76 réponses à ce sujet

[thats1evildude]

I found Brother Burkel to be a rather nice chap. I intentionally failed his quest, though, so as not to get him killed.

[PsychoBlonde]

Eh, it's the problem of religious freedom.

Religious freedom to believe one way means you have to allow someone to believe another.

So I let him have his prayer service.

Everything else is out of the Warden's hands.

This is pretty much exactly my stance on the matter.  You say you want some rope?  All right, you're an adult, have your rope.  If you hang yourself with it, that's your business.

[Icy Magebane]

This is pretty much exactly my stance on the matter.  You say you want some rope?  All right, you're an adult, have your rope.  If you hang yourself with it, that's your business.

I don't see how it's the Warden's place to interfere in Orzammar's religion... unless they have some specific, Chantry-related agenda in mind, or Burkel was paying exceedingly well for the Warden's aid, there is no reason to get involved.  Seems like stirring up trouble just for the sake of causing conflict.

[LadyMacTir]

Haha no I told him to go **** himself. He reminds me to much of christians.


Side note: how is christians spelled wrong?!? Stupid phone!

 

Not all Christians are fanatics, and some may have even a bigger heart than people without faith. There is no reason to hate them all / or the Andrastians because of what they believe in.

 

As for Brother Burkel, I liked him too. My dwarven warrior lady will believe in the Maker.

[Willowhugger]

I don't see how it's the Warden's place to interfere in Orzammar's religion... unless they have some specific, Chantry-related agenda in mind, or Burkel was paying exceedingly well for the Warden's aid, there is no reason to get involved.  Seems like stirring up trouble just for the sake of causing conflict.

 

Well, the Warden interferes in just about everything else he encounters from two Dalish lovers to smuggling lyrium.

Holding a church service for consenting rationale adults and their families shouldn't be the major snafu it turns into.

[Askanison666]

Well, the Warden interferes in just about everything else he encounters from two Dalish lovers to smuggling lyrium.

Holding a church service between consenting rationale adults shouldn't be the major snafu it turns into.

 

I had my persuasion maxed out and always got loads of gold for the lyrium smuggling! Which is...wrong o_O Yes....wrong...you can totally see how wrong it is if you look in my coin bag.

[Mabari-Master]

Personally I never helped Burkel. I hate the Chantry and don't want its influence spreading or give them even more cause for an Exalted March on the dwarves. And Burkel's just like any other Chantry servant, a pretentious, holy-than-though suck-up, who arrogantly looks down on anyone with different beliefs. If I had my way I'd have my dwarven Warden slap this guy silly for thinking that their people were ignorant heathens.

[Willowhugger]

Personally I never helped Burkel. I hate the Chantry and don't want its influence spreading or give them even more cause for an Exalted March on the dwarves. And Burkel's just like any other Chantry servant, a pretentious, holy-than-though suck-up, who arrogantly looks down on anyone with different beliefs. If I had my way I'd have my dwarven Warden slap this guy silly for thinking that their people were ignorant heathens.

 

And you know, feeding a woman and her infant dying in the street when no one else will.

 

I will say that was an awkward conversation for my Mage.

 

Mage: So, you want me to help you with spreading the Chant?

Burkel: Yep! To help the sick, weary, and poor!

Mage: Y.....fine.

He felt similarly weird helping the Alienage Templar.

[Ieldra]

Oh right, because when mages are killed by templars, oh that annulment was an injustice.

 

Chantry officials murdered during peaceful protest though?

 

...Oh that's fine.

 

Bloody hypocrites.

His quest was about establishing a Chantry chapter in Orzammar, not about murdered officials. I don't see why I would want to help with that, or why you're calling me a hypocrite for refusing.

 

Edit:

If this was about the epilogue (which was totally off my radar tbh), then that calls for an investigation, not an invasion. Exalted Marches are just excuses for forced conversions.

[Icy Magebane]

Well, the Warden interferes in just about everything else he encounters from two Dalish lovers to smuggling lyrium.

Holding a church service for consenting rationale adults and their families shouldn't be the major snafu it turns into.

There isn't really a good reason to interfere in Camen and Gheyna's affair, especially not if you are playing a Dalish who respects tradtion.  I guess you might do it to feel warm and tingly inside, but it's not like the guy is offering payment.  However, the lyrium dealer was paying outrageously well.    It would be hard for even my most self-righteous Wardens to pass on that kind of opportunity... fighting Darkspawn costs money, you know?  Players are free to interfere in Orzammar's religion if they want to, but I only see a few ways where it can be justified.  Wanting to cause problems or shake things up is a legitimate reason, of course, but I don't believe it is a noble one.

 

As for the fallout... considering how rigid the caste system is, I think it's fair to assume that things won't work out well for Burkel.  Although I will admit I didn't predict that outcome during my first playthrough...

[Willowhugger]

On my end, I just think it was a favor for a dude in the street who asked me to do it. It took about two minutes out of the Warden's time and he was going to the Shaperate anyway.

 

Now, admittedly, it does get out of hand...

 

But while the Dalish Elf might not like it and Chantry-dislikers have a reason against it. There's both Chantry-supporters and those who simply think Burkel is a harmless guy who they can help.

 

The larger politics are probably not a concern for most characters.

[Magdalena11]

I help Brother Burkel or not depending on which warden I'm playing.  I do think there's something wrong about forcing a religion on people who don't want it and don't need it, but what harm does it do to offer a choice if the deity you've been brought up to respect doesn't respect you in return?  Is an absent Maker any different?  For dwarf noble wardens, there's no reason to change.  For dwarf commoners, maybe there is a reason.  For non-dwarves, metagaming for the mild XP bonus and quest completion, there might be motivation as well.  Chantry enthusiasts will see converting Orzammar to the Maker as their duty.  Iconoclasts will see the destruction of religious mind control as a good thing no matter what.  People who have had their faith challenged and achieved something approximating a personal belief system will find this a deep and meaningful topic for further discussion and draw their own conclusions and not be bothered by any amount of ranting.  Where does this leave the individual gamer?  If you're still asking, I'd say go out and find something that fits.  It's not like there's a lack of options.  For me, D=none of the above.

[Willowhugger]

Yeah, it's kind of the oddity of Brother Burkel.

The Chantry is an oppressive and ever-present force everywhere in Thedas.

But it's a disliked almost-outlawed religion in Orzamaar.

 

So the side of the underdog is the Chant for once.

[The Ascendant]

I hope he does pop up, The Dwarves like every race need the Maker.

Yes let's worship a god who abandoned his responsibility twice and committed adultery with a married woman who he let die. The Qun alone brings enlightenment

[Mabari-Master]

Here's a question: how the hell did Burkel lean about the Chant of Light to begin with? If he learned about it on the surface than he'd be castles and there'd be no way he'd be permitted in the merchant's quarter. Did someone teach it to him?

[Willowhugger]

Yes let's worship a god who abandoned his responsibility twice and committed adultery with a married woman who he let die. The Qun alone brings enlightenment

To be fair, I don't think Andraste's marriage to the Maker happened until her husband arranged for her to be burned alive.

 

I think that qualifies as divorcable terms amongst the early Fereldans.

 

Here's a question: how the hell did Burkel lean about the Chant of Light to begin with? If he learned about it on the surface than he'd be castles and there'd be no way he'd be permitted in the merchant's quarter. Did someone teach it to him?

 

Well there's casteless and there's Casteless.

 

Surface Dwarves are casteless but seem to be treated differently than "spit on them when you walk by" Casteless.

 

But given Brother Burkel is going to be preaching to the Casteless and helping them, I'm pretty sure that he's going to be an unpopular fellow with traditionalists either way.

 

I literally think the only reason Surface Dwarves (temporary casteless) get treated any better is because they have money, though. Also, self-respect.

[The Ascendant]

To be fair, I don't think Andraste's marriage to the Maker happened until her husband arranged for her to be burned alive.
 
I think that qualifies as divorcable terms amongst the early Fereldans.

I can just imagine it in a court case. That would make an interesting episode of the Good Wife.

[Mabari-Master]

Yes let's worship a god who abandoned his responsibility twice and committed adultery with a married woman who he let die. The Qun alone brings enlightenment

Why is it the Maker was only made known to the world by Andraste? Why isn't he mentioned in the Ancient Age by the elves or the Tevinters? The Old Gods and the Creators are older than the Maker and it's only during Andraste's time do the people even start thinking he might even exist, and who say he does? For all everyone knows Andraste was a schizophrenic and the Maker was her imaginary friend. And everyone is suppose to believe this?

[Willowhugger]

I can just imagine it in a court case. That would make an interesting episode of the Good Wife.

 

In another thread, I explained how someone might explain the Chant to a Dalish. "Well, after Andraste and the elves parted ways, her husband sent her to be burned alive by the Tevinter. Her kids took this poorly and banished their dad before making her a goddess. They also changed the chant so she hated elves, hated mages, and believed in enslaving other nations by the sword."

 

Why is it the Maker was only made known to the world by Andraste? Why isn't he mentioned in the Ancient Age by the elves of the Tevinters? The Old Gods and the Creators are older than the Maker and it's only during Andraste's time do the people even start thinking he might even exist, and who say he does? For all everyone knows Andraste was a schizophrenic and the Maker was her imaginary friend. And everyone is suppose to believe this?

The Maker does not operate to your time schedule!

 

But yes, part of why I love Dragon Age is religion isn't objectively true.

You have to take it on faith like in RL.

[Magdalena11]

Yes let's worship a god who abandoned his responsibility twice and committed adultery with a married woman who he let die. The Qun alone brings enlightenment

From a RP perspective, that works.  There is a reason new religions flourish among the dissatisfied.  Faith, with a capital despite its position in the sentence, works best if there's something to hope for.  In the Qun, everyone has a place that's set in the stars (or whatever) and they're to be allowed to live up to it.  It sounds really cool to someone who's battled their entire lives against preconceived ideas that make them less than everyone else.  What happens if, in the new system, they're still a disposable commodity (foot soldier)?  Where's the love then?  Does it go inward (maybe I could be more) or outward (anyone who thinks less is doomed to die a horrible death.)  People who want to have the answers to life, the universe and everything are going to have to make do with 42.

[The Ascendant]

Why is it the Maker was only made known to the world by Andraste? Why isn't he mentioned in the Ancient Age by the elves of the Tevinters? The Old Gods and the Creators are older than the Maker and it's only during Andraste's time do the people even start thinking he might even exist, and who say he does? For all everyone knows Andraste was a schizophrenic and the Maker was her imaginary friend. And everyone is suppose to believe this?

I know right? There is more evidence of Paragons and Ashkari Koslun than invisible all knowing 'gods'.

[A Clever Name]

Well, the Warden interferes in just about everything else he encounters from two Dalish lovers to smuggling lyrium.

Holding a church service for consenting rationale adults and their families shouldn't be the major snafu it turns into.

If you think about it from a rational perspective, yeah, it shouldn't develop into the veritable sh*tstorm it becomes.  But their caste system is, like you mentioned before, comparable to India's as set out in the Vedas - which, for all intents and purposes, was meant to function as a constitution if properly adhered to.  That system is as enduring and adaptable as Hinduism was during Islamic occupation.  Just because you bring in a new faith doesn't mean the culture built around the old ways will disappear.  So unfortunately it isn't as simple as that.  Wherever you go you're going to find people that will resist change, thus resulting in Brother Burkel's untimely demise.

 

In my canon playthrough of DA:O, my Andrastian Surana had more important things to do than help Burkel proselytize, so he's still alive.  I had a bad feeling about it but went ahead and assisted him on my Human Noble playthrough, and as I suspected, poor guy died.  ):  Just goes to show how people react in the worst ways when they feel their traditions are being threatened.

[Lavaeolus]

Haha no I told him to go **** himself. He reminds me to much of christians.


Side note: how is christians spelled wrong?!? Stupid phone!

For the record, it's because "Christians" has a capital C. Poor abused phone.

[Mabari-Master]

In another thread, I explained how someone might explain the Chant to a Dalish. "Well, after Andraste and the elves parted ways, her husband sent her to be burned alive by the Tevinter. Her kids took this poorly and banished their dad before making her a goddess. They also changed the chant so she hated elves, hated mages, and believed in enslaving other nations by the sword."

 

The Maker does not operate to your time schedule!

 

But yes, part of why I love Dragon Age is religion isn't objectively true.

You have to take it on faith like in RL.

I am merely pointing out the flaws in the Chantry's logic. I like playing characters in which I can just rub the Chantry's nose in the dirt.

 

They claim to a god only one person in all of history has seen! One that, by their own admission, turned his back on his creations. Three times!

 

That's why when I saw Burkel in Orzammar I wanted to laugh at him, or slap him depending on who my Warden was.

 

I'd rather pray to the Paragons or even the Old Gods because they've actually made their presence known through action not by the words and faith of burned barbarian woman.

[HK-90210]

Why is it the Maker was only made known to the world by Andraste? Why isn't he mentioned in the Ancient Age by the elves of the Tevinters? The Old Gods and the Creators are older than the Maker and it's only during Andraste's time do the people even start thinking he might even exist, and who say he does? For all everyone knows Andraste was a schizophrenic and the Maker was her imaginary friend. And everyone is suppose to believe this?

 

If the supposed greatest, most powerful nation in Thedas gets taken to school by a bunch of dog-obsessed barbarians following a new god, you're gonna at least be intrigued by what they have to say.

 

Frankly, it's not like the Old Gods are more legitimate just because they have been around longer. The average person doesn't know that. For all her knew, the Fereldens had been worshiping the Maker for a longer time than the Old Gods in Tevinter.

 

Besides, if you had been oppressed by mages your whole life, dealing with sacrifices and death by bloodmages on a regular basis, I think you'd listen to the strong, powerful army that comes along and says, "Hey, that's wrong, cause the Maker said so.".

 

Just like the Casteless, condemned to poverty and death by birth alone, might just consider the message that "Hey, you're no worse than those 'above' you in the eyes of the Maker" to be reassuing and helpful. Why anyone would want to take away a message of hope away from a group of people as helpless as the Casteless dwarves is beyond me. I guess I just don't hate religion that much.