589 réponses à ce sujet

[Willowhugger]

At the end of ME she gives every indication of being committed to improving the state of the orlesian elves, she regards them as orlesian citizens the same as humans. Plus, this is without Briala even in the picture clouding her judgement, so there is every reason to believe she will follow through with her continued reforms onces she gets stability. 

 

Also, I maintain that neither Briala or the city elves in Halamshiral seek independence, they just want equality for elves in Orlais.  They don't regard themselves as oppressed elves or Dalish, they regard themselves as Orlesian.

 

1:] Briala knows Celene, literally, better than anyone else on Earth and she says that Celene would never follow through with these promises.

 

2:] I can't imagine Briala wants the elves under either Celene or Gaspard. So I'm inclined to think she wants an independent nation for them.

[Beerfish]

Spoilers galore below....

 

Briala = naive stupid traitor who is going to get a lot of elves killed by her actions

Celene = Plays the game and puts the crown and puts the welfare of O'rlais above all.

Gaspard = Holds to a strict code is power hungry and also puts the welfare of O'rlais above all.

Michael = Dumber than a sack of hammers a total traitor to the crown and to the Chevaliers, should be executed asap.

Imshael = Finally we have a demon worthy of being feared, in the games our heros just polish off demon after demon with an occasional tough fight.  This guy is the real deal and is real nasty.

Felassan = Cool dude for the most part, can't quite figure him out or why what happens at the end happens.

 

As with some of the other books characters that people seem to like I find to be foolish at best and total traitors for the most part.

[Willowhugger]

Spoilers galore below....

 

Briala = naive stupid traitor who is going to get a lot of elves killed by her actions

Celene = Plays the game and puts the crown and puts the welfare of O'rlais above all.

Gaspard = Holds to a strict code is power hungry and also puts the welfare of O'rlais above all.

Michael = Dumber than a sack of hammers a total traitor to the crown and to the Chevaliers, should be executed asap.

Imshael = Finally we have a demon worthy of being feared, in the games our heros just polish off demon after demon with an occasional tough fight.  This guy is the real deal and is real nasty.

Felassan = Cool dude for the most part, can't quite figure him out or why what happens at the end happens.

 

As with some of the other books characters that people seem to like I find to be foolish at best and total traitors for the most part.

So, as a Fereldan supporter, go Briala and Michel?

:-)

Re: Felassan

 

Spoiler

It's obvious he's a member of the Venatori. I'm sorry he's probably dead, though.

[Chari]

How so?

Prepare for an attack after Gaspard tried to kill her himself? Try to get rid of him? Do SOMETHING?
Or at least not ride into the nocturnal wilderness with a tired army?
It was obvious he'd attempt to get rid of her again yet she did nothing to strengthen her defense

[DragonDroppings]

I just finished the book, and I want to apologize!! LMFAO.

I didn't realize they would put all Gaspard's best parts in the end of the book. He truly is honorable, no lie. Not comparable to Hitler (that much). I swear I didn't think my view of him would change that much between the little bit of pages I had left.

I won't bad mouth Gaspard anymore, but I still side with Celene. Must be something about reading the book in her perspective. Or maybe because I like bards and rogues. Celene is a bch, but she plays a great skilled bard rogue.

Wonder who Felesan was talking to in the fade. "Dread wolf"?

[Willowhugger]

Wonder who Felesan was talking to in the fade. "Dread wolf"?

 

It's almost certainly the Elder One.

 

He's not Dalish.

He's an agent of the Venatori.

[DragonDroppings]

It's almost certainly the Elder One.
 
He's not Dalish.
He's an agent of the Venatori.

What's a venatori?

[Medhia_Nox]

Though I stepped away for the thread for a little while - some people questioned my statement about rulers and their propensity toward bloodlust.

 

I believe it was very clear I was speaking of Empire Builders TM.  Neither Nelson Mandella - nor Jimmy Carter - are notable as empire builders. 

 

I would have used Gandhi personally - though again, he was refuting an Empire, not building one.  Still, he is the best conceivable example of "sacrifice without violence as a means for great change" or, what we call civil resistance.  

[Willowhugger]

What's a venatori?

The Elder One's minions.

 

They're stirring **** up all over Thedas.

[DragonDroppings]

it was the same with me I hated Gaspard for quite some time (especially his anti ferelden attitude)
but in the end I liked him

I'm not sure why you are still on Celene's side though
Join Team Gaspard so that we can hopefully put him on the throne in DA:I

I stand by the Empress, and although I respect Gaspard now, I feel Celene is still the better ruler for Orlais.

Not that I would argue about it anymore.

[Ieldra]

I support Celene's policy and that's why I'm going to side with her, should we get the choice. That Gaspard is somewhat honorable makes him bearable, but only just enough that siding against him isn't a total no-brainer. It doesn't change the fact he's a diehard traditionalist, and thus I will oppose him.

[Willowhugger]

I support Celene's policy and that's why I'm going to side with her, should we get the choice. That Gaspard is somewhat honorable makes him bearable, but only just enough that siding against him isn't a total no-brainer. It doesn't change the fact he's a diehard traditionalist, and thus I will oppose him.

 

I'm a radical reformer in Thedas, no matter who I'm playing.

 

And a snake is a snake.

 

We don't need Celenes on our side.

[Medhia_Nox]

I do think if Gaspard takes the Throne (and I hope he does) that Briala and the elves are far more screwed than if Celene keeps it.

[Willowhugger]

I do think if Gaspard takes the Throne (and I hope he does) that Briala and the elves are far more screwed than if Celene keeps it.

 

Celene has already shown she's willing to exterminate rebellious elves, though.

 

Not sure how she's an improvement.

[Ieldra]

Celene has already shown she's willing to exterminate rebellious elves, though.

 

Not sure how she's an improvement.

She had a choice between several sh*tty alternatives. What did you expect? That she steps down? What Celene does reluctantly, Gaspard does without any regrets. Now imagine situations where she's a little less constrained by the circumstances.

[Medhia_Nox]

@Willowhugger:  No, no - she's not better - just less competent. 

 

Gaspard will likely give Briala one option... surrender.  If she doesn't - the elves will suffer FAR more horribly than if Celene did the same. 

 

Alexander the Great was notorious for slaughtering entire cities if they didn't capitulate immediately.  I see Gaspard in the same light. 

[wcholcombe]

Celene has already shown she's willing to exterminate rebellious elves, though.

 

Not sure how she's an improvement.

Again, when pushed to it to maintain power.  She knows she has to be in power to help the elves, not being deposed.  She may not put the elves first, which she shouldn't anyway, but she puts them in a lot higher standing then Gaspard.

 

1:] Briala knows Celene, literally, better than anyone else on Earth and she says that Celene would never follow through with these promises.

 

2:] I can't imagine Briala wants the elves under either Celene or Gaspard. So I'm inclined to think she wants an independent nation for them.

1) Actually Briala says that when it comes to a choice between staying in power and helping the elves Celene would choose staying in power.  Which is exactly the advice that Briala herself gives Celene earlier in the book.

2) Considering she says she claims the eluvians for the elves of Orlais, not the dalish and not elves everywhere, she is still thinking as being a member of orlais.  Plus, she knows they aren't in a position to be independent, she just wants equality.

[Beerfish]

The leaders of both sides have shown they will put aside the game and their differences when needed and if the fate of O'rlais is at stake.  The moment the elves and their little Eluvian strategy starts to become a real burr in their saddle Gaspard and Celene will team up with full support of all the lords and lay the beat down on the elves both city and dalish.

[Wissenschaft]

What's a venatori?

 

The Venatori are a cult originating from Tevinter that will be an enemy faction in DA: I. They worship and serve a being called the "elder one". Sounds like a Cthulhu cult to me, which is awesome!

[The Baconer]

How so?

 

Heavily publicize the play to the common people. Talk to the local clerics and the Divine, announce that all those involved with the writing and performance of the play will be excommunicated. Maybe the actors can be convinced to confess in a public trial that they were, in fact, coerced in to performing such blasphemy by demon worshipers, or something else appropriately dramatic.

 

Now the ball is in Gaspard's court, not the other way around. His supporters will have to choose between supporting a man the people now know as a heathen and iconoclast, or they can switch allegiances and pretend they were pious defenders of the faith all along. This scandal could also have the side benefit of giving Briala more time to bring the situation in Halamshiral under control.

[Grand Admiral Cheesecake]

Heavily publicize the play to the common people. Talk to the local clerics and the Divine, announce that all those involved with the writing and performance of the play will be excommunicated. Maybe the actors can be convinced to confess in a public trial that they were, in fact, coerced in to performing such blasphemy by demon worshipers, or something else appropriately dramatic.

 

Now the ball is in Gaspard's court, not the other way around. His supporters will have to choose between supporting a man the people now know as a heathen and iconoclast, or they can switch allegiances and pretend they were pious defenders of the faith all along. This scandal could also have the side benefit of giving Briala more time to bring the situation in Halamshiral under control.

 

That's far too intelligent a response for Celene.

[fhs33721]

Celene has already shown she's willing to exterminate rebellious elves, though.

 

Not sure how she's an improvement.

So the empress that puts down elvish rebellions but on the other hand forces univeristies to teach that humans and elves are equal and refuses to approve off taxes that would only target elven merchants is not an improvement to the guy that would just as readily put down the rebellion (as he himself says to the Ruler of Halamshiral) but also thinks that elves belong into the slums, wants to hunt down Dalish and uses essays that claim "sleeping with an elf is as insulting to the maker as sleeping with an animal." to further his political goals?

Let's not kid ourselves here. Gaspard is an awesome character and he does have some sense of honor as opposed to Celene. But I seriously doubt the elves would have it better under him.

 

Heavily publicize the play to the common people. Talk to the local clerics and the Divine, announce that all those involved with the writing and performance of the play will be excommunicated. Maybe the actors can be convinced to confess in a public trial that they were, in fact, coerced in to performing such blasphemy by demon worshipers, or something else appropriately dramatic.

 

Now the ball is in Gaspard's court, not the other way around. His supporters will have to choose between supporting a man the people now know as a heathen and iconoclast, or they can switch allegiances and pretend they were pious defenders of the faith all along. This scandal could also have the side benefit of giving Briala more time to bring the situation in Halamshiral under control.

If I remember correctly Remache was the one who finaced the play. So Gaspard himself is save from any retaliation from the Cantry. Correct me if I'm wrong though.

[wcholcombe]

Heavily publicize the play to the common people. Talk to the local clerics and the Divine, announce that all those involved with the writing and performance of the play will be excommunicated. Maybe the actors can be convinced to confess in a public trial that they were, in fact, coerced in to performing such blasphemy by demon worshipers, or something else appropriately dramatic.

 

Now the ball is in Gaspard's court, not the other way around. His supporters will have to choose between supporting a man the people now know as a heathen and iconoclast, or they can switch allegiances and pretend they were pious defenders of the faith all along. This scandal could also have the side benefit of giving Briala more time to bring the situation in Halamshiral under control.

Umm problem here, as discussed in the book. Celene has been an advocate and supporter of free speech in the theater and has condemned past punitive responses to plays that criticized emperors/empresses/the chantry.

 

Nothing would say that you are a forward thinking culturally minded empress like slapping down the theater and everyone involved with the play......

 

BTW, to my knowledge, the Chantry doesn't excommunicate people anyway.

[The Baconer]

If I remember correctly Remache was the one who finaced the play. So Gaspard himself is save from any retaliation from the Cantry. Correct me if I'm wrong though.

 

That's not what the actors said. Trust me, they personally testified.

 

Umm problem here, as discussed in the book. Celene has been an advocate and supporter of free speech in the theater and has condemned past punitive responses to plays that criticized emperors/empresses/the chantry.

 

Nothing would say that you are a forward thinking culturally minded empress like slapping down the theater and everyone involved with the play......

 

What Celene is or isn't depends entirely on what happens to be convenient at the moment.

 

BTW, to my knowledge, the Chantry doesn't excommunicate people anyway.

 

If they don't, I'm sure vilification by the Divine and multiple clerics would serve the same purpose.