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[MisterJB]

She went in blaming Hawke for everything based on second-hand information. 

 

EDIT: She is in utter disbelief that Hawke gathered a motley crew for coin on an expedition into the deep roads, and was determined to believe he knew about the idol down there, and outright said that Hawke came to Kirkwall with the purpose of spreading subversion against the Chantry. 

 

She was acting on second-hand information, and had the Seekers been there, they would've known the story. And if they knew it and Cassandra didn't, then she was kept out of the loop for reasons unknown, and so too was the Divine.

 

So it's either she and Justinia V were kept out of the loop and had to do their own investigation starting off with second hand information, or she started from scratch and the Seekers didn't know what was going on. The first reeks of corruption, and the second reeks of incompetence. 

 

EDIT AGAIN: So, she knew about the idol even before we find it in the Deep Roads because she outright tells Varric that Hawke had to know what they would find down there. 

So...what exactly do you propose Cass should have done?

Even if they were monitoring the Circle for unrest from before Hawke arrived; and there wasn't really a need for it back then; she would still be unable to learn Hawke's intentions without interrogating one of the crew which is precisely what she does at DA2.

At most, she would have been able to gather what Hawle was doing, not why he was doing it.

[ICevoL]

No, I mean since Templar talents nullify magic... a mage Seeker isn't going to be very useful if one of them resists arrest.  xD

 

edit:  *sigh* second typo of "Templar" in as many posts...

 

I know this is from a while ago (man, this thread moves fast), but Templar talents don't prevent spell casting indefinitely -- Silence in DA2 has a 20s duration, and none of the templar talents in DAO even came close to being as effective as Mana Clash (Spirit School spell) for dealing with enemy mages.  I'd think the victor in a mage!seeker vs templar fight would come down to numbers (how many on each side for a "fair fight" would be debatable).

 

Also, mage!Warden, Morrigan, and Wynne did quite well in fights against multiple templars (the possessed ones in Broken Circle).  Same for mage!Hawke, Bethany, Anders, and Merrill in the multiple quests where you fight templars in DA2.  So, I think dismissing the idea of a mage!seeker being effective against templars who resist arrest is a bit of a stretch - just my opinion, though 

[Bayonet Hipshot]

I said earlier in this very thread that the 'if the mages are free, there will another Imperium' argument is a convenient scapegoat. Mages in Tevinter rose up to become Magisters again because that's how society in Tevinter has functioned for thousands of years. Magic is ingrained in the nobility there. It is bred in the bone. 

 

Applying that paranoia to the rest of Thedas is unjustifiable. The dangers of everyday magic itself and it's abuse, blood magic, and demonology is what should be scrutinized. Not mages. 

 

Hence my statements that those who wish to claim themselves as magi protectors and magi regulators should learn to understand magic as it is, not as the way the Chant of Light or Andraste or Koslun tell them.

 

The Chantry strikes to me as the real world equivalent of a group of ignoramus and luddites who wants to police science and technology, not because the understand it, but because nuclear weapons were invented using science and tech. 

 

Also, yes, the whole notion that "If mages were free, there will be another Imperium and another Blight, etc" makes no sense. Other mages in Thedas do not live in a society like Tevinter, other mages in Thedas do not share the values of Tevinter.

 

I have absolutely no problem with anyone who wishes to be police or enforcers or regulators of something provided they understand the nature of what they want to regulate as opposed to just understanding some religious dogma. 

 

[Voragoras]

Templars, although only marginally, and not in their current state. The Circle needs some insane reforms, granted, but I think it's essential to provide a place where mages can gather and learn from older mages, while having some kind of force specially built for fighting them, just in case there is the odd abomination (which there will be, accidentally or not).

 

I don't think a fully pro-mage or a fully pro-Templar stance would work, as the institutions stand now. Just one child abomination could wipe out an entire village of people, if Connor is to go by, and that's only through a Desire Demon, not even a Pride one. You also can't stifle the mages too much, or that would result in another Kirkwallian fiasco, where the mages are so oppressed they figure blood magic is their only way out, even in places where the Fade is stronger. Some combination of the two is required, imo.

[raging_monkey]

Hence my statements that those who wish to claim themselves as magi protectors and magi regulators should learn to understand magic as it is, not as the way the Chant of Light or Andraste or Koslun tell them. The Chantry strikes to me as the real world equivalent of a group of ignoramus and luddites who wants to police science and technology, not because the understand it, but because nuclear weapons were invented using science and tech.  Also, yes, the whole notion that "If mages were free, there will be another Imperium and another Blight, etc" makes no sense. Other mages in Thedas do not live in a society like Tevinter, other mages in Thedas do not share the values of Tevinter. I have absolutely no problem with anyone who wishes to be police or enforcers or regulators of something provided they understand the nature of what they want to regulate as opposed to just understanding some religious dogma.

people feel great about themselves when they have numbers and bull faith behind them to oppress minorities justified or not

[raging_monkey]

Templars, although only marginally, and not in their current state. The Circle needs some insane reforms, granted, but I think it's essential to provice a place where mages can gather and learn from older mages, while having some kind of force specially built for fighting them, just in case there is the odd abomination (which there will be, accidentally or not). I don't think a fully pro-mage or a fully pro-Templar stance would work, as the institutions stand now. Just one child abomination could wipe out an entire village of people, if Connor is to go by, and that's only through a Desire Demon, not even a Pride one. You also can't stifle the mages too much, or that would result in another Kirkwallian fiasco, where the mages are so oppressed they figure blood magic is their only way out, even in places where the Fade is stronger. Some combination of the two is required, imo.

i agree but few actually want that i do. But its very hard to be fair when magi give the templars more ammo

[MisterJB]

Every society that has had free mages has always placed them in the position of rulers. Tevinter, Dalish, Rivain, Chasind. They may not all share Tevinter's ideal but they all granted freedom to their mages and they all ended dominated by them.

This ocurrs because mágic is an advantage against which is extremely hard to compete. This advantage will be used to earn influence and wealth for the mage social class and it will, inevitably, lead to mages controlling society.
To believe otherwise is to be naive.

[dragonflight288]

So...what exactly do you propose Cass should have done?

Even if they were monitoring the Circle for unrest from before Hawke arrived; and there wasn't really a need for it back then; she would still be unable to learn Hawke's intentions without interrogating one of the crew which is precisely what she does at DA2.

At most, she would have been able to gather what Hawle was doing, not why he was doing it.

 

I wasn't proposing anything, I was pointing out that in the case of Kirkwall, a place where the Divine herself calls it a threat as severe as the qunari during act 3, has a strong case of incompetence or corruption on the part of the Seekers. 

 

Incompetence if they didn't go there when apparently "all eyes were on Kirkwall," and relied on second hand information to form their conclusions before going in themselves, as Cassandra had done until roughly Act 2 where she starts liking what she hears about the Champion. 

 

Corruption if they were there and did nothing. Nothing to stop the abuse of power on the part of the templars. Nothing to step in where the templars were failing so miserably they needed a private citizen (pro-templar Hawke) to do their work for them. Investigating Meredith's subordinates as she wouldn't despite the abundance of evidence that things were happening, even if behind her back, the results should've alerted her that it was happening. Take over because of the templars failure to do their duty, and all sorts of stuff. 

 

If the Seekers were there in Act 3, they were doing a shoddy job, which is incompetent, or they liked the templars having almost unilateral power in Kirkwall and did nothing to prevent the abuse of power and Cassandra and the Divine were being kept out of the loop, which is corrupt. 

 

It wouldn't be the first time a group that is supposed to be neutral gained a great deal of political power and the head of that organization is happy with it (The Warden in Awakening being given command of an Arling.)

 

If Leliana is correct in the "Faith" quest about how seriously the Divine was taking the events in Kirkwall, then the Seekers should've come in force, and took over the job Meredith and her lieutenants obviously were failing to do, sorted out both the templars and the mages in the Circle, rather than let things blow up due to inaction on their part. 

 

The Seekers are meant to root out templars not doing their job as well as to root out corruption within the Chantry itself. 

 

I think Cassandra was right to investigate things after the fact. I think she was wrong to go in with preconceived notions based on second-hand information to skew her judement, even though she was at least open minded enough to call Varric on his B.S. and accept that what she went in believing was wrong overall. 

[The Baconer]

So...what exactly do you propose Cass should have done?

 

Question Templars, question mages, question the civs, question Hawke regarding a variety of topics... That no one made any contact with Hawke during Act 3 (beyond Leliana's brief meeting) is alone a very questionable decision.

[dragonflight288]

Every society that has had free mages has always placed them in the position of rulers. Tevinter, Dalish, Rivain, Chasind. They may not all share Tevinter's ideal but they all granted freedom to their mages and they all ended dominated by them.

This ocurrs because mágic is an advantage against which is extremely hard to compete. This advantage will be used to earn influence and wealth for the mage social class and it will, inevitably, lead to mages controlling society.
To believe otherwise is to be naive.

 

We don't have enough information on the Rivaini Seers to say that they dominate their society. We know nothing of the Chasind Shamans, and the Dalish Warden's parents, one of whom was a Keeper, had to go behind the non-mage elders backs to bond because the elders said no. 

 

You can't make the claim that mages dominate these societies when we have one case showing where mages may advise and lead, and are highly respected, but still have to listen to the elders, and the others we simply don't have information. 

 

Broad stroke arguments rarely work, especially when we are discussing societies that we no nothing about save for a few codex entries that has some vague information. 

[raging_monkey]

Thats their culture dangerous or not. If mages are free they equal eventual magocracy is a simplification. Its either lock them up and a rebellion starts and we kill eachother til one gains dominance or give them automony on a deserted island and see what happens. Its not naive to hope for mutual co-existance(i write this calmly,and respectful and seek actual disscussion)

[SgtSteel91]

Every society that has had free mages has always placed them in the position of rulers. Tevinter, Dalish, Rivain, Chasind. They may not all share Tevinter's ideal but they all granted freedom to their mages and they all ended dominated by them.

This ocurrs because mágic is an advantage against which is extremely hard to compete. This advantage will be used to earn influence and wealth for the mage social class and it will, inevitably, lead to mages controlling society.
To believe otherwise is to be naive.

 

But is it that bad for mages to be on top?

 

Of course there's Tevinter but there is the possibility of good mages who actually will use magic to serve humanity and not just themselves.

[Voragoras]

i agree but few actually want that i do. But its very hard to be fair when magi give the templars more ammo

 

I imagine it would be hard, when mages possess power beyond that of any other regular person. Locking them up without access to the outside world just because of how they were born isn't the solution, though - that's just likely to push them into the arms of the demons even more, because hey! How can life get any worse for them? At least the demons would give them a chance for a normal life, or so they'd think.

 

As things are, mages either choose to give up any chance at living a life that's considered a basic human right in most countries, or they choose to live constantly on the run from the law as an apostate, putting their family and loved ones in danger, and still not having a proper life. It's not a practical movement towards a healthy mage mindset, no matter how you look at it.

 

Education is far more conducive to mages existing peacefully than systematically oppressing them is. Bethany is a good example of what I'm talking about - a responsible mage father to teach her the danger of magic, and without stifling her so much so that she felt like she needed to escape. Even then, the treatment of mages still made her pretty unhappy.

[raging_monkey]

But is it that bad for mages to be on top? Of course there's Tevinter but there is the possibility of good mages who actually will use magic to serve humanity and not just themselves.

i doubt anyone see mage holding office as good thing too much fear

[raging_monkey]

I imagine it would be hard, when mages possess power beyond that of any other regular person. Locking them up without access to the outside world just because of how they were born isn't the solution, though - that's just likely to push them into the arms of the demons even more, because hey! How can life get any worse for them? At least the demons would give them a chance for a normal life, or so they'd think. As things are, mages either choose to give up any chance at living a life that's considered a basic human right in most countries, or they choose to live constantly on the run from the law as an apostate, putting their family and loved ones in danger, and still not having a proper life. It's not a practical movement towards a healthy mage mindset, no matter how you look at it. Education is far more conducive to mages existing peacefully than systematically oppressing them is. Bethany is a good example of what I'm talking about - a responsible mage father to teach her the danger of magic, and without stifling her so much so that she felt like she needed to escape. Even then, the treatment of mages still made her pretty unhappy.

tch its getting harder to be a moderate and i agree wholly but education doesnt get rid of intolerance and bigotry. It will always be "they can be abominationsor they will rise to be tevinters" again too much fear that is justifiable or not

[EmperorSahlertz]

 

I wasn't proposing anything, I was pointing out that in the case of Kirkwall, a place where the Divine herself calls it a threat as severe as the qunari during act 3, has a strong case of incompetence or corruption on the part of the Seekers. 

Really? Because the Templars were not showing ANY large scale signs of corruption. And as thus no cause for the Seekers to be present.

 

Incompetence if they didn't go there when apparently "all eyes were on Kirkwall," and relied on second hand information to form their conclusions before going in themselves, as Cassandra had done until roughly Act 2 where she starts liking what she hears about the Champion. 

 

All eyes were on Kirkwall, because of the trouble mages were causing. Not Templars. Mages. Varric and Hawke were not really persons of interest for the Seekers until AFTER the event at the Gallows. Before that Varric was a non-factor and Hawke was simply a nobleman who had helped defend the city from the Qunari. He had no conenctions with the Circle or Chantry to speak of. Thus. no apparent significance for the Seekers.

 

Corruption if they were there and did nothing. Nothing to stop the abuse of power on the part of the templars. Nothing to step in where the templars were failing so miserably they needed a private citizen (pro-templar Hawke) to do their work for them. Investigating Meredith's subordinates as she wouldn't despite the abundance of evidence that things were happening, even if behind her back, the results should've alerted her that it was happening. Take over because of the templars failure to do their duty, and all sorts of stuff. 

It is not the job of the Seekers to root out small time Templar abuses of power. They are there if an entire chapter gets out of hand, not if a lonesome Alrik goes off the deep end.

The Templars weren't "failing miserably". It is a complete strawman to present it that way. They were trying to employ the CHAMPION of Kirkwall, to help them. You know... To add validation to their cause, and to make use of an exceptionally skilled individual who had shown sympathy towards their work previously. It should also be mentioned that the Templars take care of business even if they DON'T employ Hawke (mage sympathizer). So, strawman.

And what "abundance of evidence" are you talking about? We have a grand total of TWO Templars who was certainly abusing their power. Alrik and Keras. One of which had been dead for years by then.

 

If the Seekers were there in Act 3, they were doing a shoddy job, which is incompetent, or they liked the templars having almost unilateral power in Kirkwall and did nothing to prevent the abuse of power and Cassandra and the Divine were being kept out of the loop, which is corrupt. 

Or, and I think this is more likely, they weren't getting the results you would have hoped. The matter of fact however, is that the Templars in Kirkwall appeared to any onlookers to be doing exactly what they should be doing. You would have to dig long and hard to reach any corruption (beyond the usual Lyrium smuggling, which again isn't the Seekers' job).

 

It wouldn't be the first time a group that is supposed to be neutral gained a great deal of political power and the head of that organization is happy with it (The Warden in Awakening being given command of an Arling.)

 

The Templars ALWAYS had a great deal of influence and power in Kirkwall. It is what comes with having the largest army.

 

If Leliana is correct in the "Faith" quest about how seriously the Divine was taking the events in Kirkwall, then the Seekers should've come in force, and took over the job Meredith and her lieutenants obviously were failing to do, sorted out both the templars and the mages in the Circle, rather than let things blow up due to inaction on their part. 

 

Maybe the Seekers were on their way. Maybe they were already there, working in the shadows. There are thousands of variable that we aren't privy. So to preemptively conclude that the Seekers are incompetent, is simply nonsense.

 

The Seekers are meant to root out templars not doing their job as well as to root out corruption within the Chantry itself. 

 

 

The Seekers are meant to make sure the Templars do their jobs, and to hunt down particularly powerful and dangerous mages, abominations and demons. I don't recall reading anywhere that the Seekers have any responsibilities regarding the Chantry itself.

 

 

I think Cassandra was right to investigate things after the fact. I think she was wrong to go in with preconceived notions based on second-hand information to skew her judement, even though she was at least open minded enough to call Varric on his B.S. and accept that what she went in believing was wrong overall. 

 

 

 

 EVERYONE goes in with preconcieved notions. It is literally humanly impossible to be objective. You are asking the impossible of Cassandra.

Cassandra KNEW she didn't have the whole picture. That is the reason she is interrogating Varric to begin with.

[Willowhugger]

The third part of my Mages and Templars post is up now.

Thanks guys.

You managed to inspire it a lot. I hope you'll comment and make suggestions.

Weird thing, I didn't get to cover Lyrium addiction or Tevinter.

Which you think I would.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

But is it that bad for mages to be on top?

 

Of course there's Tevinter but there is the possibility of good mages who actually will use magic to serve humanity and not just themselves.

In this setting, the leadership is going to be corrupt. Even if we manage to create a good government, it's going to backslide after our PC either retires or dies. (If we're both lucky and smart, it will be several generations after.) What we can choose is whether or not the leadership is corrupt now, and whether the eventual corrupt leaders can use blood magic.

[Bayonet Hipshot]

Every society that has had free mages has always placed them in the position of rulers. Tevinter, Dalish, Rivain, Chasind. They may not all share Tevinter's ideal but they all granted freedom to their mages and they all ended dominated by them.

This ocurrs because mágic is an advantage against which is extremely hard to compete. This advantage will be used to earn influence and wealth for the mage social class and it will, inevitably, lead to mages controlling society.
To believe otherwise is to be naive.

 

Out of that four examples, only Tevinter can be objectively said as being bad and evil because mages are placed above the common rabble.

 

This notion that just because mages are in positions power and therefore it is wrong...It is the equivalent of the argument "men are the majority of the ruling class, therefore it is wrong". It is the equivalent of the argument "well capitalists the majority in power, therefore its wrong"

 

For one, this position completely forgets that people can be representative of other people. Mages can represent non mages and vice versa. Men can represent other men and women. 

 

A good leader of is an intelligent and well educated intellect. You seem to completely miss out on the fact that there are very few if not no educated intellectual outside the nobles and mages. Not because of "Rawr, oppression !" but because of a myriad of factors. There is no printing press, there is a lack of societal mechanization to build education centers, there is even a lack of surplus of food & labor in many parts of Thedas, the Dalish are nomads so they cannot settle down and build a civilization so that knowledge filters down to whole of society. 

 

If we placed every group of people in Thedas side by side and viewed them using their merits, the most intelligent and intellectually capable, therefore most suited to rule will be the nobility and the mages. 

 

Mages and nobles are the ones who are the most learned. They spend their time studying, mages even more so because it is mandatory. The magical powers need to be learned and mastered. You must control power, lest you let it control you. If you take Tevinter out of the equation, you will see that mages are in positions of power because there are no nobility among them. These societies are just substituting the nobility class with the magi class / intellectual class as rulers. There is nothing inherently wrong with that idea. 

 

Additionally, you also seem to be forgetting that barring Tevinter, other societies where mages hold power are that way because people respect the mages. Magic is a gift of the Creators to be used. The Keepers and the Firsts are the wisest of the Clan and shall play an important role in its governance. Rivaini Seers understand the reality around them a lot better than others because of their magic. 

 

Again, this all boils down to "Rawr, Tevintah is bayddd ! So everything else magic and mages are bayydd !" It makes no sense. Why don't you actually try to consider the alternative viewpoints instead of just looking at it and go "Powah ! Privileges ! Oppression !"

 

So...what exactly do you propose Cass should have done?

Even if they were monitoring the Circle for unrest from before Hawke arrived; and there wasn't really a need for it back then; she would still be unable to learn Hawke's intentions without interrogating one of the crew which is precisely what she does at DA2.

At most, she would have been able to gather what Hawle was doing, not why he was doing it.

 

 

Cassandra should have investigated and done her research. She is the Seeker of Truth, not the Seeker of Bullshit, not the Seeker of False Informations. 

 

The fact is, she did not conduct a proper investigation. All she did was track down Varric and interrogate him. We do not see her or any of the Seekers doing an examination of evidence at the crime scene (Meredith lyrium statue), we do not see them interviewing the nobles who Hawke should be well known by now because Hawke was a Champion for a while. We do not see them investigating the people in Lowtown, where Hawke started his/her life. We did not see them going to Danarius' estate or to Anders' clinic to do investigation.

 

All we saw was Cassandra bullying Varric into a confession and stabbing her books. That is not how a detective is supposed to work. That is how an idiot who does not know how to investigate things work. 

 

I have not even gone into how the Seekers of Truth, while claiming to root out Templar corruption, did not even once, in the span of the entire DA 2 game, visited the city to inquire and investigate the corruption and shitstorm that was brewing.  

 

So excuse me if I am not impressed by the abilities or rather the lack of abilities demonstrated by Cassandra and the Seekers.  

[Steelcan]

meh these posts are too long to respond to

[The Baconer]

Really? Because the Templars were not showing ANY large scale signs of corruption. And as thus no cause for the Seekers to be present.

 

Sure, other than the multiple conspiracies operating within their ranks. 

 

All eyes were on Kirkwall, because of the trouble mages were causing. Not Templars. Mages. Varric and Hawke were not really persons of interest for the Seekers until AFTER the event at the Gallows. Before that Varric was a non-factor and Hawke was simply a nobleman who had helped defend the city from the Qunari. He had no conenctions with the Circle or Chantry to speak of. Thus. no apparent significance for the Seekers.

 

Even the Templars knew that Hawke had connections to known apostates, one of which was a key operator within the Mage Undergound. Hawke him/herself could even be a ****ing apostate.

 

By Act 3, Hawke has completed a multitude of tasks in service to the Circle/Templars (including possibly being coerced into doing Templar work by Meredith). In addition, their sibling could be a mage within the Circle, or a Templar within the Order. How is that no connection to speak of?

 

 

It is not the job of the Seekers to root out small time Templar abuses of power. They are there if an entire chapter gets out of hand, not if a lonesome Alrik goes off the deep end.

 

Small time? Alrik was operating on his lonesome? Is that what you call the entire unit of dead Templars found in the Chantry in Act 1? Or how about when treasonous Templars in collusion with maleficar are able to kidnap a close friend of the Champion, possibly from the Champion's own Hightown residence? Would it be beneath their notice to try and assess just how the situation is so bad, that Templars are killing each other on routine assignments?

 

Maybe the Seekers were on their way. Maybe they were already there, working in the shadows. There are thousands of variable that we aren't privy. So to preemptively conclude that the Seekers are incompetent, is simply nonsense.

 

How else should one describe their performance after Kirkwall and post-Asunder? Competent? Clearly that would be a bigger joke.

[Steelcan]

Burning Kirkwall to the ground, then getting the Tevinters to sink it still seems like the best option to me

[dragonflight288]

Burning Kirkwall to the ground, then getting the Tevinters to sink it still seems like the best option to me

 

You'd be willing to work with Tevinter mages? 

[raging_monkey]

Burning Kirkwall to the ground, then getting the Tevinters to sink it still seems like the best option to me

i actually agree place was a waste