Well... not really. Let's not forget that DA2's famous framed narrative was based on an official Seeker investigation. In the end, no matter what route is chosen, Meredith is condemned for her actions and her killer is being looked for help. That's the canon ending every time. "What if" is just speculation.
That's because Meredith didn't live. If she had, a different tale would be told to the Divine. Like the one Cass came in believing.
Multiple? Last I checked one is singular. May just be me..
Alrik, Thrask, a former Templar aiding apostate mages in escaping the Circle...
With that being said, Hawke was being surveiled by the Templars. They may not have thrown him in the Circle, but they were keeping an eye on him. They probably felt they had him udner reasonable control.
Hawke might be reasonably under control. His compatriots? No.
Huh? Before Act III Hawke has almost no interactions with Meredith (and the one that he does have, is completely unrelated to the magical issues of Kirkwall), so I am not entirely sure when she "coerced" him into doing Templar work as you claim.
What Hawke had been doing, was a couple of odd jobs here and there. Usually because Hawke himself ofered to help, with a task the Templars or Mages were already working on themselves.
Act 3, On The Loose. If Hawke initially refuses to do the work, Meredith will threaten him/her either using his status as a mage, or Bethany's presence in the Circle. By Act 3 Hawke has quite a connection with the Circle, and could be a potentially useful source of information regarding it.
Alrik was using fear and coercion to make his squad of Templars do as he says. And I am going to chalk up the amount to Varric's fancy storytelling. Unless you also want to argue that Templars got anti-gravity devices in their boots allowing them to fall several meters in heavy plate armor, without breaking every bone in their legs?
The point is that a number of them are found dead with no explanation aside from Alrik's probable cover-up, and then later, another number are found dead under mysterious circumstances, this time with Alrik to be found among them.
Seekers are also now to respond to simple kidnappings, and not only that, they are to do so faster than the persons who are actually present?
Um, no, I never said anything of the sort, actually. It was brought up to illustrate that the corruption the Gallows is experiencing is not "small-time".
One could simply admit that they actually know squat about what was going on behind the scenes?
Not a great track record when the Seekers consistently don't know anything of use.
And on a sidenote: In Asunder the Seekers were doing EXACTLY what they were supposed to. Making sure the Circle stay under control. However the Divine herself saw it fit to betray and murder her own subjects, undermining their efforts.
Post-Asunder, which is what I said in my post, the Seekers have struck out with the Templars in an attempt to quell the mage rebellion themselves. Given their previous performance, I'm sure nobody is surprised that their effort has turned into a colossal ****-up by the time DA:I rolls around.
Yeah... the Seekers were pretty poorly implemented in DA2. If they are supposed to be a group dedicated to overseeing and investigating the Templars, most of what went down in Kirkwall shouldn't have happened in the first place. There were no Seekers present in the city throughout the game, and the only one that appeared showed up in a DLC mission, said a few lines, and left abruptly. Their presentation in the game simply does not match their description in the lore, unless they are just so busy and spread out that they can only deal with the really major disruptions like the Kirwkwall rebellion. It's strange that they could be so inept and passive considering their supposed duties... I don't really know how to interpret that.
That's because Meredith didn't live. If she had, a different tale would be told to the Divine. Like the one Cass came in believing.
But that's exactly the situation why the Seekers of Truth were created in the first place. And no speculation here: Cassandra came believing a conspiracy tale but she did her Seeker job. That's what happened in game.
Of course, then Lambert happened. So maybe Meredith would have joined their side and the situation would be exactly like now. But a situation like now still means no medal for her actions, no Divine saying "good job" or "you did the right thing". That was what was being discussed in the first place.
Actually it's not illegal. When the Grand Cleric dies, the next in command takes charge. And what was Meredith suppose to do ? I mean a mage rebel just blew up and killed the Grand Cleric.The Annulment was the only reasonble cause of action.
No it wasn't, because the Circle wasn't even involved.
What Meredith was supposed to do is this.
1. Lock down the Gallows in the event that the mob she spoke of did form, and protect the mages.
2. Hold a public trial and execution of Anders, making it clear that he is responsible for the deed, and he alone.
3. Use her new authority until a new Grand Cleric is chosen to search the Gallows for all evidence that she needs of blood mages, copy cats, and the like, and then punish the guilty only.
Her mandate as a templar is to protect mages from the world as well as the world from mages. Don't push for genocide on an entire group for the actions of someone unaffiliated with them.
The Baconer, on 10 Sept 2014 - 4:34 PM, said:
Alrik, Thrask, a former Templar aiding apostate mages in escaping the Circle...
Thrask was the only one with any actual conspiracy against the Templar, and Samson was a part of that conspiracy. Alrik was breaking the law, but wasn't conspiring against the Templars. Only what Thrask did, could reasonably be cause for the Seekers to take any serious note. However that entire situation was dealt with before the Seekers could involve themselves.
Hawke might be reasonably under control. His compatriots? No.
Of which only two are mages. Of which only one is under surveilance. It is ambigious wether or not the Templars had any knowledge about Merrill. Isabela, Varric, Fenris, Sebastian and Aveline are all unimportant to the Templars. Much less so to the Seekers.
Act 3, On The Loose. If Hawke initially refuses to do the work, Meredith will threaten him/her either using his status as a mage, or Bethany's presence in the Circle. By Act 3 Hawke has quite a connection with the Circle, and could be a potentially useful source of information regarding it.
So... Before Act III Hawke has, as I said, done NOTHING to be really noted as a person of interest for either the Templars or the Seekers.... And, as I also said, in Act III it all unravels so fast that if the Seekers were present, they wouldn't have had time to intervene.
The point is that a number of them are found dead with no explanation aside from Alrik's probable cover-up, and then later, another number are found dead under mysterious circumstances, this time with Alrik to be found among them.
Uhm.. I think they know perfectly well that an Apostate killed the Templars in the Chantry... After all they READ Karl's letters and knew he was meeting with an Apostate there..
Once Alrik turns up dead, I think the Templars (who largely disliked Alrik) were willing to let it go as an unsolved crime, and that Alrik had simply met his end at the hands of an escapee mage.
Um, no, I never said anything of the sort, actually. It was brought up to illustrate that the corruption the Gallows is experiencing is not "small-time".
And I've pointed out several times by now, that it was indeed small-time. What Alrik did was not something of concern to the Seekers, UNLESS it was known to Meredith what Alrik did, and she still did nothing. In that case the Seekers would take action.
Not a great track record when the Seekers consistently don't know anything of use.
Oh? Now you arrogantly presume to know what the Seekers know and didn't know? So not only do you have complete insight to their operational tactics and priorities, you also have complete insight into the database?
Post-Asunder, which is what I said in my post, the Seekers have struck out with the Templars in an attempt to quell the mage rebellion themselves. Given their previous performance, I'm sure nobody is surprised that their effort has turned into a colossal ****-up by the time DA:I rolls around.
Yeah.... They must have done such a terrible job, considering that the mages are willing to negotiate now... In reality it seems the Templars and Seekers have fought the mages to a point where both parties are willing to negotiate, which means that both sides have been doing good job fighting eachother.
No it wasn't, because the Circle wasn't even involved.
What Meredith was supposed to do is this.
1. Lock down the Gallows in the event that the mob she spoke of did form, and protect the mages.
2. Hold a public trial and execution of Anders, making it clear that he is responsible for the deed, and he alone.
3. Use her new authority until a new Grand Cleric is chosen to search the Gallows for all evidence that she needs of blood mages, copy cats, and the like, and then punish the guilty only.
Her mandate as a templar is to protect mages from the world as well as the world from mages. Don't push for genocide on an entire group for the actions of someone unaffiliated with them.
Once she established that there were blood mages within the Circle, including the First Enchanter of all people, Meredith would be fully authorized to invoke the Rite of Annulment. That is simply more evidence on top of the numerous escapes and escape attempts over the years. Some of the escaped apostates were powerful blood mages, after all, including Huon, who was found only a few days after his escape. He would have had to learn a heck of a lot in a couple days to get that strong, so it is reasonable to believe that he learned blood magic before his escape.
Since every Circle mage is responsible for reporting blood magic and other crimes, it is safe to assume that even the ones who were not actual blood mages knew about it and withheld evidence. The Circle was corrupted whether Meredith had evidence to back up her suspicions or not... since her instincts about the place were correct, I have a hard time holding a few procedural technicalities against her.
Yeah.... They must have done such a terrible job, considering that the mages are willing to negotiate now... In reality it seems the Templars and Seekers have fought the mages to a point where both parties are willing to negotiate, which means that both sides have been doing good job fighting eachother.
Yeah the war must be terrible for both sides and the ones caught in the crossfire.
Once she established that there were blood mages within the Circle, including the First Enchanter of all people, Meredith would be fully authorized to invoke the Rite of Annulment. That is simply more evidence on top of the numerous escapes and escape attempts over the years. Some of the escaped apostates were powerful blood mages, after all, including Huon, who was found only a few days after his escape. He would have had to learn a heck of a lot in a couple days to get that strong, so it is reasonable to believe that he learned blood magic before his escape.
Since every Circle mage is responsible for reporting blood magic and other crimes, it is safe to assume that even the ones who were not actual blood mages knew about it and withheld evidence. The Circle was corrupted whether Meredith had evidence to back up her suspicions or not... since her instincts about the place were correct, I have a hard time holding a few procedural technicalities regarding against her.
I actually wonder how many blood mages there actually was in the Kirkwall Circle, we only fought few compared to the Circles overall size.
Yeah the war must be terrible for both sides and the ones caught in the crossfire.
The safest place to be in war time, is in the army... Ironic as that may be..
The war between Mages and Templars may have been tough on both sides, but it is really the poor civilian who pays the price.
If Meredith were still alive, Varric wouldn't be that to tell that story. No one would be.But that's exactly the situation why the Seekers of Truth were created in the first place. And no speculation here: Cassandra came believing a conspiracy tale but she did her Seeker job. That's what happened in game.
Of course, then Lambert happened. So maybe Meredith would have joined their side and the situation would be exactly like now. But a situation like now still means no medal for her actions, no Divine saying "good job" or "you did the right thing". That was what was being discussed in the first place.
The safest place to be in war time, is in the army... Ironic as that may be..
The war between Mages and Templars may have been tough on both sides, but it is really the poor civilian who pays the price.
Pretty much, although you chances are not very high when you are on the front line.
Yeah, that's I meant when I said the other side, that everyone else who are not involved in the war.
I actually wonder how many blood mages there actually was in the Kirkwall Circle, we only fought few compared to the Circles overall size.
What about Grace and Alain? Decimus probably taught Grace and she wisely concealed it when we first met her, but Alain seemed appalled by blood magic when we first met him... yet years later, he uses a seemingly complex blood magic spell right in front of Hawke (Best Served Cold). How many examples do we need?
There is also this: http://dragonage.wik...i/Bounty_Hunter
A Chanters' Board quest to help the Templars round up some escaped apostates... I think there may have been 1 or 2 blood mages among these three, but I can't recall exactly. If not, one of them definitely knows about summoning demons, and they are all escapees. The actions of these criminals add to the pattern of disobedience we see in the Kirkwall Circle, even if not to the same degree as if they had been actual blood mages. The summon of demons is, however, on par with blood magic as both are punishable by death.
What about Grace and Alain? Decimus probably taught Grace and she wisely concealed it when we first met her, but Alain seemed appalled by blood magic when we first met him... yet years later, he uses a seemingly complex blood magic spell right in front of Hawke (Best Served Cold). How many examples do we need?
Seemingly complex? Where do you get that? It sure didn't seem complex to me it didn't require any words, preparation time or hand movement. It may very well have been the blood magic equivalent of untying a knot and just relied on other people not being about to touch the knot. Both mages were traveling with Decimus who taught blood magic and Orsino apparently says he's never used blood magic before.
Blood magic apparently gives a lot of kick even with very little skill, training or ability. Just think of Jowan and how he's considered a rather poor mage. Yet he was able to floor a Knight commander and a group of templars with a panicked out burst of blood magic.
What about Grace and Alain? Decimus probably taught Grace and she wisely concealed it when we first met her, but Alain seemed appalled by blood magic when we first met him... yet years later, he uses a seemingly complex blood magic spell right in front of Hawke (Best Served Cold). How many examples do we need?
I was thinking about the exact number of people who uses Blood magic in the Kirwall Circle, i mean the circle had to have at least a couple of hundred mages and we fought what? a dozen or so that actually came from the circle that we know off.
As for Alain I doubt the blood magic spell was complex, all he had to do was waking someone up.
Seemingly complex? Where do you get that? It sure didn't seem complex to me it didn't require any words, preparation time or hand movement. It may very well have been the blood magic equivalent of untying a knot and just relied on other people not being about to touch the knot. Both mages were traveling with Decimus who taught blood magic and Orsino apparently says he's never used blood magic before.
Blood magic apparently gives a lot of kick even with very little skill, training or ability. Just think of Jowan and how he's considered a rather poor mage. Yet he was able to floor a Knight commander and a group of templars with a panicked out burst of blood magic.
*shugs* It seemed complex to me. I didn't say it was complex. How am I supposed to know which blood magic spells can be learned in hours and which take years of study? All I know is that he was a blood mage in Act 3, but in Act 1 he was appalled by the very notion. Something changed, and not for the better.
That's because blood magic can't be resisted, not because of its greater power.Seemingly complex? Where do you get that? It sure didn't seem complex to me it didn't require any words, preparation time or hand movement. It may very well have been the blood magic equivalent of untying a knot and just relied on other people not being about to touch the knot. Both mages were traveling with Decimus who taught blood magic and Orsino apparently says he's never used blood magic before.
Blood magic apparently gives a lot of kick even with very little skill, training or ability. Just think of Jowan and how he's considered a rather poor mage. Yet he was able to floor a Knight commander and a group of templars with a panicked out burst of blood magic.
I was thinking about the exact number of people who uses Blood magic in the Kirwall Circle, i mean the circle had to have at least a couple of hundred mages and we fought what? a dozen or so that actually came from the circle that we know off.
As for Alain I doubt the blood magic spell was complex, all he had to do was waking someone up.
I don't have the stats on me, but there were only a few hundred total mages at Andorals reach at the end of Asunder when they voted for independence. Yes there were no mages from Kirkwall or Daismud and of course some didn't go to AR, but still I doubt there were 100 mages in any one circle let alone a couple of hundred in Kirkwall. We probably actually saw a good number of the circle mages in kirkwall in the actual battle.
*shugs* It seemed complex to me. I didn't say it was complex. How am I supposed to know which blood magic spells can be learned in hours and which take years of study? All I know is that he was a blood mage in Act 3, but in Act 1 he was appalled by the very notion. Something changed, and not for the better.
Either that or he was a bloodmage all along and the appalled reaction was a cover.
While I hate to get into the muck of DA2 again, there were obviously blood mages in the circle in Kirkwall. Meredith was correct in that and Orsino was covering for them-he was a blood mage himself- which only made things worse.
*shugs* It seemed complex to me. I didn't say it was complex. How am I supposed to know which blood magic spells can be learned in hours and which take years of study? All I know is that he was a blood mage in Act 3, but in Act 1 he was appalled by the very notion. Something changed, and not for the better.
What evidence do you use to support the notion that he learned blood magic between act 1 and 3 rather then when he was with Decimus? It was after he saw the undead being raised that he decided what they were doing was wrong. He could have been taught the fundamentals by Decimus. After all Grace had already been taught blood magic by the time we find her in act 1.
It's quite possible that it was only when Decimus gave a more direct demonstration of what blood magic can do, animate the dead, that he decided this was wrong. Though personally I see nothing wrong with using undead.
3. Use her new authority until a new Grand Cleric is chosen to search the Gallows for all evidence that she needs of blood mages, copy cats, and the like, and then punish the guilty only.
The problem being that there is no 'punish the guilty only' when there's no reliable way to tell who is and isn't guilty. The Right of Annulment is a last resort when a Circle can no longer be deemed savable. Which is a fairly subjective determination. I suspect, because of the history of the Kirkwall Circle (and the Starkhaven Circle it absorbed) and the actions of Orsino, once Meredith was called to justify her actions, she'd have been exonerated.
Regardless of the excuse she used to get things started, the presence of Blood Mages, Abominations, and Orsino going full moron would have provided all the justification she needed after the fact. She might not have been given a medal, but Orsino all but guaranteed she'd have been untouchable.
I don't have the stats on me, but there were only a few hundred total mages at Andorals reach at the end of Asunder when they voted for independence. Yes there were no mages from Kirkwall or Daismud and of course some didn't go to AR, but still I doubt there were 100 mages in any one circle let alone a couple of hundred in Kirkwall. We probably actually saw a good number of the circle mages in kirkwall in the actual battle.
That's probably the problem with circles we never get the exact number of people inside we can only guess.
One thing is for sure there are children in the circle when they were annulment was announced they need to die too.
What evidence do you use to support the notion that he learned blood magic between act 1 and 3 rather then when he was with Decimus? It was after he saw the undead being raised that he decided what they were doing was wrong. He could have been taught the fundamentals by Decimus. After all Grace had already been taught blood magic by the time we find her in act 1.
It's quite possible that it was only when Decimus gave a more direct demonstration of what blood magic can do, animate the dead, that he decided this was wrong. Though personally I see nothing wrong with using undead.
I don't need to establish when he learned blood magic or how much blood magic he knew... my point is that blood mages were in the Cirlce and that he was one of them. Not only that, even the overwhelmingly strict nature of the Kirkwall Circle wasn't enough to keep apostates from pouring out like a bucket of water with a hole in the bottom. There was even a large "Underground Railroad" that Anders, and potentially Hawke, worked with... the Circle was corrupted from top to bottom. We have numerous examples of apostates who left the Circle being positively identified as blood mages or demonologists mere days after their escape. Believe what you will about the complexity of magic, but power on the level of Huon and Jake the Black takes time to develop. Even Orsino was a blood mage and had access to knowledge about what was obviously an advanced blood magic ritual. Again I ask, how much evidence do you need?
That's probably the problem with circles we never get the exact number of people inside we can only guess.
One thing is for sure there are children in the circle when they were annulment was announced they need to die too.
true but we do know that the total mages that rebelled was only a couple of hundred, and that is from all the circles outside of tevinter.
The problem being that there is no 'punish the guilty only' when there's no reliable way to tell who is and isn't guilty. The Right of Annulment is a last resort when a Circle can no longer be deemed savable. Which is a fairly subjective determination. I suspect, because of the history of the Kirkwall Circle (and the Starkhaven Circle it absorbed) and the actions of Orsino, once Meredith was called to justify her actions, she'd have been exonerated.
Regardless of the excuse she used to get things started, the presence of Blood Mages, Abominations, and Orsino going full moron would have provided all the justification she needed after the fact. She might not have been given a medal, but Orsino all but guaranteed she'd have been untouchable.
With that red lyrium idol messing with her mind, I doubt it.
She was already losing her mind by time act 3 starts even a person mentioned she was talking to someone when she was alone in her room.
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