494 réponses à ce sujet

[OptionFour]

Yeah, I definitely did not intend to imply that all straight guys have told gay and lesbian players to just deal with it.  That's 100% inaccurate and I recognize that without question. 

 

The reason why I use "bonus" (in quotes, you'll notice) is because that's how they were rolled out by Bioware.  There were "core" romances and "bonus" romances.  To me, they are all just romances. 

 

I agree that they're all just romances. Especially since we knew about (almost) all of them before any talk of some being 'bonus' romances ever came up, ya know? We're still paying for them, they've had the same effort put into them, and at the end of the day the development time has nothing to do with whether a choice was made to make a character gay, straight, bi, or something else entirely. Its irrelevant to the issue that's being discussed.

I think you and I are mostly in agreement. I just think that there have been some startlingly snide, bitter responses from certain corners. To those of us who have supported the inclusion of LGB content the answer of 'hey, just suck it up' is a bitter pill. Never fun to find out that the people whose back you have do not return the favour.

Granted, it doesn't change my mind about LGB content at all.

 

Guess its just a case of jerks being jerks.

[They call me a SpaceCowboy]

I can only speak for me personally, but I definitely don't have any schadenfreude going on with my thoughts.  I am disappointed that Bioware had a chance to make it even and chose not to.  They have their reasons and they are devs so I respect that this is their right, but it doesn't lessen my disappointment.

 

That being said, since it has to be uneven, I would prefer if the group getting "bonus" content was not the group(s) that almost always get the "bonus" content.  It would be nice to see that "bonus content" (given that it's just a "bonus", right?) spread around a bit.  However, it seems like that is a pipe dream on my end at this point.

 

I think there is a fundamental difference between a majority group not getting majority options in a small number of cases versus a minority group not getting majority options in any cases.  Those are not really comparable situations, yet many people in the majority (in this case, straight guys) immediately make the comparison as soon as they are not receiving majority options.  I think that this is where the frustration lies that I think you (and other guys) are picking up on.  It's very frustrating to be told for years by the majority to just deal with it and be happy with any representation that I receive and then be told by members of that very same demographic that being treated the same as me is "unfair".  To me, that's where the hypocrisy lies. 

 

All that being said, if there are any LGB forum members who are actively reveling in the misfortune of "straight guys" because they are complaining about their options, well those LGB forumites are wrong, in my opinion. 

 

 

I like your post here. The only quibble is that, to take myself as an example, I'm not playing other games where I get a bonus. Games that pander to my gender and sexuality are entirely off my radar, with the exception of recent Bioware games (I'm looking at you Mass Effect). Most of the RPG games I play have no romance content at all, many have no gender specified at all, or let you create a party of male or female fighters. Either that or strategy games like Civilization.

 

Straight guys are not one massive blob of experience who all benefit the same way from the same things, any more than anyone else is. There are some straight guys who have maybe only ever played games like Wow, for instance, which, as far as I know, have no gender preference built into the game at all. This guy comes here and says 'hey I don't like my options' and he gets responses like ' you are pandered to all the time'. He'd be going Uhh when was I pandered to? WoW had no romances built in.

[daveliam]

Guess its just a case of jerks being jerks.

 

I guess it's just proof that there are jerks of every type.  Straight jerks, bisexual jerks, and gay jerks.

[They call me a SpaceCowboy]

Muh....I'm just happy I'm getting to be 1) A female and 2) A lesbian romance . CAN YOU BELIEVE IT ?!?!?  (yes still in shock) 

a side note: So are those who claim 'the straight gamer are the one who fund the majoritee of Bioware income and therefor that alone should give them privilege over everyone else' . 

 

If anyone said that, then yes they are idiots

[RevilFox]

Yes but the life experiences only have meaning if they are show in game, other wise it is just like DA 2.

I don't understand what you mean by this. 

 

As an example, Anders had a homosexual experience with Karl when he was at the Ferelden Circle. This was never brought up in DAA, but was still part of his life experience. In DAA, Anders mostly seemed interested in women and not with men. The reason for this could be due to his experience with Karl still being fresh to him. Hence his life experience, which you never once heard about in DAA, would have colored how he acted in DAA.

 

There are tons of things that we, the player, are never privy to in game. Or even in Novels. A lot of time something happened in a characters past that is never once brought up or discussed, but is still a thing that happened and colors the reason that characters acts a specific way in a specific situation. Writers, for video games or otherwise, do this all the time.

[OptionFour]

I guess it's just proof that there are jerks of every type.  Straight jerks, bisexual jerks, and gay jerks.

 

And so we marked this spot, and named it Common Ground.

 

Shame that its mostly a ******. (Annnd that was my awful joke for the day.)

[They call me a SpaceCowboy]

Yes but the life experiences only have meaning if they are show in game, other wise it is just like DA 2.

My problem with games that allow only the player to be other things than straight, is that you seem the only one in the world with that orientation. I really do not remember, without the character being Isabela?(no sure if valid because she only flirts with Zevran and Fenris) or Leliana?(not sure if that counts because her past with Majory seems a little ambiguous and only the DLC show more of that) the companions and npcs being other than straight. Even in DA 2 with a lot of bisexuals all the companions seems to be attract to a different gender. 

 

Good point.

 

Isabela does tell Bethany about how to 'please a woman', or somethign along those line.s I'll say one good thing about DA2, the banter was fun

[daveliam]

I like your post here. The only quibble is that, to take myself as an example, I'm not playing other games where I get a bonus. Games that pander to my gender and sexuality are entirely off my radar, with the exception of recent Bioware games (I'm looking at you Mass Effect). Most of the RPG games I play have no romance content at all, many have no gender specified at all, or let you create a party of male or female fighters. Either that or strategy games like Civilization.

 

Straight guys are not one massive blob of experience who all benefit the same way from the same things, any more than anyone else is. There are some straight guys who have maybe only ever played games like Wow, for instance, which, as far as I know, have no gender preference built into the game at all. This guy comes here and says 'hey I don't like my options' and he gets responses like ' you are pandered to all the time'. He'd be going Uhh when was I pandered to? WoW had no romances built in.

 

I think that RPGs with romance pretty much do offer almost exclusively straight content.  Look at games like Bound by Flame and Alpha Protocol.  Both games have only straight romances and Alpha Protocol has just options for straight men.  The only exception that I can I think of is Bioware games and even those are really skewed.  Until DA 2, I had a whopping two options EVER.  I'm not exaggerating.  I had Sky in JE and Zev in DA: O.  Until just the last DA game.  During that same time, there were 16 options for straight guys.  Look at SWTOR:  Eighteen romances and they are all straight.

I think that this is the context that people are talking about when they make statements about straight guys getting a ton of options in the past.

 

Note, I'm not counting games like Skyrim or Fable where the "romance" content is totally unscripted and just is a game mechanism.

[They call me a SpaceCowboy]

I think that RPGs with romance pretty much do offer almost exclusively straight content.  Look at games like Bound by Flame and Alpha Protocol.  Both games have only straight romances and Alpha Protocol The only exception that I can I think of is Bioware games

 

Sure, but I was saying I don't play those. Are they console only? Maybe consoles have more of that kind of game? I'm a PC player.

[daveliam]

Sure, but I was saying I don't play those. Are they console only? Maybe consoles have more of that kind of game? I'm a PC player.

 

Sorry that post was incomplete when it got posted.  It's now been edited so it's accurate.

 

My point to your point is that just because you personally don't play those games doesn't mean that they are irrelevant, right?  That would be like if I only played SWTOR.  Would it be fair for me to say:  "BIoware offers NO gay romances"?  It would be accurate if I was only using my own experience as a player, but it doesn't mean that the statement is true.

[They call me a SpaceCowboy]

Sorry that post was incomplete when it got posted.  It's now been edited so it's accurate.

 

My point to your point is that just because you personally don't play those games doesn't mean that they are irrelevant, right?  That would be like if I only played SWTOR.  Would it be fair for me to say:  "BIoware offers NO gay romances"?  It would be accurate if I was only using my own experience as a player, but it doesn't mean that the statement is true.

 

Apparently SWTOR has a gay romance now. if you are level 55.. and own the expansion.. and like romances that are literally one cutscene.. um, yeah. lol.

 

 

Perhaps we are missing each others points? Yes those games exist and are relevant, to those who have played them and enjoyed their romances. (Also, please keep in mind my opinion as stated in previous posts on this topic. I'm fine with the romances in this game, just playing devils advocate)

 

What I meant was leveling an accusation (and I'm not saying YOU did this) like "You are being hypocritical, you get all the options in every other game" doesn't much to an individual who has never played those games and never experienced that content. It just seems a little unfair to accuse someone of receiving a benefit that they have never received, and then calling them hypocritical or selfish based on that.

 

To reference your post directly, there is no unified 'group' that has received benefits in other games. Everyone's experience is different.

 

Finally, and on the other hand, most of the straight guys who are complaining about romances are doing so based on their direct experience with past Dragon Age games, so yes I agree that they are in the wrong absolutely.

[Uirebhiril]

Finally, and on the other hand, most of the straight guys who are complaining about romances are doing so based on their direct experience with past Dragon Age games, so yes I agree that they are in the wrong absolutely.

 

It makes me wonder if there would be as much complaining if Cassandra had flowing locks, conventionally beautiful face, and was "cute" rather than a combat veteran. Or if Josephine looked like an exotically beautiful princess instead of looking more or less average/normal. Or if Sera were an option for straight guys. Are people complaining because they only have two choices, or because a lot of guys just don't want the "piece of garbage" "ugly" companions?

[They call me a SpaceCowboy]

It makes me wonder if there would be as much complaining if Cassandra had flowing locks, conventionally beautiful face, and was "cute" rather than a combat veteran. Or if Josephine looked like an exotically beautiful princess instead of looking more or less average/normal. Or if Sera were an option for straight guys. Are people complaining because they only have two choices, or because a lot of guys just don't want the "piece of garbage" "ugly" companions?

 

Presumably each individual is complaining for different reasons. Undoubtedly though, if Cassandra was prettier there would be fewer complaints.

 

I'm not getting all the fuss about her alleged personality from those who haven't played the game yet though. And as a 50 year old, I'm not getting the 'too old' comments either. lol

[Nefla]

If you are going to bother replying to me, could you at least respond to what I actually wrote?

 

my scenario was "I don't like the 2 options I have I'd prefer another who isn't available." This has nothing to do with either possible respondent being favoured.

 

As for what you've wrote, yes there have been a few straight males making threads complaining about their options. If you think it's more than non 'straight males'  complaining about their options then I suggest confirmation bias is in play. The 'non straight males' have just been confining their complaints to already existing threads rather than opening new ones constantly.

I think the gender and orientation of the asker matters and I gave you context as to why. I see you weren't curious about my answer at all and just wanted to argue.

 

Apology accepted. Its just that I'm tired of seeing that kind of thing, too. Very tired.

 

That said, if it were any other group that had been left holding the short end of the stick, no one would get so up in arms about their complaints. Your argument of 'straight males are usually favoured, so this time it doesn't matter' . . . well, I do hear what you're saying. But consider what that sounds like to a straight male. You're saying "You can get that content elsewhere". Which just makes me think "You know, you're right. I can get that elsewhere - maybe one of those other places is where I'll spend my money instead."

 

Granted, its not a serious issue for me personally, and I hadn't made up my mind about buying the game one way or the other anyway. The hypocrisy sucks, though. I'm on board with more romance options for any group that's holding the short end of the stick. In this case that include straight males. Why is it now suddenly not okay to want options for people?

Feels like there is a fair touch of schadenfreude going on with this issue some days. Its unsettling, and I hope I'm wrong.

I think we're all getting somewhat short and riled up, it feels like it's been a really long wait.

 

As for the "I'll take my money elsewhere" idea, does that mean that straight women, lesbians, and gay men shouldn't buy 90% of the games out there? Here's an analogy to express where I was going: When the candy is passed out, one specific kid ALWAYS gets the most candy. Sometimes a little more, sometimes twice as much as the other kids, sometimes the other kids don't get any at all but in every case the first kid always gets more. One day every kid gets some candy and some random other kid gets a bonus. This is the first and only time this has happened. The first kid is still getting the same amount of candy he got before but now that someone else gets a turn at having a bonus, he is upset and unsatisfied and still wants to have the most despite having the same amount he always had. It seems very spoiled to me. 

 

Straight guys had 2 options in DA:O, straight guys had 2 options in DA2, straight guys have 2 options in DA:I. BioWare isn't suddenly sticking it to the straight man, he has the same number of romances he always had. We hardly know anything about the companions and have not met or talked to them, It's impossible to tell if we would like them or not. From the day BioWare decided on a cast of mostly male characters it was certain that any bonus romances would be male. (though I think one should have been gay or one or both bisexual) Again I am sorry for lumping the OP in with all the loud obnoxious people who regularly rage about this kind of thing, it was undeserved.

[Lennard Testarossa]

It makes me wonder if there would be as much complaining if Cassandra had flowing locks, conventionally beautiful face, and was "cute" rather than a combat veteran. Or if Josephine looked like an exotically beautiful princess instead of looking more or less average/normal. Or if Sera were an option for straight guys. Are people complaining because they only have two choices, or because a lot of guys just don't want the "piece of garbage" "ugly" companions?

 

I'd argue that it's more about her specific design rather than her type. There is a large number of people who found her attractive in DA2 and don't find her attractive now. (I am part of that group.)

 

I don't mind combat veteran-type girls, short hair or scars. Some people say that those are indeed the reasons they find her unattractive, but I think they are probably incorrect, meaning that they find her unattractive, then look for reasons for why that is the case and end up incorrectly projecting their feelings on things like short hair or scars.

 

The 'problem' (if you will) is with her bone structure, eye + eyebrow placement, etc.. There's just something 'off' about her face. It's almost uncanny valley material. Luckily, this kind of thing should be easily fixable by a mod.

[OptionFour]

I think the gender and orientation of the asker matters and I gave you context as to why. I see you weren't curious about my answer at all and just wanted to argue.

 

I think we're all getting somewhat short and riled up, it feels like it's been a really long wait.

 

As for the "I'll take my money elsewhere" idea, does that mean that straight women, lesbians, and gay men shouldn't buy 90% of the games out there? Here's an analogy to express where I was going: When the candy is passed out, one specific kid ALWAYS gets the most candy. Sometimes a little more, sometimes twice as much as the other kids, sometimes the other kids don't get any at all but in every case the first kid always gets more. One day every kid gets some candy and some random other kid gets a bonus. This is the first and only time this has happened. The first kid is still getting the same amount of candy he got before but now that someone else gets a turn at having a bonus, he is upset and unsatisfied and still wants to have the most despite having the same amount he always had. It seems very spoiled to me. 

 

Straight guys had 2 options in DA:O, straight guys had 2 options in DA2, straight guys have 2 options in DA:I. BioWare isn't suddenly sticking it to the straight man, he has the same number of romances he always had. We hardly know anything about the companions and have not met or talked to them, It's impossible to tell if we would like them or not. From the day BioWare decided on a cast of mostly male characters it was certain that any bonus romances would be male. (though I think one should have been gay or one or both bisexual) Again I am sorry for lumping the OP in with all the loud obnoxious people who regularly rage about this kind of thing, it was undeserved.

 

Actually, I kinda feel like this is the best discussion I've seen on the forums about this topic, since there are a number of us being open about it and all the name-calling has pretty much ceased. So that's pretty cool.

 

As to your other points, I'm going to respond in two sections if I may.

 

The first point is that I am glad that other people are getting content they want. But at the end of the day, it means absolutely nothing to me in regards to my own financial decision about what games to get or not get; for that I look at what content I would personally get for my own cash. To use your own analogy, if I know that if I go out with Kid A I am definitely going to get less candy than him for the same amount of effort, why would I do that when I can - in effect - go to another neighbourhood and get my candy there? Especially if they're giving me more candy for my effort? Its not about anyone being 'spoiled' - I don't owe BioWare my money or loyalty, nor any other company. They want me to buy their game? They need to make me believe that its worth my money.

When people say "You can get that content you want elsewhere", that says to me that maybe my money is, indeed, better spent elsewhere.

That is why its a toxic argument to make. And please, let's remember - there are no bonuses. We all pay for all the content, which means its all the same.

 

The other part of my answer is that this 'you've always had 2 options' thing . . . its a skewed reasoning. In every other way, games over the years have grown in content. I think you get a more honest answer if you look at things this way . . . (forgive me if my numbers are a touch off, I haven't played any of the DA games in quite some time)

In DA:O there were four romance options, and two of them were available to straight men. That's fifty percent.

In DA 2 almost everyone was bisexual (was Sebastien? I can't recall, I didn't care for him much.) which means that straight males had two of five romances, which is fourty percent.

In DA:I, we get two romances of a potential eight. That's a fairly tiny twenty-five percent of the options being open to us.

You see, the games are getting bigger - they aren't stagnant. Our 2 options represents a proportionally much smaller number of options relative to the greater picture than it did in the other games.

[BartDude52]

Please, for the love of God, stop using the 'you've always had two options' argument as some sort of justification for straight males not having more than two romance options. As I've mentioned in a previous post, yes, we had two options to choose from in both Origins and DA2, but in both of those games there were only four characters that could be romanced, so having two options was fine; in Inquisition there are eight characters that can be romanced yet we still only have two options. An increase of even just one isn't too much to ask for when you consider that pretty much everyone else has had their number of romance options increased from what they were in Origins and/or DA2 except for us. If you disagree with me, fine, but please don't use the 'you've always had two options' argument as it's so bloody asinine.

[BartDude52]

@OptionFour: I can't help but agree with you there - very well put argument. Kudos.

[Ryzaki]

Please, for the love of God, stop using the 'you've always had two options' argument as some sort of justification for straight males not having more than two romance options. As I've mentioned in a previous post, yes, we had two options to choose from in both Origins and DA2, but in both of those games there were only four characters that could be romanced, so having two options was fine; in Inquisition there are eight characters that can be romanced yet we still only have two options. An increase of even just one isn't too much to ask for when you consider that pretty much everyone else has had their number of romance options increased from what they were in Origins and/or DA2 except for us. If you disagree with me, fine, but please don't use the 'you've always had two options' argument as it's so bloody asinine.

 

*This is for straight relationships only (is for the s/s romances)

 

There were four options in Baldur's Gate. Females got 1. Males got 3.

 

There were 3 options in Jade Empire. Males got 2. Females got 1. Males got a bonus threesome option. (Gay males and lesbians got 1)

 

There were 3 options in Mass Effect 1. Males got 2. Females got 1. (Lesbians got 1)

 

There were 4 options in Dragon Age. Males got 2. Females got 2. (lesbians and gay men got 1)

 

There were 4 options in Dragon Age 2 and Sebastian. Males got 2. Females got 3.  (Lesbians and Gay Men got 2. )

 

There are 8 options in Dragon Age Inquisition. Males got 2. Females got 4.  (Lesbians got 2, Gay men got 2).

 

Also everyone does not have increased options from DA2 except for straight males. Lesbians and gay males have the same amount you have. 2. The same amount they did in DA2.

 

I'm supposed to be playing a sad violin? That you have more than one choice even if it's less than the amount females have? There were games where males had 3x the amount that everyone else got. And everyone else got a whooping one choice. Yes for a change m/f players got the same amount of options as  m/m and f/f players. Ra. FORBID.

 

Also if we're using the money argument. I paid full price for JE and got a mere 1/3rd of it's potential romances for my femPC. You can live with having 2 options. And hell my FemPC didn't even have an LI choice between two people. If she wanted a f/m romance it was Sky or she could use her hands. Not to mention s/s romance players that have always gotten a minimal amount of LIs at best. They paid just as much for the game as the rest of us. Saying you would like more options next game? Fine whatever. Acting like it's some grave injustice someone other than you got more romances for a change? ****** please.

[AresKeith]

Again, because you seem to think that bisexuals are only able to romance other bisexuals.  Straight men have two options (Cassandra and Josephine), just like everyone else with the exception of straight females.  You don't have "almost nothing" because you have two options, which coincidentally is the same amount of options that you had in the last two DA games as well.

 

After seeing some of his past posts and the ones in this thread, I almost certain he's just a troll

[OptionFour]

 

Also if we're using the money argument. I paid full price for JE and got a mere 1/3rd of it's potential romances for my femPC. You can live with having 2 options. And hell my FemPC didn't even have an LI choice between two people. If she wanted a f/m romance it was Sky or she could use her hands. Not to mention s/s romance players that have always gotten a minimal amount of LIs at best. They paid just as much for the game as the rest of us. Saying you would like more options next game? Fine whatever. Acting like it's some grave injustice someone other than you got more romances for a change? ****** please.

 

You made the choice to buy the game. Don't try to hold others accountable for that.

Your vitriol is unnecessary and detracts from any point you might have. It adds nothing to the conversation. I believe I addressed most of your point, for my part, above this already in my previous post. If you'd like to talk more about this then I'd be happy to, yeah? But not when you're hurling insults and tainting what has, for a few pages now, been a pretty civil discussion. I get that people get passionate about this, and that's understandable. However, I'm not going to engage someone who is bringing bad manners to a table where, for the first time that I've seen at least, everyone is being fairly decent and open to discussion.

[Ryzaki]

You made the choice to buy the game. Don't try to hold others accountable for that.

 

Then you can do the same with DAI instead of complaining about what's already done no? The romances are done it's a few weeks before gold and the devs are not going to remove the female exclusive romances nor put in more romances for males. Either you'll buy the game with 2 options for straight males or you won't. There's no need for any "I don't want to pay 60 dollars for 25% of the romances." complaints in this scenario.

 

If you were discussing wishes for a future game...then by all means. But that's not what I'm seeing in your posts.

[AlexiaRevan]

 

You made the choice to buy the game. Don't try to hold others accountable for that.

And those who are unhappy with the number of romances they are getting , could too just not the game aye ? 

[OptionFour]

Then you can do the same with DAI instead of complaining about what's already done no? The romances are done it's a few weeks before gold and the devs are not going to remove the female exclusive romances nor put in more romances for males. Either you'll buy the game with 2 options for straight males or you won't. There's no need for any "I don't want to pay 60 dollars for 25% of the romances." complaints in this scenario.

 

If you were discussing wishes for a future game...then by all means. But that's not what I'm seeing in your posts.

 

Did you read my posts?

I think you're seeing a combative stance where there isn't one. I'm not upset about the number of romances - I'm irritated at the attitude of some people who seem to be enjoying the fact that straight males are unhappy. I personally think there's room for everyone to be happy. Except those who are attacking others for no reason, maybe.

 

Ultimately, this thread is about this discussion. If can't stomach people talking about their feelings on the matter in a largely civil way then I don't know what to tell you.

 

Edit:

I'm also editing to add that I never, ever wished content removed for anyone else. Nor would I ever.

I'm beginning to think you merely skimmed my posts and did not actually grasp anything I was saying.

[OptionFour]

And those who are unhappy with the number of romances they are getting , could too just not the game aye ? 

 

Please read my posts before responding to them.

I did indeed suggest that people who were truly upset about this consider if maybe their money wouldn't be better spent elsewhere. Also, I myself am not upset.