147 réponses à ce sujet

[PsychoBlonde]

Which is why the Landsmeet needed to be called.

Loghain had good reasons for most of his actions but he had an appalling sense of public perception.

 

It LOOKED like a coup to outsiders.

I don't consider "Orlais is Teh Evulz" to be a good *reason*.  He had an understandable perspective on the dangers of allowing Orlais to get a foothold in Ferelden again.  That's not the same thing as a reasoned approach.  Someone with a *reasoned* fear of Orlesian influence would have done the following when convincing Cailan to fight the Blight alone failed:

 

Insist that the Orlesian forces be kept small, put under his PERSONAL command, and broken up into even smaller units to be assigned to fight alongside the most fanatically loyal of his own units so that he could keep his personal eye on them for the remotest possibility of treachery.

 

Demand that Orlesian nobles above a certain rank bring family members who could be held in Denerim as possible hostages against the later withdrawal of the Orlesian troops.  (Of course, this would be phrased as "invites you to bring your family to keep your morale up and provide you with the best possible comfort during this trying time--offering them the best of all possible accommodations in Denerim).

Those are REASONABLE responses.  "Betray your king to his death, attempt to poison one of your main allies, sell elves to Tevinter slavers and let the Darkspawn destroy half the country" are NOT reasonable responses. 

[Dabrikishaw]

I also:

 

* Recruit Sten

* Recruit Zevran

* Set Jowan free

* Spare that Circle Tower blood mage

* Kill Loghain

* Recruit Velanna

* Spare the Architect 

[AlexiaRevan]

 

One King is not worth thousands of soldiers' lives.

But he didn't leave just the king behind. There were warden , mages and soldier that he left behind . 

[PsychoBlonde]

I would have retreated at Ostagar too.

One King is not worth thousands of soldiers' lives.

It's everything else he did thereafter which is condemned.

 

Loghain did not retreat due to military necessity, but specifically as a stratagem to get Cailan killed.  If a retreat was truly necessary, he could have launched an attack for long enough to drive the Darkspawn back, then the entire force could have retreated in order, preventing half the army from being unnecessarily butchered.  As you say, one little vendetta is not worth thousands of soldiers' lives.

[aphelion4]

If they're hot or I like their personality, they get a free pass. I never killed Anders.

[Willowhugger]

My perspective?

I'm pretty sure the Orlesians would help with the Blight.

And then they WOULD betray Loghain and Fereldan twenty-minutes after the Archdemon was dead.

Because that's how Orlais rolls.

[Willowhugger]

Loghain did not retreat due to military necessity, but specifically as a stratagem to get Cailan killed.  If a retreat was truly necessary, he could have launched an attack for long enough to drive the Darkspawn back, then the entire force could have retreated in order, preventing half the army from being unnecessarily butchered.  As you say, one little vendetta is not worth thousands of soldiers' lives.

 

I took Loghain at his word regarding the battle and how it was already too late to win. It's ambiguous, though, so you're welcome to your perspective.

I think Loghain loved Calian like a son, though.

[Battlebloodmage]

I think someone already said this, but it blows my mind that some of you think that what Loghain did at Ostagar was justified. I don't even like elves, but even i wouldn't let them be forced into slavery. The poisoning of Eamon was also foul play.

Loghain deserved to die.

the good of many outweight the need of the few. Elves were suffered but it was to end the war by gathering support under one command. War is not about charity or playing nice. Nice ruler does not make the best ruler as we saw with unhardened Alistair and the dwarf ruler

[Dabrikishaw]

...Why did this turn into another Loghain thread?

[Willowhugger]

the good of many outweight the need of the few. Elves were suffered but it was to end the war by gathering support under one command. War is not about charity or playing nice. Nice ruler does not make the best ruler as we saw with unhardened Alistair and the dwarf ruler

 

Loghain's decisions with the elves was monstrous as was a bunch of other decisions. He was in over his head and the fact half of the country turned against him should have been a clue he was.

But he just double-downed on it.

[Willowhugger]

...Why did this turn into another Loghain thread?

 

It'll turn into an Anders thread eventually.

I'd say a Velanna thread but....

Does anyone like her?

[NoForgiveness]

I would have retreated at Ostagar too.

One King is not worth thousands of soldiers' lives.

It's everything else he did thereafter which is condemned.

 

One king would've been worth more then every single person there. Cailain bringing the orlesian grey wardens in would've stopped the blight and the civil war. Loghain's plan, if not for the hof, would've doomed at least Ferelden and probably a good chunk of the rest of Thedas.
 

[GodBrandon]

I would have retreated at Ostagar too.

One King is not worth thousands of soldiers' lives.

It's everything else he did thereafter which is condemned.

If Loghain would of stuck to the plan they would of won the battle. He didn't like Cailen asking for aid from Orlais because he was paranoid that they would take over Fereldan again, given the chance.
So he retreated and left Cailen's forces for dead.

His suspicions about Orlais do not justify leaving his king and all those men for dead.

[Willowhugger]

One king would've been worth more then every single person there. Cailain bringing the orlesian grey wardens in would've stopped the blight and the civil war. Loghain's plan, if not for the hof, would've doomed at least Ferelden and probably a good chunk of the rest of Thedas.

I wasn't worried about the Orlesian Grey Wardens but all the Knights who came with them.

[PsychoBlonde]

I also:

 

* Spare Sten

* Spare Zevran

* Spare Jowan

* Spare that Circle Tower blood mage

* Kill Loghain

* Spare the Architect 

Jowan was too stupid to live.  Despite his maundering about how he had no choice and that he regretted what he did, he kept doing the same stupid crap over and over, never learning.  If you're going to survive as a mage, you have to be smart enough to comprehend that anything that looks like a good "deal" for you (blood magic, Loghain's offer) IS A TRAP.  He did not have the brains to do that, so all he was ever going to accomplish was endless destruction until someone finally took him down.

Circle tower blood mage got whacked for the same reason.

 

The Architect was a dicey one for me.  His proposal sounded good--I'm all for giving the darkspawn a chance to be free--but I had no way of knowing how genuine his proposal actually was.  He claimed, after all, that he sent those darkspawn to Vigil's Keep to "ask for help"--but you don't ask for help by killing everyone in the Keep.  If they attack you, you WITHDRAW, you don't BUTCHER EVERYONE YOU CAN GET YOUR HANDS ON.  And if the "intelligent" darkspawn were too friggin dumb to understand such a distinction, then the Architect's proposal probably wouldn't work anyway.

I don't think it matters, though--if he's like Corypheus he probably just hopped to another body after you "killed" him, so whatever "decision" you made there was probably just to make YOU feel good.

[Ghost]

Trying to poison Arl Eamon
Plotting insurrection in the Circle
Putting Arl Howe in place
Ignoring the elves being sold into slavery.

A justification is not justified.

Loghain made a bunch of mistakes and compounded them with many immoral acts. Some of which I sympathized with like his handling of mages.

However, he SUCKS at politics.

Also, sending assassins to kill survivors.

[Battlebloodmage]

Loghain's decisions with the elves was monstrous as was a bunch of other decisions. He was in over his head and the fact half of the country turned against him should have been a clue he was.
But he just double-downed on it.

where did you get half the country is against him? If he can unite everyone under his rules, support of the mages, the nobles, the, outsiders. Just by looking at real world history, a lot of them were won by underhanded means. I don't care about the moral, I question whether the end justified the mean. If the warden didn't interfere, arl Eamon would die, he would gain support from the noblemen, various outdider groups and funds. He's an effective leader and a, practical one. I need that in an army not a, priest.

[Willowhugger]

Also, sending assassins to kill survivors.

 

The irony is, if he'd just let the Grey Wardens go after the retreat he'd probably have had a good rebuttal at the Landsmeet.

Sadly, there's no option to convince Alistair that Duncan dying was just the ravages of fate.

[PsychoBlonde]

I took Loghain at his word regarding the battle and how it was already too late to win. It's ambiguous, though, so you're welcome to your perspective.

I think Loghain loved Calian like a son, though.

 

"Too late to win" is not the same as "too late to salvage this mess".  Something like 90% of the casualties in any ground battle like that occur during the "rout", when people turn and flee.  Allowing a retreat in order or just letting Cailan's force break contact would have been the best option unless the Darkspawn force was *literally* so overwhelming AND well-led that they could have responded to an assault in such a way as to prevent both forces from breaking contact.  If that were remotely true they would have overrun all of Ferelden in a matter of days.

They had advance scouts and information on the extent of the horde.  Failing to assault was nothing more than premeditated murder.

[NoForgiveness]

I wasn't worried about the Orlesian Grey Wardens but all the Knights who came with them.

 

1) the war was 30 years before origins. Loghain's hate is not justified that long after the war.

2) The blight threatens every thing on the planet. With the grey wardens being literally the only thing that can stop it(which history proves and Loghain is still stupid enough not to believe), the only thing that really matters is getting grey wardens in the position to stop it.
 

[Willowhugger]

1) the war was 30 years before origins. Loghain's hate is not justified that long after the war.

2) The blight threatens every thing on the planet. With the grey wardens being literally the only thing that can stop it(which history proves and Loghain is still stupid enough not to believe), the only thing that really matters is getting grey wardens in the position to stop it.
 

 

Again, the Orlesians would have conquered Fereldan IMHO.

Why? Because, they're scum.

 

Not saying conquest by the French Tyrants isn't preferrable to annihilation but I'm glad we have a third option.

[PsychoBlonde]

Although, I did actually let Loghain join the Grey Wardens, because I was basically planning on feeding him to the Archdemon.  And it worked.

[Al Foley]

This is a tough issue because it has a great many variables that come to mind as I consider the question.  In the classic case of Anders I let him live, at least during...well both my playthroughs.  The first time I did it I thought, and my Hawke agreed , that it was unfair for her to play judge, jury, and executioner in such a serious matter.  If one is honest and has fair play in mind then one has to consider that being a judge, a jury, and an executioner may not be morally right, especially in the middle of a crisis. 

 

But, she wasn't exactly happy about it.  And I do believe if companions, even ones I like, do things I disagree with or that my Inquisitor disagrees with I will rebuke them, may even punish them.  Heck, I even sat Fenris in the time out corner for his going psycho in Act 2 over the whole Slavers coming to get him thing.  So, it depends on the crime, and it depends on the punishment, and circumstances. 

[HiroVoid]

Although, I did actually let Loghain join the Grey Wardens, because I was basically planning on feeding him to the Archdemon.  And it worked.

And Loghain gets to forever be remembered as the one that killed it.  Everyone wins!

[PsychoBlonde]

Again, the Orlesians would have conquered Fereldan IMHO.

The Fereldens kicked them out before, they could do it again.  And the possibility could be vastly mitigated, as I indicated earlier in the thread.  In fact, with Orlesian small troops embedded in the Ferelden military, denied direct communication with each other, and overseen by fanatically loyal Fereldens,  if you prepared intelligently you could retaliate so brutally to any hint of treachery that Orlais wouldn't even be in a position to *threaten* an invasion, much less carry it out.

 

Plus, you know, hostages.  If they refuse those conditions, obviously they're PLANNING to betray you so now you have an actual reason to keep them out other than "I HATES THEM FOREVER!!!"