3241 réponses à ce sujet

[Willowhugger]

I'm doubtful that will be the case, considering what Cameron Lee said about being able to side with either the mages or the templars to bring the war to an end, as well as the recent Skyhold interview where it mentioned choosing between mages or templars during the war, and a particular outcome taking place based on that decision. Which sounds much more appealing to me than forcing the mages and templars into a compromise, which I highly doubt is necessary to resolve the Breach.

 

Well, they've been very clear that the defeated remnants of military forces you confront will be forced underneath you too.

So, either way, the Mages and Templars will join you.

Win or lose.

 

It just won't them in your tower.

[lil yonce]

Eh, mages as a whole don't have enough raw power to combat demons. 

To be a full mage they have to pass the harrowing - they have to beat a demon. So they don't have enough "raw power" to combat demons? Based on what?

[Br3admax]

To be a full mage they have to pass the harrowing - they have to beat a demon. So they don't have enough "raw power" to combat demons? Based on what?

You don't "beat a demon" to pass the Harrowing. You just tell it no when it wants to possess you. Did you play the Magi Origin? 

[Br3admax]

The idea of the post I was responding to as I understood it was that all mages are worth something in a fight. The main point to my response was that that's not true. Combine that with the small number of mages, and it's really only the raw power of the mages that are worth something that makes the mages a good bet.

That actually was not the idea of the post I made. The point was the average Templar is probably above the average mage in combat prowess. 

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

You don't "beat a demon" to pass the Harrowing. You just tell it no when it wants to possess you. Did you play the Magi Origin? 

You kill a Rage demon that had limited brainpower and tried to take you by force, then you see through a trick by a Pride Demon who declined to grind you into the dust despite having more than enough power. I doubt that the mages are able to control what you face, but if they could that's what they would likely arrange, as neither alone is entirely good evidence that you're unlikely to be possessed.

 

 

That actually was not the idea of the post I made. The point was the average Templar is probably above the average mage in combat prowess.

Sorry about that. You are quite correct there, of course, but the fact remains that the mages who are worth it are able to do things no Templar can do even in imagination. The Templars actually aren't much more versatile than the average well-trained swordsman, and given that you actually have a need for a military advisor I'd have to guess you're not going to be hurting for those.

[Sir DeLoria]

That actually was not the idea of the post I made. The point was the average Templar is probably above the average mage in combat prowess.

Once a Templar gets close enough most mages are done for. The final battle cutscene from DA2 managed to show that pretty realistically imo.

[lil yonce]

You don't "beat a demon" to pass the Harrowing. You just tell it no when it wants to possess you. Did you play the Magi Origin? 

And you have to fight other demons in the fade before you face mouse. So mages don't have to have the "raw power" to fight demons? Based on what?

[Br3admax]

You kill a Rage demon that had limited brainpower and tried to take you by force, then you see through a trick by a Pride Demon. I doubt that the mages are able to control what you face, but if they could that's what they would likely arrange, as neither alone is entirely good evidence that you're unlikely to be possessed.

 

The rage demon wasn't the test. It was a pawn of the Pride demon that posed as Mouse. All kinds of ifs and ands are thrown in.

 

 

Sorry about that. You are quite correct there, of course, but the fact remains that the mages who are worth it are able to do things no Templar can do even in imagination. The Templars actually aren't much more versatile than the average well-trained swordsman, and given that you actually have a need for a military advisor I'd have to guess you're not going to be hurting for those.

 

They are more equipped to combat magical energies from the Fade than any soldier in Thedas. Whether the mages have magic on par with the demons, remains to be seen, but it's doubtful considering abominations that give even the Templars trouble.

[HiroVoid]

And you have to fight other demons in the fade before you face mouse. So mages don't have to have the "raw power" to fight demons? Based on what?

I honestly figured the rage demon was supposed to be the test, and mouse slipped into the test.  It makes sense if you consider how it seems they wouldn't want to fight a pride demon, especially with a small group of templars, and mouse still knew to tell the protagonist s/he needed to go somewhere else before letting him in knowing the templars would do everything to kill him there.

[Br3admax]

And you have to fight other demons in the fade before you face mouse. So mages don't have to have the "raw power" to fight demons? Based on what?

For one, I doubt every mage faces the exact same test as you. Second, a pride demon helped all the way. Third, I didn't say mages lacked raw power. I said mages as a whole aren't powerhouses. Mages range anywhere from terrible to explemerory. Templars range anywhere from well trained soldier to elites, all able to combat magical anomalies and maleficarum.  

[lil yonce]

I honestly figured the rage demon was supposed to be the test, and mouse slipped into the test.  It makes sense if you consider how it seems they wouldn't want to fight a pride demon, especially with a small group of templars, and mouse still knew to tell the protagonist s/he needed to go somewhere else before letting him in knowing the templars would do everything to kill him there.

I wouldn't think they'd knowingly force an apprentice to face a pride demon either, but some dialogue can be interpreted that mouse is the real test.

[EmperorSahlertz]

I doubt the Circle would let a mere apprentice, face one of the deadliest demons yet encountered in the Fade as a "test". That being said, there are many ways to fight off a demon, and it doesn't have to be throguh combat. Lore is also a little iffy on the abilities of mages while within the Fade. Maybe a mage, who doesn't have any combat capabilities in the waking world, can handle himself perfectly fine in the Fade. It is after all the realm of dreams, and the mages are manipulators of it.

[Br3admax]

Amell's a Mary Sue/Gary Stu powerhouse who finishes the Harrowing quicker than most, so theres a chance. I also think since the dream in the way it did, the point was to reject a demon. Not to combat it. 

[Willowhugger]

Amell's a Mary Sue/Gary Stu powerhouse who finishes the Harrowing quicker than most, so theres a chance. I also think since the dream in the way it did, the point was to reject a demon. Not to combat it. 

 

I thought that it was Irving pretending to be a Pride Demon pretending to be a Fade Ghost.

 

If you say yes, you get your head chopped off.

 

But you never actually are going to be possessed because the demon is Irving.

Which makes sense.

[lil yonce]

For one, I doubt every mage faces the exact same test as you. Second, a pride demon helped all the way. Third, I didn't say mages lacked raw power. I said mages as a whole aren't powerhouses. Mages range anywhere from terrible to explemerory. Templars range anywhere from well trained soldier to elites, all able to combat magical anomalies and maleficarum.  

They don't have to fight the same test, but at some point fighting is very likely involved. I think it highly unlikely that fighting is seldom involved in the Fade.

 

Also, there is an entry in WoT that describes a mage battling a demon for their harrowing - "The demon they made me face took the shape of a great cat. As we battled, it spoke in my mind. It told me that I would eventually stumble, and then it would pounce. [...]" Fighting seems standard.

 

You said mages as a whole lack the raw power to combat demons - you did not say they weren't powerhouses. So, based on what?

 

And mages aren't well trained after passing the harrowing? They're only considered full mages of the circle once they pass the harrowing - and they continuing training and studying long after the test. And templars can't be terrible soldiers? Okay.

[Willowhugger]

The Harrowing is two stage.

A mage has to show they can physically fight off a demon if one comes after them.

 

Also, they're able to walk and chew gum at the same time by being smart enough not to let a demon into their body.

Doubly so with a Templar standing right over them.

 

Anders, Uldred, and others prove to be quite stupid by missing this after passing the Harrowing.

 

The fact so many people fail their Harrowing is kind of pathetic.

[raging_monkey]

The Harrowing is two stage.A mage has to show they can physically fight off a demon if one comes after them. Also, they're able to walk and chew gum at the same time by being smart enough not to let a demon into their body.Doubly so with a Templar standing right over them. Anders, Uldred, and others prove to be quite stupid by missing this after passing the Harrowing. The fact so many people fail their Harrowing is kind of pathetic.

i love the idea but having opinions like that arent gonna help the cause

[EmperorSahlertz]

The Harrowing is two stage.

A mage has to show they can physically fight off a demon if one comes after them.

 

Also, they're able to walk and chew gum at the same time by being smart enough not to let a demon into their body.

Doubly so with a Templar standing right over them.

 

Anders, Uldred, and others prove to be quite stupid by missing this after passing the Harrowing.

 

The fact so many people fail their Harrowing is kind of pathetic.

Not really.. First of all, the mages aren't physically fighting off any demons. They are in the Fade, and as such everything is incorporeal. They aren't following the rules of the waking world, but the rules of the Fade. What they prove during the Fade, is that they are capable of seeing through the ploys of demons, that they will face on a nightly routine in the future of their lives. Just saying "no" is not gonna cut it every time, since a demon can also forcefully possess a mage. If you say no, and the demon decides not to honour your desire, you have to be capable of fighting it off.

 

That so many mages fail their Harrowing, is a testament to both how dangerous demons are, and how fickle the fate of mages can be.

[Willowhugger]

Not really.. First of all, the mages aren't physically fighting off any demons. They are in the Fade, and as such everything is incorporeal. They aren't following the rules of the waking world, but the rules of the Fade. What they prove during the Fade, is that they are capable of seeing through the ploys of demons, that they will face on a nightly routine in the future of their lives. Just saying "no" is not gonna cut it every time, since a demon can also forcefully possess a mage. If you say no, and the demon decides not to honour your desire, you have to be capable of fighting it off.

 

That so many mages fail their Harrowing, is a testament to both how dangerous demons are, and how fickle the fate of mages can be.

 

Solas' ability to lucid dream every night wouldn't be unique if every mage did it.

[EmperorSahlertz]

Solas' ability to lucid dream every night wouldn't be unique if every mage did it.

It is not his ability to dream that is unique. It is what he gains from his dreams. Because of his unique approach to the Fade, he can garner information no other mage can.

[Hellion Rex]

Solas' ability to lucid dream every night wouldn't be unique if every mage did it.

Not quite. His ability lets him:

"Okay, so, the Fade—bear with me, this gets a little weird—the Fade is the spirit side of the Dragon Age universe. It’s this incredible place full of dreams and memories, imprints left behind by powerful emotions or events in our world. Solas has trained himself to do something a lot like lucid-dreaming. He goes to ancient ruins where the Veil is thin, goes to sleep, and actually experiences the history of places no one else has seen in centuries."

 

It's more psychometry via Fade travel then simply lucid dreaming.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

It's more psychometry via Fade travel then simply lucid dreaming.

Except that given the way the Fade works the two are kind of the same thing in that universe.

[Hellion Rex]

Except that given the way the Fade works the two are kind of the same thing in that universe.

*shrugs*
I just wanted to use psychometry in a sentence lol.

[Br3admax]

They don't have to fight the same test, but at some point fighting is very likely involved. I think it highly unlikely that fighting is seldom involved in the Fade.

 

Nah. There are no actual fights in the Fade. This is the realm of dreams, where will turns anything into anything else. It doesn't work the same. 

 

 

 

Also, there is an entry in WoT that describes a mage battling a demon for their harrowing - "The demon they made me face took the shape of a great cat. As we battled, it spoke in my mind. It told me that I would eventually stumble, and then it would pounce. [...]" Fighting seems standard.

 

Again, this is a battle of wills in the Fade. The spirit of Justice, Sloth, and even Mouse make this abundantly clear. They aren't actually combatting anything. 

 

You said mages as a whole lack the raw power to combat demons - you did not say they weren't powerhouses. So, based on what?

 

Because for a mage they're the same thing. A fight in the Fade isn't the same as a battle in Thedas, yet. I'm not going to pretend that mages aren't powerful. They obviously are, but demons are stronger, faster, and more powerful than they, the higher ups anyway. The Templars have resistances to these magics, as demons and mages wield the same type of magic. 

 

 

And mages aren't well trained after passing the harrowing? They're only considered full mages of the circle once they pass the harrowing - and they continuing training and studying long after the test. And templars can't be terrible soldiers? Okay.

Uh, no they can't be a terrible soldiers. They're charged with guarding the largest threat in Thedas and must stay vigil at all times over their charges. There's a screening process. And while mages can train, they will never go past their own natural ability without augmentation, lyrium being extremely dangerous, and blood magic. Neither of which are useful in this situation when compared with Templar might. Templars on the other hand are already selected to be above average soldiers and have already proven themselves as a whole multiple times throughout Thedosian history. 

[Willowhugger]

 

Nah. There are no actual fights in the Fade. This is the realm of dreams, where will turns anything into anything else. It doesn't work the same.

 

I disagree.

You imagine yourself fighting a demon, therefore you're fighting a demon.

It's not nearly as cerebral as all that.