3241 réponses à ce sujet

[raging_monkey]

It's people like that you'd expect to want mages. People of that sort tend to be pretty result-driven, which leads to them being pretty open-minded about who they employ as long as the employees are worth the money.

having magi as armed forces of the state(fullmetal alchemist) is a boon and and danger to most. When in the heat of combat people panic(leading to possession) or feel euphoria creating possible war crimes

[Willowhugger]

By his own loony fraternity sure.

 

Reread "promises of pride" sometime.

It is kind of hilarious both my Warden and Hawke are lunatic extremists but finds every other person holding his views to be Blood Magic-using Morons.

Mage Warden: MAGES MUST BE FREE!

Guy in the Back: SO WE CAN KILL THE NORMALS!

Guy in the Back 2#: YOU WILL ALL BE SACRIFICES FOR THE BLOOD GOD! IA KHORNE! IA TZEENATCH!

Mage Warden: *facepalm*

[The Baconer]

By his own loony fraternity sure.

 

Those beautiful, ignorant bastards.

 

Real G's know, the Lucrosian's are gonna run this ****.

[Voragoras]

By his own loony fraternity sure.

 

Reread "promises of pride" sometime.

 

That's true, he does seem to be accompanied by nutcases, but the point stands. A lot of mages - like Aneirin, Malcolm Hawke, and even Awakening!Anders - are perfectly reasonable people, just people who are sick of being restrained by an order that recruits people perfectly at ease with committing sexual, mental, and physical abuse. Although most won't go so far as Uldred did, I don't think you can just say Uldred's desire for freedom was purely the result of insanity.

 

I don't mean to say all Templars are like that, though, because they obviously aren't. Again, Alistair is an example, and pre-Uldred, so is Cullen, and Emeric can probably stand on solid moral ground as well. This doesn't really exonerate the others that do enjoy all of the liberties that the Templar power structure provides them with.

[raging_monkey]

That's true, he does seem to be accompanied by nutcases, but the point stands. A lot of mages - like Aneirin, Malcolm Hawke, and even Awakening!Anders - are perfectly reasonable people, just people who are sick of being restrained by an order that recruits people perfectly at ease with committing sexual, mental, and physical abuse. Although most won't go so far as Uldred did, I don't think you can just say Uldred's desire for freedom was purely the result of insanity. I don't mean to say all Templars are like that, though, because they obviously aren't. Again, Alistair is an example, and pre-Uldred, so is Cullen, and Emeric can probably stand on solid moral ground as well. This doesn't really exonerate the others that do enjoy all of the liberties that the Templar power structure provides them with.

aveline's husband wesley too i found him to be quite reasonable with my mage hawke and bethany

[Icy Magebane]

That's true, he does seem to be accompanied by nutcases, but the point stands. A lot of mages - like Aneirin, Malcolm Hawke, and even Awakening!Anders - are perfectly reasonable people, just people who are sick of being restrained by an order that recruits people perfectly at ease with committing sexual, mental, and physical abuse. Although most won't go so far as Uldred did, I don't think you can just say Uldred's desire for freedom was purely the result of insanity.

 

I don't mean to say all Templars are like that, though, because they obviously aren't. Again, Alistair is an example, and pre-Uldred, so is Cullen, and Emeric can probably stand on solid moral ground as well. This doesn't really exonerate the others that do enjoy all of the liberties that the Templar power structure provides them with.

That isn't normal... did you see any of that in Ferelden?  No?  Then why not use that as an example rather than Kirkwall?  This tunnel vision that people have developed is almost disturbing... I realize that Kirkwall was bad, but every piece of literature we have states that it was an abnormally strict Circle and that the Templars had gotten out of control under Meredith's command.  None of that is a reflection on the Order as a whole.  None of those behaviors are sanctioned by the Chantry.

[raging_monkey]

Annulment was legal just no but legal. How about we stop using kirkwall as a example place was the worst and only gives us a reason to rage at each other

[Willowhugger]

The Annulment of Fereldan's Circle is pretty reasonable given it's slowly becoming a literal representation of Hell/Fade on Earth/Thedas.

 

In Meredith's case, the Annulment is illegal because the Grand Cleric is dead and can't give her permission. Also, Meredith is affected by a magical artifact. Also, again, Kirkwall is a pit and really was filled with huge numbers of Blood Mages.

The Rite of Annulment CAN be abused but as I mentioned in my essay, it's easier for the Arl of Denerim to purge an alienage or the Arl of Amanranthine to purge Amaranthine than the Knight Commander to annul a Circle.

[Steelcan]

 

In Meredith's case, the Annulment is illegal because the Grand Cleric is dead and can't give her permission.

Not true, with the death of the Grand Cleric, Meredith is the highest ranking official in the Chantry and can legally call an Annulment, has been confirmed by Gaider

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Not true, with the death of the Grand Cleric, Meredith is the highest ranking official in the Chantry and can legally call an Annulment, has been confirmed by Gaider

He added the caveat that if she hadn't died in it (at least I hope he intentionally confirmed that that killed her), she would have been asked pointed questions about it.

[Steelcan]

He added the caveat that if she hadn't died in it, she would have been asked pointed questions about it.

true, but she was legally allowed to call it

[Willowhugger]

Not true, with the death of the Grand Cleric, Meredith is the highest ranking official in the Chantry and can legally call an Annulment, has been confirmed by Gaider

 

Then let me repoint, it's kind of ironic that Anders blowing up the Chantry wouldn't have worked if Meredith hadn't been Red Lyrium possessed.

Hawke-stabbing might have ended it.

[Icy Magebane]

He added the caveat that if she hadn't died in it (at least I hope he intentionally confirmed that that killed her), she would have been asked pointed questions about it.

Unfortunately, we can't even say for sure if she would have called for the Rite had she not been driven insane by red lyrium... I can see her doing "what's needed" so long as she had legal standing and then fielding questions or taking punishment as it came, but there is no guarantee that a sane Meredith would have targeted the Circle instead of Anders.  This is kind of why I never liked that red lyrium plotline to begin with.  It severely damaged her character (and Bartrand's for that matter).

[Willowhugger]

Unfortunately, we can't even say for sure if she would have called for the Rite had she not been driven insane by red lyrium... I can see her doing "what's needed" so long as she had legal standing and then fielding questions or taking punishment as it came, but there is no guarantee that a sane Meredith would have targeted the Circle instead of Anders.  This is kind of why I never liked that red lyrium plotline to begin with.  It severely damaged her character (and Bartrand's for that matter).

 

Honestly, I felt Meredith seemed entirely too rationale for most of the game.

For a woman with a reputation as a psychotic hardass, she seems entirely reasonable up until the finale.

[dragonflight288]

The Annulment of Fereldan's Circle is pretty reasonable given it's slowly becoming a literal representation of Hell/Fade on Earth/Thedas.

 

In Meredith's case, the Annulment is illegal because the Grand Cleric is dead and can't give her permission. Also, Meredith is affected by a magical artifact. Also, again, Kirkwall is a pit and really was filled with huge numbers of Blood Mages.

The Rite of Annulment CAN be abused but as I mentioned in my essay, it's easier for the Arl of Denerim to purge an alienage or the Arl of Amanranthine to purge Amaranthine than the Knight Commander to annul a Circle.

 

Actually, awhile back Gaider said that under the barebone technicalities, what Meredith did was legal because the Grand Cleric and the Revered Mother were dead, so Meredith temporarily had the authority. 

 

But he also said in the same post that Meredith would've been answering to the Divine for that Exalted March had she lived because the Chantry higher ups would not consider it justifiable since she was basically killing every man, woman and child in the circle for an act none of them had anything to do with, Anders blowing up the Chantry. 

[dragonflight288]

Unfortunately, we can't even say for sure if she would have called for the Rite had she not been driven insane by red lyrium... I can see her doing "what's needed" so long as she had legal standing and then fielding questions or taking punishment as it came, but there is no guarantee that a sane Meredith would have targeted the Circle instead of Anders.  This is kind of why I never liked that red lyrium plotline to begin with.  It severely damaged her character (and Bartrand's for that matter).

 

She was a great antagonist, one driven by paranoia it seemed, until the very last minute reveal of the idol destroying her sanity. Then we as players are forced to question how much of what she said was actually what she believed, because she seemed really, well, not reasonable as it was her way or no way at all, but she seemed to have a clear grasp of what she wanted to achieve. 

 

One of my favorite lines she says is "If you cannot tell me another way, don't brand me a tyrant." I disagreed with constantly in principle, but I respected that she genuinely felt like she was doing the best she could, and even Anders says so. 

 

But even then, is she sane or is it red lyrium?

 

I"m sure they added it because they already were planning on using it in Inquisition, but it's a lousy plot devise that was badly implemented in the rushed third act. 

[raging_monkey]

Actually, awhile back Gaider said that under the barebone technicalities, what Meredith did was legal because the Grand Cleric and the Revered Mother were dead, so Meredith temporarily had the authority.  But he also said in the same post that Meredith would've been answering to the Divine for that Exalted March had she lived because the Chantry higher ups would not consider it justifiable since she was basically killing every man, woman and child in the circle for an act none of them had anything to do with, Anders blowing up the Chantry.

see chantry hates mages but even they dislike complete genocide

[Willowhugger]

She loopholed it in, yeah.

[dragonflight288]

see chantry hates mages but even they dislike complete genocide

 

True. The History of the Circle codex says that the mages staged a peaceful protest, and the Divine tried to order an exalted march on her own cathedral because the mages weren't lighting the candles, but her templars talked her down. 

[Puppy Love]

Mages or Templars?

 

I choose Bananas.

[dragonflight288]

She loopholed it in, yeah.

 

Yeah, but she had been trying to get it for some time. If Kerras lives past Act 1, he'll say that Meredith was appealing to the Divine for authorization to use the right because Elthina denied it. Then Kerras goes on to brag that 'those robes will get what's coming to them.' 

 

She had been trying to annul the circle for awhile.

[Willowhugger]

Yeah, but she had been trying to get it for some time. If Kerras lives past Act 1, he'll say that Meredith was appealing to the Divine for authorization to use the right because Elthina denied it. Then Kerras goes on to brag that 'those robes will get what's coming to them.' 

 

She had been trying to annul the circle for awhile.

 

I actually prefer the game's implication to Gaiders' Word of God that Kirkwall's Circle WAS a heathen-filled cesspit of terrorists and Blood Mages.

It would have made everything impressively Noir.

And Bethany you'd have to wonder about.

Is she just THAT naive?

[raging_monkey]

True. The History of the Circle codex says that the mages staged a peaceful protest, and the Divine tried to order an exalted march on her own cathedral because the mages weren't lighting the candles, but her templars talked her down.

theey even kicked a divine out cause she like burning mages WoT is funny

[Cainhurst Crow]

Honestly, I felt Meredith seemed entirely too rationale for most of the game.
For a woman with a reputation as a psychotic hardass, she seems entirely reasonable up until the finale.

Isn't that kinda the point? Peoples rumors, hearsay, and theories being used to overshadow rational thought?

Sister Petrice and the qunari.
Anders and the chantry.
Fenris and his own past.
Merril and her preventive measures.
The templar recruits and their made up initiation.
Every blood mage thinking they can make another imperium.
Thrask and his trust in the blood mages.

The list goes on and on.