And Loghain gets to forever be remembered as the one that killed it. Everyone wins!
I was totally fine with that... in fact, I wanted to laugh in Morrigan's face when she tried to appeal to vanity when she was trying to sell me on the idea of the Dark Ritual...
And Loghain gets to forever be remembered as the one that killed it. Everyone wins!
Dude was actually a hero in the earlier war, I have no problem with letting him get the props so long as he's DEAD when he gets them.
I understand why they didn't put the explanation about the whole "Grey Warden must Kamikaze on Archdemon" thing BEFORE the Landsmeet, but, to me, that would have been SUCH a BEAUTIFUL scene if you'd been able to flat-out USE that as a reason to keep Loghain alive. I would have been like:
And the look on Alistair and Anora's faces? PRICELESS.
As it was, I wanted to be able to say "excuse me Riordan, I have to go bash Alistair's door down and tell him this RIGHT NOW, also a big fat 'I TOLD YOU SO, IDIOT'"
I killed Loghain for the massive amount of trouble he caused. There are some things I can forgive but Loghain's war crimes amount in the thousands. Didn't let Alistair do it because I didn't want it to be a revenge thing. Anders, however, I kept alive, primarily because I expected siding with the mages would likely result in everyone being slaughtered by the Templars - they were clearly the stronger force IMO. It was a suicide mission, and Anders deserved to die fixing the mess he made. Of course, Anders doesn't die... so who knows what happened after that. Maybe he'll appear in DA:I.
This is a tough issue because it has a great many variables that come to mind as I consider the question. In the classic case of Anders I let him live, at least during...well both my playthroughs. The first time I did it I thought, and my Hawke agreed
, that it was unfair for her to play judge, jury, and executioner in such a serious matter. If one is honest and has fair play in mind then one has to consider that being a judge, a jury, and an executioner may not be morally right, especially in the middle of a crisis.
A moral man must be willing to shoot his own dog, should it become necessary. He doesn't farm it out. Anders was RABID. Fairness doesn't enter into it--is it fair to all the other people he might blow up to let him loose? You *saw* what he did. He took responsibility for it. He told you *why* he did it. You *saw* the state he was in due to the effects of Justice on him. Letting him loose was an explicit sanction for him to go forth and blow up more people.
Did you apply this consideration consistently? Hawke kills a heck of a lot of people during the course of the game.
I killed Loghain for the massive amount of trouble he caused. There are some things I can forgive but Loghain's war crimes amount in the thousands. Didn't let Alistair do it because I didn't want it to be a revenge thing. Anders, however, I kept alive, primarily because I expected siding with the mages would likely result in everyone being slaughtered by the Templars - they were clearly the stronger force IMO. It was a suicide mission, and Anders deserved to die fixing the mess he made. Of course, Anders doesn't die... so who knows what happened after that. Maybe he'll appear in DA:I.
Wow, that's rough! I would have been pretty peeved if my "Feed Loghain do the Archdemon" scheme hadn't worked out. I probably would have loaded an earlier save and "fixed" it--shows dedication to the decision-making premise stick with an outcome this way.
The following opinions are that of myself as myself and as the warden, not as the other wardens in which I or you have played:
Dog/Barkspawn is best companion. no one can dispute this while still being sane.
Oghren is a very reliable drunkard. Never change, Oghren.
In regards to the Zevran, I have always spared him. Everyone deserves a chance, of which he never had any: both in regards to his path in life...and against me in battle. (Cue arrogant pose, here). He's also a funny guy, so may as well have him around.
Sten is an honorable Qunari, and a good friend. His actions were foreign yet horrible, but I can understand that he did not wish to do what he did.
I trust Morrigan more than I trust Lelianna. I can trust that Morrigan will consistently be a scary shrew looking out for numero uno, but I do not trust Lelianna as a friend. Ally? Yes. Source of information? Yes. Friend? No.
I don't need a nanny, Wynne. Stop bothering me. I only keep you around because you do the heal-y stuff.
Fowlicide aside, Shale is a good person who's trying to rediscover themselves after who knows how long.
I always spare Loghain, sacrificing my friendship and comradery with Alistair:
Yes, he left the battle of Ostagar. I believe he felt it to be for the good of Ferelden. What if he stayed? It was the Blight (which he didn't believe it to be, admittedly), but would it be possible that the army could have stopped it then and there? If the army fell there Ferelden would be defenseless save for Alistair and the other warden (as currently played by myself)...and would Eamon's knights along with a few rag-tag bannorns and the treaties be enough then? You might not like his actions or his reasoning, but saving those troops at that point allowed for more soldiers to fight in the final battle.
Loghain's loathing (hue hue) of the Orlesians is understandable (although extreme in a way no one could understand without experiencing it themselves) by my warden, especially after hearing all about how they operate from Lelianna,though I personally would have allowed their Grey Wardens with open arms and barred the Chevaliers at the border. Looking into Loghain's history in the fight, I'd feel the same way about the country that allowed for the rape and murder of my mother, the theft of my childhood dog and companion, and the source of all sorts of wartime atrocities.
Loghain's worst mistake was relying on Rendon Howe as his political right-hand, which I do not consider a crime. Howe is the one who hires Zevran to kill the wardens. Look at Loghain's face when Howe brings the matter up: not only does he seem indifferent to plan, but he also seems a little worried, or perhaps disappointed (I've noticed him making that type of face multiple times in cutscenes. He never seems pleased with what he's doing). I wouldn't be surprised if Howe was also the main force behind the slavers and the poisoning of Arl Eamon, and Loghain simply accepted it (not saying that's good, mind). As a Human Noble (and as any other warden), it gives me great pleasure to single-handedly put Howe down.
When talked to, Loghain admits he made mistakes and wants redemption. He is a skilled fighter and despite his actions he is still seen by many as the Hero of River Dane. A symbol is a powerful thing to have, and the Grey Wardens accept all kinds of people...Something Alistair refuses to understand.
I haven't played through Awakening or Dragon Age Two, but I'm certain that Justice and Oghren (again) would be my bros, and I care for nothing of what I've read of the DA2 Companions...especially poor, poor Justice.
As for Inquisition...? It isn't out yet, but I'll probably get along with Iron Bull and Blackwall the Duncan look-alike at the very least.
It'll turn into an Anders thread eventually.
I'd say a Velanna thread but....
Does anyone like her?
I did! In fact I wanted to romance her with my original warden more than I wanted to romance Leilana or Morrigan. I guess that makes me the exception 
I've only ever rescued Sten once, my default choice is leave him to the Darkspawn
I've only ever spared Anders once, I usually kill him Same for Zevran
I've offered Isabela up to the Qunari a few times
I kill the Architect but I usually spare Avernus
I've mentioned this before elsewhere that I've always wanted to kill Merrill (in my rabid anti blood mage run throughs which are most of them) but never got the chance.
The only bad thing I've never done to a companion is give Fenris back to Denerius which I'm told you can do. To be honest when the option comes up I've always assumed it would just result in a three way fight you vs. Fenris vs. Denerius I didn't know until recently you can actually just let denerius reclaim fenris and wave him farewell
And Loghain gets to forever be remembered as the one that killed it. Everyone wins!
Yep. He gets his statue and I get my gold, riches, land and title.
My City elf is so smug.
When I play these games I never really think about what is right and fair. I try to be efficient based on how I perceive the world. For example, the whole problem with Landsmeet is that I didn't trust Anora. She is a snake and there isn't a chance she is going to rule alone.
When I did my mage playthrough (which was the second) I just killed Loghain. I didn't want to deal with him anymore and I didn't want Anora to rule alone. Good thing that hardening him actually makes a difference.
For my first run when I played my Human noble playthrough it was a whole different matter.
I hoped that if I recruit Loghain, Alistair will continue fighting the darkspawn, even if he leaves the party. After all a Warden is for life. Even if he is not with me, he is still useful somewhere so sentiment aside, we gain 2 warriors for the war effort at the price of one and all this talk with Zevran about assassinations made me think I have more options that I actually do. Turns out nothing of this matters but well, I think my thought process was sound.
As for Loghain himself, he lost and he is kind of broken, he is to be a warden so no politics for him, everyone hates him at the landsmeet. Plus I'm involved with his daughter. I can trust him to play nice.
It turned out I could have Alistair and Anora marry and rule together while keeping Loghain. But I don't remember getting this option. If I was to metagame I may had chosen this one. I dislike Loghain and I think that he is incompetent as a leader, but he is a strong fighter and still useful. I don't care about his offenses. After all now he wouldn't be able to avoid the darkspawn threat.
Sten and Zevran I recruit them. No point not to recruit Sten. He is a strong Qunari and I need warriors. His intent is clear. Zevran is a risk that I'm willing to take.
As for other companions. I never even considered killing Velanna. She is a nuclear bomb packed in elven frame and her intentions are perfectly clear. I can trust her. There wasn't any conflict with the architect as well cause I let him live. I'm still not sure about this one but it's a risk I'm willing to take. Him starting the blight is irrelevant. It was inevitable anyway.
In my canon run Anders is dead even if I sided with mages. But I let him live in most playthroughs cause I play on nightmare and he is the strongest companion. But really he can't be trusted anymore and I don't want to deal with his shenanigans again. The shitnpiss bomb was enough. I wish we had more options for this whole thing. And if I could kill him after dealing with Meredith I would.
With the Isabela thing.. She certainly is to blame for not handling that well, but the carnage was caused by the Qunari and their problems with Tevinter. I don't care if the Arishok thinks otherwise, and even if I liked the guy, she is mine, and if he wants to take her, only one way to do it. If I had the option to turn Isabela to Kirkwall authorities I'd think about it. But after coming back with the tome I know where we stand.
Loghain doesn't care about power or money so your elf having those things wouldn't bother him even in death.Yep. He gets his statue and I get my gold, riches, land and title.
My City elf is so smug.
Loghain doesn't care about power or money so your elf having those things wouldn't bother him even in death.
They don't have to bother him. He like any tool served its use. And he do so splendidly.
Loghain doesn't care about power or money so your elf having those things wouldn't bother him even in death.
If Loghain is dead, the Warden is alive, and the Blight is over, who gets credit in the end doesn't matter all that much. The big pile of money and royal favor the Warden gets for being a hero certainly helps, of course...
A moral man must be willing to shoot his own dog, should it become necessary. He doesn't farm it out. Anders was RABID. Fairness doesn't enter into it--is it fair to all the other people he might blow up to let him loose? You *saw* what he did. He took responsibility for it. He told you *why* he did it. You *saw* the state he was in due to the effects of Justice on him. Letting him loose was an explicit sanction for him to go forth and blow up more people.
Did you apply this consideration consistently? Hawke kills a heck of a lot of people during the course of the game.
The sole exception to my "spare everyone I can" was Anders (I even spared the Tevinter slaver so he could tell his buddies that that Ferelden was protected). Anders wanted to die, he'd started killing innocents, and he'd also potentially branded mages as monsters in the eyes of the public. I agreed with revolt against the Templars and Chantry but as people say you need to get your hands dirty in this--that includes punishing your side who do war crimes. It broke Hawke's heart, though, and he hoped both Justice and Anders found peace rather than the Void.
I'd like to give person always change to redeem themselves and that's what most of companions are doing. I give most of NPC's same chance but usually you don't just get chance. Also, people tend to care and forgive more to people close to them than those who they don't know, odd thing.
If some of the fan speculation about Varric is correct (DA:I's Judas), he will share Ander's fate in my playthrough.
What's the theory?
And yeah, I think I may be a little bias, but I extend it to others if they're willing to be better people like our companions are.
Hell the only reason I'm executing Anders in this playthrough is because it's more of a mercy.
I find it very, very hard to not execute Nathaniel. He is in my eyes the biggest companion jerk in the the DA games released so far.
Yes, it's pretty obvious that he can be a companion, and sometimes I just want to try out other options to see how they feel, but mostly it's just "you're not only the son of the most evil man in the universe, responsible for the death of my family, but you are always an arrogant, self-entitled d!ck about it. You come here to claim what you say your family built (and lost), but don't even have the decency to excuse yourself for the crimes they did. Oh, and by the way, you commited the crime of burglary and don't feel sorry about it either. Yes, I will gladly have you executed."
Isabela gets more leeway from me, because she's sexy and funny.
Oh, I usually kill Loghain as well. I don't see any reason to let him live. He's neither sexy nor funny, after all.
In DA:O, you could tell some party members explicitly to leave. In DA:II, you just didn't visit them anymore. I liked the DA:O choice better.
I find it very, very hard to not execute Nathaniel. He is in my eyes the biggest companion jerk in the the DA games released so far.
Yes, it's pretty obvious that he can be a companion, and sometimes I just want to try out other options to see how they feel, but mostly it's just "you're not only the son of the most evil man in the universe, responsible for the death of my family, but you are always an arrogant, self-entitled d!ck about it. You come here to claim what you say your family built (and lost), but don't even have the decency to excuse yourself for the crimes they did. Oh, and by the way, you commited the crime of burglary and don't feel sorry about it either. Yes, I will gladly have you executed."
Isabela gets more leeway from me, because she's sexy and funny.
Oh, I usually kill Loghain as well. I don't see any reason to let him live. He's neither sexy nor funny, after all.
In DA:O, you could tell some party members explicitly to leave. In DA:II, you just didn't visit them anymore. I liked the DA:O choice better.
For me, sparing Nathaniel comes down to this with my Cousland.
1. The guy didn't try to kill me.
2. The guy didn't kill any Wardens on his way in.
3. The guy just wanted some personal effects.
and 4#
4. If I killed the last Howe for no other reason than he was a Howe, wasn't I every bit as bad as his father?
Alistair maybe a bit too much of a goody-two-shoes, but chosing Loghain over Alistair is, to me, always an act of pure evil.
I can't believe some people excuse the general who
- ignores the actual threat in order to chase phantom threats.
- does not follow orders
- lies to and betrays his King
- specifically acts to have his King, his whole army and the Grey Wardens killed
- lies about the his actions
- starts a civil war that weakens the invaded land further
- grabs power for himself
- tries to assassinate the survivors to hide the truth
- poisons other nobles who stand in his way to power
- rewards people who assassinate other rightful nobles
Alistair maybe a bit too much of a goody-two-shoes, but chosing Loghain over Alistair is, to me, always an act of pure evil.
You're conflating forgiveness with mercy.
Loghain is ruined politically and the Grey Wardens are devastated. In my case, I also wanted to get Anora on my side (and Alistairs) and putting her father in the Grey Wardens is a way to satisfy this. I sacrificed my friendship and Alistair's respect to do so but maybe he won't have a miserable marriage as a result.
Loghain has a chance to earn his redemption now and MageJesus gives that option whenever he can.
I will say, MageJesus took off his robe, put on his greaves, and then promptly BEAT THE **** OUT OF LOGHAIN with his Arcane Warrior abilities back at the camp when he insulted Leliana.
That's my headcanon at least.
For me, sparing Nathaniel comes down to this with my Cousland.
4. If I killed the last Howe for no other reason than he was a Howe, wasn't I every bit as bad as his father?
I killed him not because he was a Howe, but because he was a jerk. In his speech, all he displayed was anger that the other side want and the entitlement of "I deserve, because I come from a noble family. Oh, and I hate you."
He commited a crime and he shows no sign of remorse. He even admitted that he would go after me if I let him go.
I don't punish people for their family. But if they commit a crime, are general a$$holes, show no remorse and tell me that they hate me, I don't see why they should be forgiven.
The comparison with his father fails, because what Rendon Howe did was not a rightful execution for a comitted crime. It was killing a rightful noble (and raping his wife) for personal gain.
You're conflating forgiveness with mercy.
I have no issue giving somebody mercy who sees the error of their ways. Jowan was very much a pityful soul, who tried to do right, but always fucked up. He saw what he did wrong. He was willing to atone. He deserved mercy.
Loghain never saw the error of his ways. He never admitted that he betrayed his king, he tries to assassinate the wardens, poison Earl Eamonn, started a civil war of horrendous brutality. He only gave up, because he was defeated.
I will only show mercy to those people who show regret. Or if they are funny and sexy. Yes, I mean Zevran.
So I wonder, if in Inquisition one of our companions were to do something that normally we would find outrageous, would you punish them for it just like you would for anyone else, or would you let them get away with it because they are one of your companions?
Well, some people yes. I for one, if discovered that an family member had murdered an person unjustly, I wouldn't exitate to warn the authorities of what they did.
I'd like to give person always change to redeem themselves and that's what most of companions are doing. I give most of NPC's same chance but usually you don't just get chance. Also, people tend to care and forgive more to people close to them than those who they don't know, odd thing.
This ^
Also when I think of it... While playing game I am not only more forgiving towards my companions but towards main character as well.
We do kill lots of people as Warden, as Hawke even more. We do pick locks, and steal stuff. And yet we still claim that we're good guys, unless we will choose evil type of playthrough. I know that most of our victims are "bad guys" or whatever, but it's still leaving hundereds of dead bodies behind. Sometimes I even feel bad about my character actions. For example I always felt uneasy about stealing stuff from graves. It gives you extra money or sometimes even some usefull equipement but it's not like my characters are running around naked. I could manage without it and yet I do end as grave robber.
So unless companions will do something really extreme like killing innocents, trying to kill me or working with the enemy behind my back I do not feel like they are much worse than my main character is at times to be honest.
Yeah, it's hard to blame Nathaniel for being a thief without being an enormous....
Hey, Leliana, I see a chest!
UNLOCK IT!
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