76 réponses à ce sujet

[myahele]

I'm somewhat confused. Is Burkel a surfacer dwarf? Why would he be in Orzammar? Especially in the Diamond(?) District?

[CENIC]

My loyal Andrastian mage Warden helped him open a chantry (and later convinced him to take in Zerlinda and her casteless child)

 

I'd like it if the epilogue slide where he was martyred is retconned and he and his chantry survive, even under heavy opposition. I don't like it when organized religion is painted in absolutes in media. 

[Mabari-Master]

If the supposed greatest, most powerful nation in Thedas gets taken to school by a bunch of dog-obsessed barbarians following a new god, you're gonna at least be intrigued by what they have to say.

 

Frankly, it's not like the Old Gods are more legitimate just because they have been around longer. The average person doesn't know that. For all her knew, the Fereldens had been worshiping the Maker for a longer time than the Old Gods in Tevinter.

 

Besides, if you had been oppressed by mages your whole life, dealing with sacrifices and death by bloodmages on a regular basis, I think you'd listen to the strong, powerful army that comes along and says, "Hey, that's wrong, cause the Maker said so.".

 

Just like the Casteless, condemned to poverty and death by birth alone, might just consider the message that "Hey, you're no worse than those 'above' you in the eyes of the Maker" to be reassuing and helpful. Why anyone would want to take away a message of hope away from a group of people as helpless as the Casteless dwarves is beyond me. I guess I just don't hate religion that much.

That's fair to say, but why was it when Andraste needed the Maker the most he wasn't there? Anyone can claim their god gave them victory after the battle has bee won, but a true sign of diving intervention is seen during ones darkest hour and then their god brings the light.

 

It just seems so convenient that Maker turned his back on the world when his earthly bride was killed, even though he made no attempt to save her, even after all the victories she won in his name.

[Willowhugger]

I'd rather pray to the Paragons or even the Old Gods because they've actually made their presence known through action not by the words and faith of burned barbarian woman.

 

It's funny but my heavily-Andrastrian Mage disbelieved in the Urn of Sacred Ashes being a bunch of miracles and believed the place must have been constructed by Andrastrian mages.

It didn't fit his idea of the Maker that the Maker would make what amounted to a theme park of his wife's tomb.

[Kimarous]

I chose not to help Brother Burkel. Why? Because of this order of events:

 

1) enters Orzammar and sees opening struggle

2) heads straight to see faction leaders

3) hears Bhelen's crier announcing his intention to uplift the castless

4) immediately makes up mind to support Bhelen for the throne

5) meets Brother Burkel some time later

6) chooses not to support the building of a Chantry because the uplifting of the casteless would cause enough social upheaval without adding the introduction of a new religion to the mix as well

[Mabari-Master]

I chose not to help Brother Burkel. Why? Because of this order of events:

 

1) enters Orzammar and sees opening struggle

2) heads straight to see faction leaders

3) hears Bhelen's crier announcing his intention to uplift the castless

4) immediately makes up mind to support Bhelen for the throne

5) meets Brother Burkel some time later

6) chooses not to support the building of a Chantry because the uplifting of the casteless would cause enough social upheaval without adding the introduction of a new religion to the mix as well

Power to ya.

[Willowhugger]

That's fair to say, but why was it when Andraste needed the Maker the most he wasn't there? Anyone can claim their god gave them victory after the battle has bee won, but a true sign of diving intervention is seen during ones darkest hour and then their god brings the light.

 

It just seems so convenient that Maker turned his back on the world when his earthly bride was killed, even though he made no attempt to save her, even after all the victories she won in his name.

 

In Andraste's case, the Maker made her his bride so there's that.

It's why I also disliked the Urn as above.

It took away from the Maker to give him a tomb full of ghosts and pop psychology.

[Willowhugger]

I'm somewhat confused. Is Burkel a surfacer dwarf? Why would he be in Orzammar? Especially in the Diamond(?) District?

I think it's stated in his dialogue he was adopted by the Chantry so, presumably.

And he's in the Merchant Quarter in front of the Casteless District.

 

So presumably he lives there.

[NoForgiveness]

Not all Christians are fanatics, and some may have even a bigger heart than people without faith. There is no reason to hate them all / or the Andrastians because of what they believe in.

 

As for Brother Burkel, I liked him too. My dwarven warrior lady will believe in the Maker.

 

I know perfectly well that some can be and are nice people but when they try to push their religion on a group of people with a different belief while calling that belief a load of ****... ya that kind of stuff gets big disapproval from me.

[HK-90210]

That's fair to say, but why was it when Andraste needed the Maker the most he wasn't there? Anyone can claim their god gave them victory after the battle has bee won, but a true sign of diving intervention is seen during ones darkest hour and then their god brings the light.

 

It just seems so convenient that Maker turned his back on the world when his earthly bride was killed, even though he made no attempt to save her, even after all the victories she won in his name.

 

Would Andraste's message have spread as fast if she hadn't been martyred? Would Archon Hessarian been converted if the Maker had come down and whisked Andraste away? Besides, the Maker wanted Andraste by His side from the start. Once she dies, He gets what He wanted.

 

If you believe that the Maker is more benevolent and loving, as Leliana does, then the best thing for the Chant was that Andraste died. It was important that the people not worship Andraste, but the Maker. If you believe the Maker is really just a selfish ******, then it makes sense that he would let Andraste dies so she could come be by His side.

[Mabari-Master]

I know perfectly well that some can be and are nice people but when they try to push their religion on a group of people with a different belief while calling that belief a load of ****... ya that kind of stuff gets big disapproval from me.

I know full well that there are many Andrastians who are good people, and actually don't dislike Andrastianism. I just hate the Chantry because it uses peoples faith as a tool to further their own ends and they try to tailor the Chant of Light to suit their own agenda.

 

For example the Canticles of Thane Shartan are in the Chant of Light, but not in the White Chantry's approved version and it's considered heresy to even speak of it.

 

The Chant of Light and the Chantry are not the same thing.

[Willowhugger]

I know full well that there are many Andrastians who are good people, and actually don't dislike Andrastianism. I just hate the Chantry because it uses peoples faith as a tool to further their own ends and they try to tailor the Chant of Light to suit their own agenda.

 

For example the Canticles of Thane Shartan are in the Chant of Light, but not in the White Chantry's approved version and it's considered heresy to even speak of it.

Yeah, the Shartan thing is just pure racism on the part of the Chantry.

 

There's not even a defense for that.

It's just because people hate elves and talking about how Andraste had a elven buddy didn't do well.

It's like reminding people "Jesus was a Jew" was actually taboo for centuries.

 

I kid you not.

[Master Warder Z_]

Yeah, the Shartan thing is just pure racism on the part of the Chantry.

 

There's not even a defense for that.

It's just because people hate elves and talking about how Andraste had a elven buddy didn't do well.

It's like reminding people "Jesus was a Jew" was actually taboo for centuries.

 

I kid you not.

 

I personally think that was incredibly short sided, Shartan was an Andrastian elf after all.

 

They should have rubbed the elves noses in the fact, they betrayed their founders own chosen God.

[Mabari-Master]

Yeah, the Shartan thing is just pure racism on the part of the Chantry.

 

There's not even a defense for that.

It's just because people hate elves and talking about how Andraste had a elven buddy didn't do well.

It's like reminding people "Jesus was a Jew" was actually taboo for centuries.

 

I kid you not.

And that is why I could not, in good conscience, let Brother Burkel establish a Chantry in Orzammar. The dwarves there are already an endangered people without Chantry scrutiny going up the mine shafts.

[Mabari-Master]

I personally think that was incredibly short sided, Shartan was an Andrastian elf after all.

 

They should have rubbed the elves noses in the fact, they betrayed their founders own chosen God.

They never actually state what Shartan's religion was. Only that he was an ally, not a follower, of Andraste.

 

To the elves, he died a prisoner of war, not a religious martyr.

 

And even if he were a martyr of the faith, why doesn't the Chantry preach his teachings?

[PsychoBlonde]

I don't see how it's the Warden's place to interfere in Orzammar's religion... unless they have some specific, Chantry-related agenda in mind, or Burkel was paying exceedingly well for the Warden's aid, there is no reason to get involved.  Seems like stirring up trouble just for the sake of causing conflict.

But you have no problem with the Warden "interfering"--hugely--with Orzammar politics?  Or the Shaperate "interfering" with Brother Burkel?  If you watched thugs beating someone to death in the street, would you say "oh, it's not my place to interfere"?  "Interfering" is not a primary.  It is, in fact, a cheap cop-out.  Simply by being alive, one "interferes" with the life of every person they encounter.

 

The proper way to say "it's not my place to" is not to follow it by "interfere" but by "demand" "order" or "force".  I didn't force anyone to do ANYTHING.  Brother Burkel asked for my assistance, I went up to the Shaperate and asked nicely and they said "yes".  If they said "no", I would have gone down to Brother Burkel and told him "they said 'no'".  The end.  You know who took it upon themselves to "demand", "order" and "force" anyone?  The Assembly.  They are the ones who "interfered".  Talk to *them*.

[Willowhugger]

And that is why I could not, in good conscience, let Brother Burkel establish a Chantry in Orzammar. The dwarves there are already an endangered people without Chantry scrutiny going up the mine shafts.

The Dwarves getting aid from the Chantry would be nice.

Maybe the Templars ACTUALLY FIGHTING EVIL for a change would be good.

But no, that'd be too difficult.

 

[PsychoBlonde]

And even if he were a martyr of the faith, why doesn't the Chantry preach his teachings?

The Chantry is not the Catholic church.  They don't preach the teachings of anyone except Andraste as far as I've seen, nor do they beatify martyrs or seek martyrdom.  Andraste is what she is because she was the Bride of the Maker (so they say), NOT because she was martyred.  It is a *radically* different kind of religion.

[Master Warder Z_]

They never actually state what Shartan's religion was.

 

Incorrect.

 

Two codexes and WOT show Shartan converted.

[Willowhugger]

They never actually state what Shartan's religion was. Only that he was an ally, not a follower, of Andraste.

 

To the elves, he died a prisoner of war, not a religious martyr.

 

And even if he were a martyr of the faith, why doesn't the Chantry preach his teachings?

Because the Chantry isn't the Andrastrian faith.

 

The Chantry is a political organization created by Andraste's sons to control the heathens.

 

Just like Charlemagne used the Catholic Church to solidify his hold on conquered territories.

 

And betrayed the principles of the religion by converting by the sword.

 

Orlaisians hate Elves.

Therefore, the Chantry hates elves.

Because the Chantry is a puppet of Orlais.

[Mabari-Master]

Because the Chantry isn't the Andrastrian faith.

 

The Chantry is a political organization created by Andraste's sons to control the heathens.

 

Just like Charlemagne used the Catholic Church to solidify his hold on conquered territories.

 

And betrayed the principles of the religion by converting by the sword.

 

Orlaisians hate Elves.

Therefore, the Chantry hates elves.

Because the Chantry is a puppet of Orlais.

Thank you!

[Willowhugger]

Thank you!

 

My mage is a sincere Andrastrian who, nevertheless, has studied the Discordant Verses.

 

I wonder if the fact you delivered a original copy of Maferath's teachings to the Chantry will cause a bit of chaos.

It's kind of hard to deny the teachings of Maferath were sincere when they're in the Tomb of Sacred Ashes.

 

I mean, that's hard to ignore.

At least for anyone with integrity.

[Dabrikishaw]

I stopped doing his quest since it gets him killed. 

[Icy Magebane]

But you have no problem with the Warden "interfering"--hugely--with Orzammar politics?  Or the Shaperate "interfering" with Brother Burkel?  If you watched thugs beating someone to death in the street, would you say "oh, it's not my place to interfere"?  "Interfering" is not a primary.  It is, in fact, a cheap cop-out.  Simply by being alive, one "interferes" with the life of every person they encounter.

 

The proper way to say "it's not my place to" is not to follow it by "interfere" but by "demand" "order" or "force".  I didn't force anyone to do ANYTHING.  Brother Burkel asked for my assistance, I went up to the Shaperate and asked nicely and they said "yes".  If they said "no", I would have gone down to Brother Burkel and told him "they said 'no'".  The end.  You know who took it upon themselves to "demand", "order" and "force" anyone?  The Assembly.  They are the ones who "interfered".  Talk to *them*.

The Warden went to Orzammar to gain allies in fighting the Blight.  Since the dwarves would not budge until a successor to the throne had been chosen, it fell upon the Warden to solve this problem so that they could move on to the next treaty or call for the Landsmeet.  Disrupting an ancient civilization's religion has no bearing on the battle with the Darkspawn, it's meddling.  Attempt to justify it however you wish, but that isn't even close to the same thing as saving a random person from thugs.  I can understand the  Warden taking action if they had some kind of agenda in mind, but what you described earlier sounded like promoting the spread of a foreign religion simply to force the dwarves to re-examine their religious and cultural views.  That isn't the Warden's responsibility and it seems reckless to involve oneself in such an affair and then say, "well, not my business how that turns out..." after walking away.

[Willowhugger]

The Warden went to Orzammar to gain allies in fighting the Blight.  Since the dwarves would not budge until a successor to the throne had been chosen, it fell upon the Warden to solve this problem so that they could move on to the next treaty or call for the Landsmeet.  Disrupting an ancient civilization's religion has no bearing on the battle with the Darkspawn, it's meddling.  Attempt to justify it however you wish, but that isn't even close to the same thing as saving a random person from thugs.  I can understand the  Warden taking action if they had some kind of agenda in mind, but what you described earlier sounded like promoting the spread of a foreign religion simply to force the dwarves to re-examine their religious and cultural views.  That isn't the Warden's responsibility and it seems reckless to involve oneself in such an affair and then say, "well, not my business how that turns out..." after walking away.

 

Again, I suppose it depends on how disruptive you think allowing free-practice of religion will be.

 

Amusingly, I'd probably have done it if I'd met a Qunari there.

 

That would be interesting.

Sten approves +10.