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Mages or Templars?


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#1401
EmperorSahlertz

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But the school of spirit codex specifically says they cover "summoning spirits" as part of their school. They may not be summoning a spirit to animate the dead to fight for them, but summoning spirits is still part of the school.

 

I mean, in the quest Summoning Science, we are literally summoning Fade spirits. One dies immediately, one goes on to hunt caravans, and the other is a bear that attacks you. Yet these are commonly accepted practices in the Ferelden Circle.

Summoning spirits aren't inherently bad either. The Templars do have a healthy distrust of the school though, because they, aswell as the mages, realize the threat all spirits pose. It should also be noted that in the quest you mention, you do not summon the spirit into a host, living or dead, and is probably one of the reasons it is acceptable. Undead is not generally looked favorably upon anywhere in Thedas.



#1402
dragonflight288

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"The caster summons a skeleton minion from the corpse of a fallen enemy to fight alongside the party for a short time, although, as a puppet of the caster, it will not use any talents or spells without specific instruction." This is the description of the spell. No mention of a spirit, but rather the explanation that it is a puppet of the caster.

There also was some discussion about this spell on the old forum, but i honestly can't be bothered with digging through that cesspit.

 

Neither can I to be honest. 



#1403
Lulupab

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If we are going to discuss DA2 and Kirkwall, I would like to interject for those who haven't read ME, that the marches are seen to have much stricter and harsher treatment of mages then anywhere else in Thedas. Even the Orlesians find them to be harsh.


The marches has become a dump since Nevrra left. Starkhaven circle was "mysteriously" burnt to the ground and everyone died inside except a few survivors. We know how Kirkwall is like and pretty much the other cities are insignificant. Its the worse place in Thedas by definition and the weakest too, for the moment.

#1404
Icy Magebane

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The marches has become a dump since Nevrra left. Starkhaven circle was "mysteriously" burnt to the ground and everyone died inside except a few survivors. We know how Kirkwall is like and pretty much the other cities are insignificant. Its the worse place in Thedas by definition and the weakest too, for the moment.

Yeah, and even Decimus's own follower Alain suspected that he set the fire in the Starkhaven Circle as part of an escape attempt... That was a very murky situation.  I wonder if we'll ever know for sure what happened there?



#1405
EmperorSahlertz

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Yeah, and even Decimus's own follower Alain suspected that he set the fire in the Starkhaven Circle as part of an escape attempt... That was a very murky situation.  I wonder if we'll ever know for sure what happened there?

I think we already do know for sure what happened there. Decimus set the fire.



#1406
dragonflight288

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Summoning spirits aren't inherently bad either. The Templars do have a healthy distrust of the school though, because they, aswell as the mages, realize the threat all spirits pose. It should also be noted that in the quest you mention, you do not summon the spirit into a host, living or dead, and is probably one of the reasons it is acceptable. Undead is not generally looked favorably upon anywhere in Thedas.

 

Spirits and demons are essentially the same thing, and even though we don't summon them and place them in a physical host, one of the spirits we summon goes on to kill merchant caravans and refugees despite not having a body. 

 

I'm not saying summoning spirits is necessarily a bad thing, we summoned the spirits when the Circle was a mess and all the safeguards weren't up, but I am pointing out that summoning spirits is not really blood magic. Summoning spirits and raising the dead to fight your enemies can just as easily fall under the school of spirit, and be powered or amplified by blood magic. 



#1407
wcholcombe

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Asudner specifically mentions thousands of mages rally at adnoral's reach, and possibly more are on the way.

Umm what copy of Asunder were you reading?

 

On page 405 Rhys says there were hundreds-meaning less then a 1000, probably quite a bit less then 1000, certainly not 1000s. On page 400 right before the conclave he says the ruin was now bursting with over 100 mages, he says there were hundreds of mages to man the battlements on 401,

 

They also make it clear that they can't depend on anyone else to show up so that is why they went ahead and voted when they did.



#1408
dragonflight288

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I think we already do know for sure what happened there. Decimus set the fire.

 

That is a theory Alain says. It may very well be possible that the fire was an accident and Decimus took the opportunity to escape since the phylacteries was destroyed, and Alain ponders it because he's ready to blame Decimus for things going wrong because Decimus is using blood magic. 

 

That is a possibility. 



#1409
EmperorSahlertz

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Spirits and demons are essentially the same thing, and even though we don't summon them and place them in a physical host, one of the spirits we summon goes on to kill merchant caravans and refugees despite not having a body. 

 

I'm not saying summoning spirits is necessarily a bad thing, we summoned the spirits when the Circle was a mess and all the safeguards weren't up, but I am pointing out that summoning spirits is not really blood magic. Summoning spirits and raising the dead to fight your enemies can just as easily fall under the school of spirit, and be powered or amplified by blood magic. 

Summonig spirits aren't. What Decimus did is (as is also evidenced by all the blood that starts swirling around him). Also the summoning and controling of spirits and demons is demonology which is, if not blood magic, considered maleficarum arts.



#1410
Icy Magebane

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I think we already do know for sure what happened there. Decimus set the fire.

In the interest of fairness, I thought I'd mention the most widely accepted theory as presented by an in-game character.   The way the post was written seemed to imply that there was something else behind the fire... perhaps in order to draw suspicion away from the mages living there?  Since that is a pretty common tactic when the criminal behavior of apostates is being discussed, I thought it best that I present an alternative, less "mysterious" theory that actually comes from the game and not my imagination.


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#1411
TTTX

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I think we already do know for sure what happened there. Decimus set the fire.

Decimus was crazy.

 

What is it with the free marches and crazy?



#1412
TTTX

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In the interest of fairness, I thought I'd mention the most widely accepted theory as presented by an in-game character.   The way the post was written seemed to imply that there was something else behind the fire... perhaps in order to draw suspicion away from the mages living there?  Since that is a pretty common tactic when the criminal behavior of apostates is being discussed, I thought it best that I present an alternative, less "mysterious" theory that actually comes from the game and not my imagination.

I personally wouldn't be surprised it was all a part of the Elder Ones plan.



#1413
EmperorSahlertz

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Decimus was crazy.

 

What is it with the free marches and crazy?

Well... They had both Corypheus AND the Hellmouth of Kirkwall. That can't have been a positive influence on the area.



#1414
Icy Magebane

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Decimus was crazy.

 

What is it with the free marches and crazy?

He really wasn't though... craziness should not be used as excuse for immoral behavior.  His plans and motivations were rational.  He knew what he was doing the whole time...



#1415
raging_monkey

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Decimus was crazy. What is it with the free marches and crazy?

its more you know what i have no idea im a cutrual preservist but the marchers need a wake up coll

#1416
Lulupab

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Umm what copy of Asunder were you reading?

On page 405 Rhys says there were hundreds-meaning less then a 1000, probably quite a bit less then 1000, certainly not 1000s. On page 400 right before the conclave he says the ruin was now bursting with over 100 mages, he says there were hundreds of mages to man the battlements on 401,

They also make it clear that they can't depend on anyone else to show up so that is why they went ahead and voted when they did.

I actually read asunder long ago, but Cameron Lee Interview and (http://www.dragonage...plar-war-begins) and (http://dragonage.wik...age-Templar_War) also mentions it, direct quote:

"The surviving first enchanters, the Grand Enchanter among them, retreated to the fortress of Andoral's Reach. Most of the fifteen Circles rose against the templars, with thousands of mages gathering at Andoral's Reach in the following months. It is predicted that with hundreds of mages manning the battlements, they could off an army ten times their size."
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#1417
TTTX

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He really wasn't though... craziness should not be used as excuse for immoral behavior.  His plans and motivations were rational.  He knew what he was doing the whole time...

Crazy and smart is two sides of the same coin.

 

I mean just look like the Joker, he is crazy and smarter then you think.



#1418
Icy Magebane

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Crazy and smart is two sides of the same coin.

 

I mean just look like the Joker, he is crazy and smarter then you think.

I disagree completely, and the Joker is a bad example since he's basically Mary Sue Supervillain who never gets put to death no matter how many people he murders.  I won't even discuss that character further.



#1419
wcholcombe

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I actually read asunder long ago, but Cameron Lee Interview and (http://www.dragonage...plar-war-begins) and (http://dragonage.wik...age-Templar_War) also mentions it, direct quote:

"The surviving first enchanters, the Grand Enchanter among them, retreated to the fortress of Andoral's Reach. Most of the fifteen Circles rose against the templars, with thousands of mages gathering at Andoral's Reach in the following months. It is predicted that with hundreds of mages manning the battlements, they could off an army ten times their size."

Hmm well that is interesting.  But then he goes on to just say hundreds, which is what Asunder says.  I don't know, with everything we have been presented, the emphasis from Gaider has always always been low magic world and most of the White Spire was supposed to have been empty.  But it does say on page 91 there were several hundred mages counting the lowest apprentice at the conclave of the White spire before Rhys and company left with Wynne.

 

So its Gaider and Lee contradicting each other, but Lee also contradicts himself.....

 

Also, why on no computer or even my smart phone can I not get that website to load!!!!!!!



#1420
TTTX

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I disagree completely, and the Joker is a bad example since he's basically Mary Sue Supervillain who never gets put to death no matter how many people he murders.  I won't even discuss that character further.

If you want a real life example then look Howard Hughes that guy was pretty much a genius, but he was crazy.



#1421
Icy Magebane

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If you want a real life example then look Howard Hughes that guy was pretty much a genius, but he was crazy.

lol... okay fine, if Decimus may have been "crazy," then Alrik and Karras could just as easily have been "crazy" as well.  Let's excuse every villain's behavior on the off chance that they might have been "crazy," but in a good way.  Sounds legit.



#1422
TTTX

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lol... okay fine, if Decimus may have been "crazy," then Alrik and Karras could just as easily have been "crazy" as well.  Let's excuse every villain's behavior on the off chance that they might have been "crazy," but in a good way.  Sounds legit.

Where did I write that excused what they did? 



#1423
Master Warder Z_

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You know Andoral's reach rhymes with Helm's Deep.



#1424
EmperorSahlertz

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lol... okay fine, if Decimus may have been "crazy," then Alrik and Karras could just as easily have been "crazy" as well.  Let's excuse every villain's behavior on the off chance that they might have been "crazy," but in a good way.  Sounds legit.

You aren't excusing their behavior by saying they are crazy. You are explaining their behavior.



#1425
The Baconer

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Thrask was the only one with any actual conspiracy against the Templar, and Samson was a part of that conspiracy. Alrik was breaking the law, but wasn't conspiring against the Templars. Only what Thrask did, could reasonably be cause for the Seekers to take any serious note. However that entire situation was dealt with before the Seekers could involve themselves.

 

A conspiracy against, or a conspiracy within. Either one undermines the Order's ability to operate effectively and within established Chantry law. That Alrik's cabal was able to operate for years leading to both Templar and mage casualties implies that the Order stationed a the Gallows is not adequately organized or disciplined. Thrask's rebellion and Templars killing each other over differing interpretations of conduct further prove that this is the case.

 

Of which only two are mages. Of which only one is under surveilance. It is ambigious wether or not the Templars had any knowledge about Merrill. Isabela, Varric, Fenris, Sebastian and Aveline are all unimportant to the Templars. Much less so to the Seekers.

 

The aforementioned one that is under surveillance is, again, a key player within the underground, and has managed to evade capture for years.

 

And the Champion's close ties to the captain of the city guard would certainly be a point of interest, especially if they are one of the suspects regarding the unrest in Kirkwall.

 

Uhm.. I think they know perfectly well that an Apostate killed the Templars in the Chantry... After all they READ Karl's letters and knew he was meeting with an Apostate there..

 

You mean Alrik and those working for him knew. The ambush at the Chantry was purposefully executed without Meredith's knowledge, along with the rite of Tranquility being used on Karl.

 

And I've pointed out several times by now, that it was indeed small-time. What Alrik did was not something of concern to the Seekers, UNLESS it was known to Meredith what Alrik did, and she still did nothing. In that case the Seekers would take action.

 

Yes, the situation can literally be acknowledged as the worst of any Circle in Thedas, but that's still small time as far as the Seekers are concerned. Anything that can compromise the Order's directive and guidelines becomes a concern for the Seekers, if it is not resolved by the Knight Commander for whatever reason.

 

Oh? Now you arrogantly presume to know what the Seekers know and didn't know? So not only do you have complete insight to their operational tactics and priorities, you also have complete insight into the database?

 

Yes, I presume to know the information they explicitly share with us in the game, specifically "We (incorrectly) assume that this faction is behind the unrest here" and "We don't actually know what made the Circle resist annulment"

 

Yeah.... They must have done such a terrible job, considering that the mages are willing to negotiate now... In reality it seems the Templars and Seekers have fought the mages to a point where both parties are willing to negotiate, which means that both sides have been doing good job fighting eachother.

 

Oh yes, it seems that both factions are very capable when it comes to wanton destruction, with the common people of Thedas paying the price. I bet the kingdoms are just clamoring to give them all medals.


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