589 réponses à ce sujet

[AshesEleven]

They don't know what Gaspard wants half the time. They just try to make him seem much better than he is so they can say he is better.

 

Gaspard is an ass.  But he's a likeable ass.  And that makes him "better" in my eyes.  I don't think he's a good person, but he's more honest and straightforward than Celene.  Who would be a better ruler?  I don't know, but I do know that Celene is the kind of person that has betrayed her lover twice, and was likely planning on betraying her again.  Whereas Gaspard doesn't seem like that kind of person.  

[Patchwork]

Gaspard would betray his lover imo but he wouldn't murder his/her parents then seduce them* the same night.  

 

*the lover not the parents.

[Grand Admiral Cheesecake]

Gaspard would betray his lover imo but he wouldn't murder his/her parents then seduce them the same night.  

 

Squicky as **** Celene.

 

Squicky as all ****.

[Medhia_Nox]

Good people don't rule countries - countries are not "good" entities, they are functional entities.  Any notion that a leader, or a nation and it's body politic, are good and noble is blind patriotism and I have as much time for subjugating myself to a make believe set of rules under a make believe body of power as I do a religion.

 

I would never look for a good person to rule a nation - so, whether or not Celene and Gaspard are both horrible people - is not something I would readily consider.

 

At first, I was against Gaspard because he spoke to my past and a person I was that I'd like better to avoid. Celene, however, revels in "The Game" and her capacity for duplicity is all encompassing.  

 

However - the man Gaspard is, is forthright in its cruelty and desire for power and control.  I can respect a person who comes at me head on - even when he's tricked me into a trap.  It was clear to Celene that Gaspard was jockying for power - that she was outwitted does not make his actions duplicitous.  If I say: "I am going to take from you."  The manner in which I do so is not duplicitous based on the fact that I did not tell you "How" I was going to take from you.

Celene, however turns not only on her Champion in, what I believe, is the worst decision of her career - but also on her lover.  Two people who supported her and two people whom she did not even have the courtesy to inform: "I will use you as currency and when you are spent I will discard you." 

 

ALL this is coupled with the fact that Gaspard knows his weaknesses.  I admire a man who's aware of his shortcomings.  And he compensates for them.  Apostates, Dalish, Nobles - if he's got a need, he'll admit it, and fill the space with competent professionals.  

 

Celene seems to rely completely on Briala a Michel to the point where not a single thing (except for the greatest debacle in the book) is her decision.  By the end - she betrays her two greatest allies (and assets).  She is an utterly incompetent ruler who chose the path of deception to enforce her ruling (vs. the path of diplomacy or force or commerce or any number of other means of control).  

 

Celene's nature seems, at first, appealing because boy would she just love everything to be sunshine and roses for everyone.  But it isn't and when it doesn't work out that elves can just be free... and education can just be for everyone... she resorts to the worst possible forms of coercion.  

 

At the end of the book I was still supporting Celene - though with a sour taste in my mouth - but the boards and some of it's members have absolutely convinced me to side with Gaspard.

 

Let's see what Inquisition shows my Inquisitor and how I'll decide then.

[DragonDroppings]

Gaspard is an ******* in my book. Much more so than Celene. All im sayin

[Master Warder Z_]

Gaspard is an ******* in my book. Much more so than Celene. All im sayin

 

Right, Because being honest, straight forward and and still being brilliant while doing it is a horrible thing.

 

He may wear a mask over his face, but he never masks his intent.

 

God we need more politicians like him in reality.

[DragonDroppings]

Right, Because being honest, straight forward and and still being brilliant while doing it is a horrible thing.
 
He may wear a mask over his face, but he never masks his intent.
 
God we need more politicians like him in reality.

Yes, politicians who would overthrow the government and kill it's own troops in an ambush.. k

This entire 14 page of argument are all opinions. No point in arguing about opinions that won't change. So I guess this will be my last post in this thread. You guys can pointlessly argue w/o me.

Both are bad, one is two faced. The other is straightforward... Hitler was also straightforward..

[Master Warder Z_]

Godwin wins again.

 

Oh and just so you know, mentioning the Fuhrer doesn't do much to me.

 

It isn't a shock value term to me.

 

He's a historical figure, one among many.

 

Not much else.

[Seboist]

Godwin wins again.

 

Oh and just so you know, mentioning the Fuhrer doesn't do much to me.

 

It isn't a shock value term to me.

 

He's a historical figure, one among many.

 

Not much else.

 

He's the only one Gaspard's haters can remember apparently.

[fhs33721]

He's the only one Gaspard's haters can remember apparently.

To be fair, he is the only one most people in general can remember apparently. Probably because the man gets more publicity from history channels than everyone else together.

[Willowhugger]

Gaspard does not want to destroy the game. I'm sorry, but there's no destroying court intrigue in Thedas.

 

No, but there's redirecting the efforts of the public to foreign wars than infighting.

Which has happened all the time in history.

[Willowhugger]

Because it's not like the Orlesian nobility would ever tire of a second occupation, right? Because the Orlesian people stand to gain so much?

 

An invasion of Fereldan is just a band-aid, meant to temporarily appease a bunch of childish, fickle troglodytes, while the common people get to pay the toll.

 

I 100% agree. Gaspard would be handling the nobility rather than doing anything good for the common people.

Who I suspect rate in his opinions between 1 and 0.

[Master Warder Z_]

To be fair, he is the only one most people in general can remember apparently. Probably because the man gets more publicity from history channels than everyone else together.

 

That's unfair!

 

The Hitler channel has been gone for more then a decade now!

[Steelcan]

That's unfair!

 

The Hitler channel has been gone for more then a decade now!

the History channel is the "Aliens/Ancient Bullshit Prophecies/Rednecks doing stupid things/Re-run of a decent show once a month channel"

[Willowhugger]

I'd argue that Gaspard is more like Napoleon.

He sees the country is completely ****ed in terms of internal strife.

Then he unites it by appealing to their martial heritage.

[Master Warder Z_]

the History channel is the "Aliens/Ancient Bullshit Prophecies/Rednecks doing stupid things/Re-run of a decent show once a month channel"

 

It honestly saddens me that i used to enjoy the channel.

[Medhia_Nox]

It's a shame that people bring up Hitler - not because Hitler = bad (and he certainly does), but rather because it shows a lack of understanding in how empires are built and won.

 

Would we hold the same hatred for General Washington?  Napoleon?  Alexander?  The Ceasars?  Queen Elizabeth?  General Cao Cao?  Yes - they are cruel, horrible people - each and every one of them - who shaped the world toward their own ends.  But they were all also absolutely amazing rulers (in varying degrees). 

There is not a single ruler of significance that has hands not drenched in blood, tongues not silver with lies, nor ambitions free of cruelty.

 

My criticism of Celene is based 1) On the manner in which she manages power (Deceit) which I find personally distasteful and 2) My belief that she is utterly incompetent as a ruler.

 

She can't even stand by the basic principles which she would later be known - reform.  Her cruelty is based on her ability to maintain power alone - that is not admirable.  What is the worth of her power if she cannot even sacrifice her safety to uphold the tenants by which she claims to stand? 

Gaspard's motivation is in pursuit of his the principle by which he would rule.  Orlais.  He stand by that principle and his actions (so far) are always in pursuit of i.

[Steelcan]

It honestly saddens me that i used to enjoy the channel.

the same tripe is popping up on the Discovery Channel, Animal Planet has gone the way of the Dodo, and even the Science Channel is screwing up

 

Smithsonian Channel and National Geographic are decent

[DarthAleas]

I know I'm a little late for the party, but I just finished reading TME (I'm always afraid to read tie-in books, but I loved Asunder and Masked Empire. I shouldn't have doubted the Bioware writers.) and WOW... The book was awesome.

 

I'll have a hard time to choose who I'm gonna support in DAI though. Also, is this confirmed? Sorry, I've never seen any article about Celene and/or Gaspard's appearance in DAI (or any of the other characters', actually. Though I'd like to cross paths with Briala... I think my Magequisitor would kind of agree with her intentions, maybe even try to gain control of the Eluvians himself... hm...) or anything. Then again, I'm kinda new to this whole Celene VS Gaspard debacle and never really looked for new information until very recently.

 

So yeah, as I was saying, I don't know which I'll "choose", if it's really a choice in DAI. I actually hope we can achieve some kind of peaceful resolution for the civil war, though I highly doubt it. I think Gaspard and Celene would make a great team if they put aside their differences and their history for the greater good. They're like two sides of the same coin, really. But then again, where there's power... I dunno. I love both characters for different reasons, maybe that's why. I think I'll just roleplay that choice, go with what each of my Inquisitors think.

[Medhia_Nox]

@Steelcan:  Bah, honestly - how many times can scientists make up something they don't actually know about the universe for television?  Every science show about the universe ends with:  "We don't really know - but wasn't this program a neat idea!?"

Better to just go with the insane crap like ancient aliens and ghost's in my dishwasher and yeti's laundry basket discovered. 

[Willowhugger]

There is not a single ruler of significance that has hands not drenched in blood, tongues not silver with lies, nor ambitions free of cruelty.

 

My criticism of Celene is based 1) On the manner in which she manages power (Deceit) which I find personally distasteful and 2) My belief that she is utterly incompetent as a ruler.

 

She can't even stand by the basic principles which she would later be known - reform.  Her cruelty is based on her ability to maintain power alone - that is not admirable.  What is the worth of her power if she cannot even sacrifice her safety to uphold the tenants by which she claims to stand? 

Gaspard's motivation is in pursuit of his the principle by which he would rule.  Orlais.  He stand by that principle and his actions (so far) are always in pursuit of i.

 

I more or less agree with you re: the issue. The difference between Celene and Bhelen is a lot and that's worthwhile. Celene has the appeal of someone who isn't a warmonger and seems interested in raising the plight of the common man. However, unlike Bhelen, Orlais is not under the assault of the Darkspawn. Likewise, she doesn't have any real firm commitment to the plight of the Casteless. It's kind of interesting that Celene is perfectly willing to do something UNSPEAKABLE to the person she loves but I can't imagine Bhelen doing the same.

 

Bhelen is willing to dissolve the Assembly to protect his reforms/power base.

Celene is willing to compromise at the cost of those she claims to protect.

 

Bizarrely, Bhelen has more integrity in my view.

 

 

[Medhia_Nox]

@Willowhugger:  The dwarves are so in your face about trying to crush their opponents.  I find it refreshing.  You've even got the criers in Orzamaar talking about the two opponent like it's some sort of sporting match between the two.

 

The thing is - yes, Bhelen is a "bad man" as all those who are competent at ruling must be - but it does seem that the dwarves do not use just "anything" to win their pissing contests.  Bhelen or Harrowmont might try to crush you with their personal guards... but, to my memory, neither one of them takes a young dwarven girl and dangles her off the side of Orzamaar and says:  "If you keep helping X, we'll drop her. " 

 

That's just a bad illustration - but Celene basically says:  Gaspard is totally challenging my power.  I KNOW!  I'll go slaughter an entire block of unruly elves. 

 

And Celene MUST be the epitome of selfishness when it comes to Briala.  Not because she betrays her.  But we're presented with a woman (Celene) who KNOWS how politically undermining her relationship with a woman AND elf would be if her opponents found out.  This suggests of course that she is so absolutely passionately in love... that nothing could tear them apart.

 

What tears them apart?  A single challenge to her power. Celene is willing to throw this "storybook love" right out the window at the mere threat of being undermined at court with the elven rebellion in Halamshiral.  Why did she even go?  Had she gone to parley and, with a single stroke of her silver tongue, put down the rebellion - it would have been a terrifying strike at Gaspard proving that her mere words are powerful enough to deal violence.  ((Note:  Even if - behind the scenes - certain concessions had to be made to secure the appearance of such.))  But no.. she's all:  "Gotta crush these peasant elves who are justifiably angry with the utmost violence!  HUZZAH!"

 

This leads me to believe that she doesn't even really love Briala at all.  A mere inconvenience of a handful of events tears them apart (I do think Briala actually loves Celene - since she doesn't open an Eluvian straight to Par Vollen or something).  Time and again in that book basically says (to me): "I love having sex with you, and having you in my company - but my power is really REALLY important to me (not governing Orlais) - and my bed is REALLY soft and my clothes are REALLY nice... so you just need to understand while I betray you over and over and over... mkkay?  Love ya Bri!"

 

Man - part of me wants to be the one sending the assassin to the Winter Palace now... heh

[Willowhugger]

I think Empress Celene is an excellent deconstruction of race-relations in fantasy, obviously. I wish Patrick would show up so I could congratulate him on this as you don't normally see this sort of thing. Empress Celene shows herself to be the sort of woman and passionate reformer a smart, intelligent, and extremely willful elf like Briala might support.

 

However, I think it's very interesting to view it in the context of so many other relationships across history in racist societies between a minority and a extremely powerful/rich member of the majority. The power dynamics between them are considerably different and it leads to serious problems. Celene is very happy to have her relationship with Briala so long as it's secret and doesn't threaten her position.

 

Then she goes all nasty on them.

 

Briala tries to defend the burning of a city as "what did you think was going to happen?"

And my response to her is, "What did they think was going to happen otherwise?"

Now it's a rallying cry to other elves.

 

I think Celene is thus EXTREMELY racist, just not in the way you normally see in society. She thinks of herself as a liberal but considers elves to be easily manipulated and led around children who need her condescending White/Human Privilege in order to achieve anything. They OWE her their support and Celene sexually enjoys Briala while pretending its love--but considers her nothing more than someone who should follow her ever command as well as be at her disposable. She lies, manipulates, and misuses her at every opportunity.

[AshesEleven]

 

 

I think Celene is thus EXTREMELY racist, just not in the way you normally see in society. She thinks of herself as a liberal but considers elves to be easily manipulated and led around children who need her condescending White/Human Privilege in order to achieve anything. They OWE her their support 

 

 

This is partly why I am completely in favour of Briala's rebellion.  As if the freedom of the elves is something for the humans to just give out when the time is right.  If they can just wait long enough, and they stop getting nobles mad, THEN they can be more free!  

 

But you know what? Screw that.  The elves aren't children.  They deserve freedom.  They don't need to keep playing nice for humans who have never liked them.  So they're going to take that freedom, and not wait for it to be handed to them by a woman who has broken her promises multiple times in the past.

 

You go, Briala.