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[raging_monkey]

People in kirkwall were just silly laughably so

[TTTX]

Honestly, I felt Meredith seemed entirely too rationale for most of the game.

For a woman with a reputation as a psychotic hardass, she seems entirely reasonable up until the finale.

It's hard to judge both Meredith and Orsino since we don't get to know them until act 3 we don't get to see them change to the roles they took in act 3.

 

Both seemed reasonable.

[Uccio]

FREEEDOOOOM!!!!!

 

 

Mages obviously.

[I WANT YOU TO FUCK ME JERY]

Probably neither, but mages if push comes to shove. Somewhat half-heartedly. 

 

[Elfquisitor]

The Annulment of Fereldan's Circle is pretty reasonable given it's slowly becoming a literal representation of Hell/Fade on Earth/Thedas.

 

In Meredith's case, the Annulment is illegal because the Grand Cleric is dead and can't give her permission. Also, Meredith is affected by a magical artifact. Also, again, Kirkwall is a pit and really was filled with huge numbers of Blood Mages.

The Rite of Annulment CAN be abused but as I mentioned in my essay, it's easier for the Arl of Denerim to purge an alienage or the Arl of Amanranthine to purge Amaranthine than the Knight Commander to annul a Circle.

Actually it's not illegal. When the Grand Cleric dies, the next in command takes charge. And what was Meredith suppose to do ? I mean a mage rebel just blew up and killed the Grand Cleric.The Annulment was the only reasonble cause of action.

[TTTX]

Actually it's not illegal. When the Grand Cleric dies, the next in command takes charge. And what was Meredith suppose to do ? I mean a mage rebel just blew up and killed the Grand Cleric.The Annulment was the only reasonble cause of action.

Yep, but Meredith would have to answer for it later as it's not justifiable, after all it was a rouge mage who wasn't part of the circle that blew up the Chantry and not the circle.

 

Actually the reasonable thing would be to kill the guy who is standing right over there, who actually caused the explosion to begin with.

[KaiserShep]

I mean a mage rebel just blew up and killed the Grand Cleric.The Annulment was the only reasonble cause of action.

 

By this logic, any apostate that just moves into the city and causes enough trouble would be cause enough to just purge the Circle, despite there being no affiliation between the Circle and that mage. What exactly is the point of the Circle system and differentiating between legal and illegal mages if simply being mages is enough for the Templars to kill them all anyway?

 

In any case, legality is not always relevant. An action being legal doesn't mean the action isn't wrong.

[DKJaigen]

Actually it's not illegal. When the Grand Cleric dies, the next in command takes charge. And what was Meredith suppose to do ? I mean a mage rebel just blew up and killed the Grand Cleric.The Annulment was the only reasonble cause of action.

 

you know this kind of logic makes me weep for humanity as a whole. We punish the ones guilty of the crime. not groups who are associated with it.

[TTTX]

you know this kind of logic makes me weep for humanity as a whole. We punish the ones guilty of the crime. not groups who are associated with it.

David Gaider said the annulment were legal, but it wasn't justifiable, Meredith would have had to answer to the divine if she had survived.

[MisterJB]

Out of that four examples, only Tevinter can be objectively said as being bad and evil because mages are placed above the common rabble.

I never once used the words "bad" or "evil", I opposed it solely on the grounds of mages being being placed above the common people.

 

This notion that just because mages are in positions power and therefore it is wrong...It is the equivalent of the argument "men are the majority of the ruling class, therefore it is wrong". It is the equivalent of the argument "well capitalists the majority in power, therefore its wrong"

 

For one, this position completely forgets that people can be representative of other people. Mages can represent non mages and vice versa. Men can represent other men and women.

No, it is simply an argument that to free mages is to place them in dominant positions within society that will, from thereon, be reliant upon someone being a mage in order to have influence that turning normal people into second class citizens.

During the course of Thedosian history, mages have ALWAYS in every single society they were ever a part of, formed their own class distinct from normal people. Mages and non-mage is a very real division that will always exist and societies always place the ruling class' needs and interests above that of the common man, the same ocurrs with mages. For instance, in Rivain Abominations are seen as natural disasters meaning that this excuses the mages from taking responsability for the destruction they cause.

Meanwhile, in non-mage dominated Thedas, mages are placed far away from normal people and taught that they can control their powers and that they are to blame if their magic harms someone.

Therefore, in mage dominated Rivain, the freedom of mages is placed above the well being of the people while in non-mage dominated Orlais (for instance), the well being of the people is placed above the freedom of mages.

 

And then, of course, there's the simple fact that most societies in Thedas were formed as result of the tyranny of magic and the expressed desire for people to see themselves free from it. Placing mages as its ruling class is the equivalent of the elves gaining a new nation and their leader deciding to marry a human.

 

Therefore, the power in non-mage societies should be in the hands of non-mages. If mages are given freedom, they will take it which is unnaceptable. All other societies in Thedas have shown this.

 

you will see that mages are in positions of power because there are no nobility among them. These societies are just substituting the nobility class with the magi class / intellectual class as rulers.

Incorrect. For one, Rivaini has nobles in the most Andrastean areas.

Now, the reason mages are more learned in Andrastean societies is, ironically, because of institutions like the Circle which pro-mages despise.

In tribal societies like the Dalish or the Chasind, there is absolutely no reason as to why mages should be any more learned or intellectual than anyone else.

They are the ruling class because they used magic to accomplish this and then changed the culture until people could see no other alternatives.

 

Additionally, you also seem to be forgetting that barring Tevinter, other societies where mages hold power are that way because people respect the mages. Magic is a gift of the Creators to be used. The Keepers and the Firsts are the wisest of the Clan and shall play an important role in its governance. Rivaini Seers understand the reality around them a lot better than others because of their magic.

 

Yeah, so please explain how the ability to fling a fireballs makes one more suited for ruling. Beyond, of course, "if you don't want me ruling, I'mm fling a fireball at you."

It certainly didn't help Marethari to know something as simple as "if you've spent seven years next to a large human city, it's time to pack up your **** and leave."

 

Magic is not a means to earn power, it's a mean to enforce power. Very big difference.
 

 

Cassandra should have investigated and done her research. She is the Seeker of Truth, not the Seeker of Bullshit, not the Seeker of False Informations. 

 

The fact is, she did not conduct a proper investigation. All she did was track down Varric and interrogate him. We do not see her or any of the Seekers doing an examination of evidence at the crime scene (Meredith lyrium statue), we do not see them interviewing the nobles who Hawke should be well known by now because Hawke was a Champion for a while. We do not see them investigating the people in Lowtown, where Hawke started his/her life. We did not see them going to Danarius' estate or to Anders' clinic to do investigation.

 

All we saw was Cassandra bullying Varric into a confession and stabbing her books. That is not how a detective is supposed to work. That is how an idiot who does not know how to investigate things work. 

 

I have not even gone into how the Seekers of Truth, while claiming to root out Templar corruption, did not even once, in the span of the entire DA 2 game, visited the city to inquire and investigate the corruption and shitstorm that was brewing.  

 

So excuse me if I am not impressed by the abilities or rather the lack of abilities demonstrated by Cassandra and the Seekers.  

Are you kidding me? So just because we don't see them doing something, that means they didn't do it?

Going in her interrogation with Varric, Cassandra already had intel such as who were Hawke's companions meaning she had other sources. Obviously, she then went to the most knowledgeable source in order to discern truth from lie.

You have yet to explain how this is the incorrect procedure.

 

[Milan92]

I'm suddenly picturing Cassandra with Batman gear, investigating crime scenes.

[TheKomandorShepard]

Are you kidding me? So just because we don't see them doing something, that means they didn't do it?

Going in her interrogation with Varric, Cassandra already had intel such as who were Hawke's companions meaning she had other sources. Obviously, she then went to the most knowledgeable source in order to discern truth from lie.

You have yet to explain how this is the incorrect procedure.

If they did something they did horrible job if they didn't same thing.Pretty much doubt that they did as we saw she in fact had very little informations about hawke pretty much all that could be just varric stories save from event with leliana that she admited so well... she didn't had any idea what was going on in kirkwall pretty much last conversation with varric shows us that.

[EmperorSahlertz]

The Baconer, on 10 Sept 2014 - 04:28 AM, said:

 

Sure, other than the multiple conspiracies operating within their ranks. 

 

 

Multiple? Last I checked one is singular. May just be me..

 

Even the Templars knew that Hawke had connections to known apostates, one of which was a key operator within the Mage Undergound. Hawke him/herself could even be a ****ing apostate.

 

First of all, Hawke is a player character, and as such he gets to break all the rules, for the sake of the game. Had Hawke not been a player character, then the second it was found out he was a mage, he would be thrown in the Circle.

With that being said, Hawke was being surveiled by the Templars. They may not have thrown him in the Circle, but they were keeping an eye on him. They probably felt they had him udner reasonable control.

 

By Act 3, Hawke has completed a multitude of tasks in service to the Circle/Templars (including possibly being coerced into doing Templar work by Meredith). In addition, their sibling could be a mage within the Circle, or a Templar within the Order. How is that no connection to speak of?

 

 

Huh? Before Act III Hawke has almost no interactions with Meredith (and the one that he does have, is completely unrelated to the magical issues of Kirkwall), so I am not entirely sure when she "coerced" him into doing Templar work as you claim.

What Hawke had been doing, was a couple of odd jobs here and there. Usually because Hawke himself ofered to help, with a task the Templars or Mages were already working on themselves.

 

Hundreds of people in Kirkwall and surrounding area has a brother/sister, mother/father or husband/wife in the Circle. If ALL of them had to by a person of interest, then you are just making it even more clear why the Seekers couldn't possibly keep up with the situation. Since they would be stretched thin, just trying to keep up with all these POIs.

 

Small time? Alrik was operating on his lonesome? Is that what you call the entire unit of dead Templars found in the Chantry in Act 1? Or how about when treasonous Templars in collusion with maleficar are able to kidnap a close friend of the Champion, possibly from the Champion's own Hightown residence? Would it be beneath their notice to try and assess just how the situation is so bad, that Templars are killing each other on routine assignments?

 

 

Alrik was using fear and coercion to make his squad of Templars do as he says. And I am going to chalk up the amount to Varric's fancy storytelling. Unless you also want to argue that Templars got anti-gravity devices in their boots allowing them to fall several meters in heavy plate armor, without breaking every bone in their legs?

Seekers are also now to respond to simple kidnappings, and not only that, they are to do so faster than the persons who are actually present? Exactly how should the Seekers have been able to respond to this? The kidnapping was over before it even begun. But I suppsoe Seekers should also have omnipresence now, aswell as teleportation devices?

 

And again, since apparently this is REALLY hard to grasp, we don't know wehter or not there were any Seeker presence in Kirkwall. We don't know wether or not they were already investigating. All we DO know, is that by Act III it was already too late. Sadly it was also only in Act III that the situation even remotely called for a Seeker presence.

 

How else should one describe their performance after Kirkwall and post-Asunder? Competent? Clearly that would be a bigger joke.

 

One could simply admit that they actually know squat about what was going on behind the scenes?

And on a sidenote: In Asunder the Seekers were doing EXACTLY what they were supposed to. Making sure the Circle stay under control. However the Divine herself saw it fit to betray and murder her own subjects, undermining their efforts.

[Br3admax]

> Tower full of blood mages, including the first enchanter.
> Said first enchanter is blocking all investigations in the Tower
> Not justified.

[TheKomandorShepard]

> Tower full of blood mages, including the first enchanter.
> Said first enchanter is blocking all investigations in the Tower
> Not justified.

Well... but bethany!

 

As i said many times RoA was in place meredith just called it for wrong reasons.

 

Also i never renember DG saying that it was unjustified only that it wasn't breaking law.

[bazzag]

If i can, i would like to bring back the circle but make it less of a prison. Kind of a middle ground between the chantry circles and the tevinter circles. But if i have to pick liberty or death, then i'd choose liberty of the mages. Especially after reading Asunder. Unless of course, theyve changed into a rabble of demon infused maleficar.

[EmperorSahlertz]

> Tower full of blood mages, including the first enchanter.
> Said first enchanter is blocking all investigations in the Tower
> Not justified.

It is justifiable. It is just the reason that she did use to justify it, is bullocks.

[Voragoras]

That isn't normal... did you see any of that in Ferelden?  No?  Then why not use that as an example rather than Kirkwall?  This tunnel vision that people have developed is almost disturbing... I realize that Kirkwall was bad, but every piece of literature we have states that it was an abnormally strict Circle and that the Templars had gotten out of control under Meredith's command.  None of that is a reflection on the Order as a whole.  None of those behaviors are sanctioned by the Chantry.

 

I didn't say it was normal, I said that it was allowed. There was a Grand Cleric in Kirkwall, too, and she didn't seem like she was too disapproving of it, and she certainly didn't take any action to change it. What power checks are there for situations like this? What is there to stop individual Templars abusing their authority?

 

You do have a point in that the sheer number of abuses and their severity is abnormal, though. I wasn't trying to imply that Kirkwall was a regular thing.

[Br3admax]

It is justifiable. It is just the reason that she did use to justify it, is bullocks.

Not really. The Grand Cleric was stopping her before. Everyone ignored the problem.

[Br3admax]

Delete

[TheKomandorShepard]

Not really. The Grand Cleric was stopping her before. Everyone ignored the problem.

Grand cleric was dumb and naive as hell she didn't do anything when situation required action.

[EmperorSahlertz]

Not really. The Grand Cleric was stopping her before. Everyone ignored the problem.

She reason she used to justify the Annulment was Anders' bombing of the Chantry. That is an unreasonable justification. That does not mean that there were other reasons to Annul the Gallows, it just means that Meredith would come under scrutiny for the justification she used.

[Br3admax]

She reason she used to justify the Annulment was Anders' bombing of the Chantry. That is an unreasonable justification. That does not mean that there were other reasons to Annul the Gallows, it just means that Meredith would come under scrutiny for the justification she used.

She would still say blood magic was to blame. You're assuming Andres was her justification.

[EmperorSahlertz]

She would still say blood magic was to blame. You're assuming Andres was her justification.

It WAS her justification. We were there, we were present when she called for the Annulment. And that justification alone is not enough, hence why she would be called to Val Royaux, to defend her actions. That doesn't mean she couldn't. The Gallows was after all a den of blood mages, so there is justification for an annulment.

[Mistic]

She would still say blood magic was to blame. You're assuming Andres was her justification.

 

Meredith: "The grand cleric has been slain by magic, the chantry destroyed. As Knight Commander of Kirkwall, I hereby invoke the Right of Annulment. Every mage in the Circle is to be executed immediately."