494 réponses à ce sujet

[Mihura]

Well there are a few...Celene is in a relationship with a female elf, Herren & Wade were confirmed by David Gaider to be a couple, the viscount's son (?) in DA2 was implied to be gay, Isabela clearly has had past female lovers, Leli flirts with Morrigan in a banter and Zev mentions one guy if you're critically low on his approval plus it's implied he was in a relationship with Taliesien (or however you spell it). But yes, it's not obvious or explicit which really bothers me. It feels like some of the companions other than Anders/Isa/Leli were just bi to justify the romance and even with these it wasn't always handled well or they always showed preference for the opp gender every time. I understand that we don't know everything about the companions and they could have had past relationships or whatever, but as long as they continue to show hetero couples on screen and leave the ss couples to the imagination, there's an issue. I hope DAI changes this. I'd love to see our lgbt companions get together with a ss npc/companion. In fact I'd like one of the bi characters get into a ss relationship just to show they aren't bi just to fill a quota.

 

I was talking about in game, it is always more subtle than straight characters in my opinion. If I remember right Leliana "flirts" with Morrigan could be more about pretty things you can dress that anything else. The only that I remember that is more blunt about it, it is Isabela. At one time I was kinda expecting her to flirt more heavily with Bethany but it did not happen.
 

So here's hoping that the companions now having a more diverse range of preferences, do show them because I sure do not see the point do that, if it is only to show to your specific PC. I really do not think that is the representation people want, the content should not be only a romance thing.  

[Melca36]

I'm still trying to wrap my head around the situation. It's difficult because not only am I incredibly disappointed by my options, but the way in which those options were communicated to us all has been pretty unfortunate. So it's hard to set that aspect of the situation aside, but I'll try...

 

So I think if they had stuck with the 2/2/2 scenario that they were working with a little over a year ago then I still would've been unhappy but I wouldn't have had much reason to complain. (Sure, I could make the argument that I don't like who was assigned what sexuality, but that's getting into the minutiae.)

 

It's the adding on of the two straight female options that kind of messes things up (which I think is what a lot of people are feeling frustrated about here).

 

They had extra time, so they wanted to give us a few more romances. That's really awesome of them!

 

They were so focused on fairness initially, though, so I wonder why they threw that to the wind?

 

If time and money was an issue (and that is the reason, we're told, why Solas and Cullen are straight and race-gated, even if the race-gating has been worked into the storyline), then why give us two straight romances? Why not one bi romance?

 

A bi elf-only Solas, and no Cullen at all, would have hurt a lot less, I think.

 

I would add that, alternatively, we could have had a bi Vivienne instead of Solas, but there are allegedly story reasons as to why Vivienne is not a romance option. Same with Varric.

 

Or bi human- and elf-only Cullen, no Solas. I seriously doubt there are major differences between the elf and human romances; my guess would be that they are both allowed because they are about the same height, so that's less work in terms of cinematics. It just happens to match up with Cullen's past history of being interested in both Surana and Amell. 

 

Only additional cost in terms of time and money with making one bisexual extra option, as opposed to two straight options, would be bringing in the male voice actors and also any cinematic issues (making the models mash up right when hugging, kissing, etc. takes place).

 

My conclusion to all of this would be... if making one bi option was too time-consuming and cost preventative, then there should have been no extra love interests at all!

 

EDIT: A couple more thoughts.

 

1. I hope not to see anymore complaints about the number of options for straight men. Every time I read a complaint like that my eyes get huge and I just shake my head.

 

2. I hope next go-around they return to all bi love interests. I think it has (understandably) meant a LOT to some gamers to have Sera and Dorian. So that has been massive, and I tip my hat to the team But it sure has also caused a lot of disappointment and heartache. I think the former outweighs the latter at present, but for DA4, it would be nice to go back to all bi... hopefully by then seeing a gay character in a video game won't be such an earth-shattering event. Gay and lesbian characters can populate the surrounding world as NPCs (and have their sexuality be obvious and perfectly natural and part of the storyline). That way we'd have inclusion as well as choice.

 

Just some thoughts ^^

 

Perhaps the writers wrote the characters accordingly to how they perceived them.   When all is said and done its still their game and they have the right to write it how they see fit.

 

I think its awesome there are actual characters that will identify as gay or Lesbian and I hope the Bi Characters acknowledge their sexuality as well.

[Melca36]

I'd rather play a game where there is a variety of sexualities and the characters should acknowledge it.

 

The fact remains they made all the characters BI in DA2 because the game was being rushed. They did it for convenience.

 

And yes...there is nothing wrong with them being all Bi but I think its important for ALL sexualities to be represented.

 

I want to see Dorian politely turn down a female inquisitors flirts.  I want to see Sera do the same if a male inquisitor hits on her.

 

I want  to see IB and Josephine discuss their beliefs/preferences/etc

 

All of those little touches will only add to the game. 

[shedevil3001]

i'd definatley have to agree melca, having unique companions with their own personalities and sexuality gives the game more in depth feel to it, it adds to the replay value and keeps things way more real, not everyone should be romancible by our protags, it just makes the game bland by doing that

[They call me a SpaceCowboy]

I think the gender and orientation of the asker matters and I gave you context as to why. I see you weren't curious about my answer at all and just wanted to argue.

 

Ie should have been gay or one or both bisexual) Again I am sorry for lumping the OP in with all the loud obnoxious people who regularly rage about this kind of thing, it was undeserved.

 

No I don't want to argue and am genuinely interested in a response to my actual question, so I'll try again.

 

 

If the balance and appropriation of a thing (in this case romances) has always been skewed in favor of one group and then in one single scenario it's equal or skewed in a different direction and that group complains that they should still be favored then yes I find it less valid than a member of a typically much less represented group asking to be favored for once. I feel this is especially true when members of the favored group who for once have not been especially pandered to are the ones making multiple threads, posts, and complaints about this while the other groups are much more subdued. 

 

Here you appear to be referring to those who are asking for more than the 2 options they were given. You've apparently read that into my question. That's not what I was saying at all. Nowhere in my question was there anything about being favoured. Therefore, this response is irrelevant to my question.

 

I've said multiple times, in this thread, that I disagree with those insisting Straight males be given more options.

 

Second, this 'favoured group' thing is a myth. Yes most games with romances have them only, or mostly,  for straight males. However, that doesn't mean all straight male players have enjoyed those games or are even aware of them. most players of any sexual standing could not care less about games with romances. I don't like being lumped into a group I don't identify with, and have that group be assigned 'favour'. I'm an individual, and so is everyone else. However, this point seems to be lost on everyone so I'm not going to try to make it anymore.

 

I'm sorry if you find my posts argumentative. That wasn't my intention. I argue against bad logic or reasoning, regardless of whether I agree with their position or not. In this thread it's been mostly against the guys who think we should get more options.

[They call me a SpaceCowboy]

I'd rather play a game where there is a variety of sexualities and the characters should acknowledge it.

 

The fact remains they made all the characters BI in DA2 because the game was being rushed. They did it for convenience.

 

And yes...there is nothing wrong with them being all Bi but I think its important for ALL sexualities to be represented.

 

I want to see Dorian politely turn down a female inquisitors flirts.  I want to see Sera do the same if a male inquisitor hits on her.

 

I want  to see IB and Josephine discuss their beliefs/preferences/etc

 

All of those little touches will only add to the game. 

 

I agree, I found the DA2 companions shallow, and not just in romances.

[They call me a SpaceCowboy]

I know we're just discussing could-have-beens, but if Blackwall was female then there would be no reason to remove Cullen or Solas as an option because one of them likely would have made the cut as a primary LI to make up for one less male LI. I just mentioned fem Blackwall cos fem Dwarves are sorely needed and Solas couldn't be a Dwarf and remain a mage.

 

Anyway, here's hoping equal romance options in future Bioware games. I'd rather have less but equal than more but inequal. LIs are in favor for straight women such as myself, but things could just as easily be the other way round so I'm not all too excited about the 'advantage'.

 

I was rather surprised Cullen was added later, not the main female LI, considering his fan base on BSN.

[Uirebhiril]

I was rather surprised Cullen was added later, not the main female LI, considering his fan base on BSN.

 

I guess that does more than anything to end the complaints about Bioware "pandering" to the fangirls.

[They call me a SpaceCowboy]

Well I believe the reason behind having more romanceable characters is so they can represent more varied sexualities/gender (not just all bi) not so that straight men can now have more options as a percentage of the whole. Do I think straight women should have four while others only get two? No. I think it would have been nicer if they had added the last two LIs as one m and one f and made them bi (heavily race gated if need be) so all sexualities have 3 options. I'd have loved that.

 

As an aside and not directing at you specifically, ME3 had issues for straight women where you literally can end up having no LI. I wonder how many straight men who complain about DAI now were up in arms about that in support for straight women...

 

 

I don't complain about DAI, but yes I did complain about the female options in ME3. That was pretty sad.

[AlexiaRevan]

 

 

Second, this 'favoured group' thing is a myth. Yes most games with romances have them only, or mostly, for straight males. However, that doesn't mean all straight male players have enjoyed those games or are even aware of them. most players of any sexual standing could not care less about games with romances. I don't like being lumped into a group I don't identify with, and have that group be assigned 'favour'. I'm an individual, and so is everyone else. However, this point seems to be lost on everyone so I'm not going to try to make it anymore.
 

Hum why this favored group is a myth ? Sure maybe some hetero males never heard of these games . Just like some girls never heard of them or some gay never heard of them . But you can't denie there is a chunk of peoples who use this game , know it was made for them in mind , and are probably the ones who used the 'We are the majoritee who buy the game we should have 1st dibs and more then everyone else' . 

 

So even if you had a room with 1 straigh guy that don't even know what this game is about . 1 who want more for himself then anyone else , 3 others (1lesb , 1gay mal , 1 Bi) . Well you can say 'I'm that guy! I have no idea these games had smoochie !' . But you can't ignore the guy who want more . Cose that guy will be the one writing a loud review and throw threath of canceling his purchase and will text anyone who he believe share his opinion and in no time you have a mini-revolution . 

 

These kind of guys may not be a GROUP . But they are there , they exist . And it's like a troll..you don't need an army of them to know how much harm they can do with words alone . 1 is enough to send someone to commit suicide if he is any good at trolling . 

 

See what I mean ? 

[They call me a SpaceCowboy]

Hum why this favored group is a myth ? Sure maybe some hetero males never heard of these games . Just like some girls never heard of them or some gay never heard of them . But you can't denie there is a chunk of peoples who use this game , know it was made for them in mind , and are probably the ones who used the 'We are the majoritee who buy the game we should have 1st dibs and more then everyone else' . 

 

So even if you had a room with 1 straigh guy that don't even know what this game is about . 1 who want more for himself then anyone else , 3 others (1lesb , 1gay mal , 1 Bi) . Well you can say 'I'm that guy! I have no idea these games had smoochie !' . But you can't ignore the guy who want more . Cose that guy will be the one writing a loud review and throw threath of canceling his purchase and will text anyone who he believe share his opinion and in no time you have a mini-revolution . 

 

These kind of guys may not be a GROUP . But they are there , they exist . And it's like a troll..you don't need an army of them to know how much harm they can do with words alone . 1 is enough to send someone to commit suicide if he is any good at trolling . 

 

See what I mean ? 

 

Sure, I agree, I just don't like being grouped with them simply because I share some physical features with them.

[AlexiaRevan]

Well maybe you outta start a revolution and go 'hush hush ! Loud troll! cose of ya I'm painted like you even though I'm not '

[They call me a SpaceCowboy]

Well maybe you outta start a revolution and go 'hush hush ! Loud troll! cose of ya I'm painted like you even though I'm not '

 

lol, I have done so in this thread

[Ina]

I was rather surprised Cullen was added later, not the main female LI, considering his fan base on BSN.

 

I was too. Just goes to show the dev team doesn't make decisions based on popularity. Fair enough, but I have to wonder had he been a primary choice maybe he wouldn't have been race gated. I can't say I wouldn't have preferred that scenario.

[CuriousArtemis]

I agree, I found the DA2 companions shallow, and not just in romances.

Because they were bisexual? Bisexual people and characters can be pretty deep, you know. Poor dears, don't hold their bisexuality against them.

[Ina]

 

Because they were bisexual? Bisexual people and characters can be pretty deep, you know. Poor dears, don't hold their bisexuality against them. 

 

Sorry I'm gonna rant a bit more on this thread.

 

Personally I found the DA2 characters deep enough, though I felt it wasn't always implemented very well especially with the romances. I mostly had two issues:

 

- A couple of characters were a bit one-note like Anders and Fenris but I totally buy that attitude given their experiences in life. I wish there were some lighter moments for those two, but given the scope of that game I can compromise on that. 

 

-The friendship/rivalry path while an improvement from the approval system, had many issues that negatively impacted a companion's character for me. For example, the game assumes if you're on a rivalry path you disagree with them on everything and vice versa on a friendship path. This was problematic because one couldn't be their friend and object or show concern for what they're getting involved in. And the companions go on assuming they have our full support. This was an issue with Merril, Anders and Fenris.

 

Now I felt Varric, Isa and Aveline were nearly perfect. Their character arcs almost always made sense as did most of their interactions with Hawke. I understand that things were simplified in order to cut down on a lot of extra content that they didn't have the room for, but perhaps some aspects could have used a little more attention. Now I also felt Sebastian could have been more developed, but he's a DLC character so I understand the limitation there but the same doesn't make sense for a couple of the companions. Regardless, warts and all, I greatly enjoyed DA2 as the story was personal and I found all companions memorable. I'm especially partial to Anders whom I love as a character through both both Awakening and DA2, even though I disagree with him on so many levels, found him a bit irritating at times and absolutely hated what he did in the end.

 

As to the bisexuality, I couldn't help but feel sometimes that some bi companions in Bioware games are bi just have a tick on the checklist and they show little to no ss interest outside of the PC. I'm not implying it's inherently wrong to greatly favor one gender (I defend Anders portrayal regarding this all the time) but when it's true for most of the bi PCs who are skewed towards the opp gender, it's a trend. This is so problematically heteronormative and I wish this wouldn't continue in future games.

[Tayah]

Because they were bisexual? Bisexual people and characters can be pretty deep, you know. Poor dears, don't hold their bisexuality against them.

Actually for the poster you quoted Shinian I don't think he is saying that at all. He's been pretty supportive of pretty much every group and it's not fair to assume an attitude that he hasn't demonstrated when in fact he's shown the opposite time and again. Let's not try and turn LGBT allies against LGBT people please. 

 

As it happens I agree that the companions in DA2 were shallow in a lot of ways basically more evidence the game was rushed and therefore under-developed and content was simplified and limited in areas including deep character development for the companions. Fenris, Anders and Merril are all narrowly developed around one goal and except for banter about their broodiness or lack of surroundings awareness for Merril show little interest in anything else over the ten year time period (unless you romance them perhaps... I never have so I can't say for sure) and the main reason I feel I know Isabella better is because of a brief cameo in DAO that had established for me coming in that she would be a bi duelist who liked sex and cheating at cards... all of which describes her in DA2 as well oddly enough. I like Isabella and I always romance Isabella... her banter is fun as is Varric's and those two have great banters with Aveline too which is why I often bring those three along.

 

But all of the characters could have done with more time and development regardless of how much I enjoy what's there. Or more accurately because of what's there... there are glimpses of really interesting characters and the banters are great which is why I would have liked more depth for them.

[daveliam]

As to the bisexuality, I couldn't help but feel sometimes that some bi companions in Bioware games are bi just have a tick on the checklist and they show little to no ss interest outside of the PC. I'm not implying it's inherently wrong to greatly favor one gender (I defend Anders portrayal regarding this all the time) but when it's true for most of the bi PCs who are skewed towards the opp gender, it's a trend. This is so problematically heteronormative and I wish this wouldn't continue in future games.

 

 

Agreed totally.  In fact, it was so skewed in some cases that it ruins the romance for me.  Zevran, in particular, was practically unplayable for me.  His preference for females was so "in your face" that it always made me feel like it was a f/m romance that just had a few lines of dialogue tacked on to make a m/m option.  However, my only other choice in that game is to have no romance at all, which is equally unappealing to me. 

 

I'm not sure if it's the same with the bisexual females, because I've only romanced a few of them (Liara, Leliana, Kelly), but there is a definite skew towards females in the bisexual male characters:

 

Sky - was married to a woman and had a child; has to "come to terms" (in an effect) with his interest in a male PC

Zev - hits on almost every attractive woman that he has dialogue options and only mentions two males that he's ever been with (one of which, Taliesan, was only hinted at)

Anders - makes numerous comments about females in DA: A (to the point that people still insist that he was straight) and only mentions one male lover (and only to male PCs)

Kaidan - is not even romanceable to male characters in the ME; when he is romanceable in ME3, he still makes several comments about asari (and none about guys)

Fenris - doesn't really show much attraction either way, but his only interest outside of Hawke is Isabela, who he sleeps with

 

It would be nice if Iron Bull either shows a preference for guys or shows an equal preference for guys.  There's definitely a trend where the bisexual males skew in favor of straight gals.  I get it to a degree; we have to "share" these guys with the straight gals, but it would still be nice if one of the guys liked us a little bit more (or even) for variety's sake.

[Maria Caliban]

Just out of curiosity, if someone said "I don't like my 2 romance options, I want to romance Vivienne, why didn't you make her romancable, or why didn't you give more more options to my liking?", does it really matter whether the complainer is a man or a woman? Does being one gender or the other make the exact same complaint any more or less valid, or can the complaint itself stand or fail on it's on merit?

Sure, there are lots of people (of both genders) who want to romance Vivienne. I don't consider the complaint you've written particularly valid, but it has nothing to do with whether the person making it is male or female.

Generally the problem is that instead of saying, "Vivienne is awesome, I wanted to romance her," someone says, "Cassandra is man-face, I want to romance a real woman like Vivienne." I recall a twenty-four hour period where five different threads were made about the characters all being ugly/unattractive and that if the thread starter didn't get to romance their preferred LI with their preferred gender, BioWare was horrible.
 

I'm not sure if it's the same with the bisexual females, because I've only romanced a few of them (Liara, Leliana, Kelly), but there is a definite skew towards females in the bisexual male characters...

Leliana seems to skew towards women. Silk Fox is odd as the dialogue she uses to suggest romance with the female LI seems to position her as a lesbian; it's basically 'Men are icky and I'd hate to ever hook up with one.' Every other line of dialogue is the same though.

The rest are neutral.

I have no idea what's up with bi men in BioWare games.

[Ina]

I'm not sure if it's the same with the bisexual females, because I've only romanced a few of them (Liara, Leliana, Kelly), but there is a definite skew towards females in the bisexual male characters:

 

Well the only bi females I've romances with a female PC are Leliana and Merril, and there was nothing there that I noticed as a definite skew towards the opp gender. Merril, much like Fenris, reveals little about her preference. With Leliana, at least it's fairly obvious she had a female past lover but I don't seem to remember if she explicitly reveals that to a male PC. 

 

Regarding Zevran, I agree it was grating. I did romance him as a male PC and even though I'm not a gay/bi male myself it was really uncomfortable just how many times he mentioned his preference. I ended up wondering a couple of times if I was just better off going with a female PC. In the end though I was able see past that to enjoy the romance and forgive that aspect, but the problem continues into DA2 though I thought it was less problematic there.

 

You're right, it does appear that bi men are skewed more than bi women. One day, I want to romance a bi LI with the opp gender and be told they prefer their own gender or at the least see some ss flirting between bi companions. It would be nice if Josephine or IB show a same sex preference or get involved with one if the PC isn't romancing them.

[Ryzaki]

I personally don't get why anyone would tell their partner they prefer the opposite gender (of the partner's I mean) rather than their partner's gender either true or not I mean...maybe I'm secretive I don't know. I just seems as if that'd be awkward. It feels awkward in BW games anyway.

[CuriousArtemis]

Actually for the poster you quoted Shinian I don't think he is saying that at all. He's been pretty supportive of pretty much every group and it's not fair to assume an attitude that he hasn't demonstrated when in fact he's shown the opposite time and again. Let's not try and turn LGBT allies against LGBT people please.

As it happens I agree that the companions in DA2 were shallow in a lot of ways basically more evidence the game was rushed and therefore under-developed and content was simplified and limited in areas including deep character development for the companions. Fenris, Anders and Merril are all narrowly developed around one goal and except for banter about their broodiness or lack of surroundings awareness for Merril show little interest in anything else over the ten year time period (unless you romance them perhaps... I never have so I can't say for sure) and the main reason I feel I know Isabella better is because of a brief cameo in DAO that had established for me coming in that she would be a bi duelist who liked sex and cheating at cards... all of which describes her in DA2 as well oddly enough. I like Isabella and I always romance Isabella... her banter is fun as is Varric's and those two have great banters with Aveline too which is why I often bring those three along.

But all of the characters could have done with more time and development regardless of how much I enjoy what's there. Or more accurately because of what's there... there are glimpses of really interesting characters and the banters are great which is why I would have liked more depth for them.

*shrugs* it's your opinion so okay. But that doesn't make it true. I loved the DA2 characters and don't find them any less well-written than the DAO characters. In fact Fenris and Isabela are my two all time favorite characters. That's my opinion, and it isn't any truer than yours. Both opinions are off topic from the thread, which is about romances, and unrelated to what some people were saying: that the bisexuality of the DA2 characters made them "less deep." That's offensive as well as ridiculous.

EDIT: as to the poster, he was directly responding to Melca, who quoted my long post to say that making all DA2 characters bisexual made them less deep than DAI characters. He agreed with her.

[Ryzaki]

The DA2 cast for the most part didn't strike me as much more shallow than the DAO cast. They all had their hidden depths. DA2 just beat you over the head with it less.

[CuriousArtemis]

The DA2 cast for the most part didn't strike me as much more shallow than the DAO cast. They all had their hidden depths. DA2 just beat you over the head with it less.

It's the same people writing them, so the quality is still there in both games. The writers are actually a little more experienced by DA2, so perhaps that's why I enjoy those characters more. DAO had some definite tropes that had me rolling my eyes... Specifically the "ice queen" romance and the bed-hopping bisexual raised in a brothel.

[Ryzaki]

It's the same people writing them, so the quality is still there in both games. The writers are actually a little more experienced by DA2, so perhaps that's why I enjoy those characters more. DAO had some definite tropes that had me rolling my eyes... Specifically the "ice queen" romance and the bed-hopping bisexual raised in a brothel.

 

True. And yeah DAO had some doozies of moments. (Oghren was a good example of an utterly broken person. But it was so annoying that I had get him to sober up by bringing up his approval with drinks )