprison him might not end well.

 

Why would they disobey the order of a commanding officer unless they, too, have faltered in their duties? To do so would only risk a liquidation of a larger-scale. If they seek to incriminate themselves in such a manner, and then are excised, then clearly the system is working as intended.