589 réponses à ce sujet

[Wissenschaft]

The Chantry does practice excommunication. They excommunicated all of the clerics in Tevinter which directly led to formation of the Imperial Chantry.

[Willowhugger]

Umm problem here, as discussed in the book. Celene has been an advocate and supporter of free speech in the theater and has condemned past punitive responses to plays that criticized emperors/empresses/the chantry.

 

Nothing would say that you are a forward thinking culturally minded empress like slapping down the theater and everyone involved with the play......

 

BTW, to my knowledge, the Chantry doesn't excommunicate people anyway.

 

Celene's hypocrisy also shows up when the play shows Andraste being a lesbian with Shartan.

 

She basically says the Theater head will be arrested and killed.

[raging_monkey]

Celene's hypocrisy also shows up when the play shows Andraste being a lesbian with Shartan. She basically says the Theater head will be arrested and killed.

heh your a thedosian having a an affair with a elf its sin lol yeah... not liking it

[Willowhugger]

heh your a thedosian having a an affair with a elf its sin lol yeah... not liking it

 

Double points!
 

1. I support freedom of expression as long as it's not against me.

 

2. The accusation is also true!

[raging_monkey]

Double points! 1. I support freedom of expression as long as it's not against me. 2. The accusation is also true!

i dont honestly care for personal preferences since it none of my business but killing a threater. Head is for a different view ismakes templars look good

[Ieldra]

heh your a thedosian having a an affair with a elf its sin lol yeah... not liking it

You miss the point. This is political and Chantry business, not about sexual preferences or racism.

 

I think people's dislike for Celene has run away with their reason in this thread. Gaspard would do the same in a heartbeat, and burn down the building with the rest of the actors in it on top of it.

[Willowhugger]

You miss the point. This is political and Chantry business, not about sexual preferences or racism.

 

I think people's dislike for Celene has run away with their reason in this thread. Gaspard would do the same in a heartbeat, and burn down the building with the rest of the actors in it on top of it.

 

He absolutely would consider sedition and treason.

I call out Celene's hypocrisy and that she is no friend to the causes she claim to support.

[wright1978]

Celene has already shown she's willing to exterminate rebellious elves, though.

 

Not sure how she's an improvement.

 

Celene has already shown she's willing to exterminate rebellious elves, though.

 

Not sure how she's an improvement.

 

Yep give me a steady traditionalist with a code over someone idealistic but lacking any strength of will to follow those ideals through.

[Medhia_Nox]

@Ieldra2:  I think the difference for me... is that he doesn't pretend otherwise.  And that makes a WORLD of difference to me.

 

I like knowing where I stand with someone.

 

Nothing is sacred to Celene, but Celene (and I don't get the impression, at all, that Orlais even matters more than Celene).  

 

She is an EMPRESS... not a king, not a duchess, not the chamberlain of her lady's manor... she rules the most powerful empire in the world (at least according to TME).

 

If she wanted to put educated elves into the college... the nobles would not even dare oppose her on such a tiny topic.  Time and time again, oppressed people have been allowed to move up the social ladder with rare notable exceptions.  I simply cannot imagine that this topic - among so many other matters of power and governance - would have been any real issue at all.  And if she really couldn't coerce a few nobles about a few "elves that would mollify their lessers with talk of hope of advancement" then she's hardly as good at the Game as she's portrayed.

 

Instead - she might have thought it was a neat little experiment - but part of me thinks she was doing some of those things just to get her elf lover to submit.  "Oh lookie Bri - I totally want to let that elf speak his little elf gibberish at the college!  But POO... those nasty human nobles are just getting so cranky about it.  I'm sad Bri, give me some sugar..." 

 

It was her sudden turning on Michel that made me suspect everything else she's ever said and done.  They were alone... with no witnesses - and she flips out about a thrown match?  Really? 

 

Also - I despise people that are brave when they have magical items... but useless cowards when they don't (now I'm just nitpicking about all the things I hated about her).  Magic items are for weak people who can't do on their own... just a personal opinion.

[raging_monkey]

You miss the point. This is political and Chantry business, not about sexual preferences or racism. I think people's dislike for Celene has run away with their reason in this thread. Gaspard would do the same in a heartbeat, and burn down the building with the rest of the actors in it on top of it.

i think was being misunderstood i prefer celene's rule just not found of censoship

[Wissenschaft]

@Ieldra2:  I think the difference for me... is that he doesn't pretend otherwise.  And that makes a WORLD of difference to me.

 

 

If she wanted to put educated elves into the college... the nobles would not even dare oppose her on such a tiny topic. 

 

What are you talking about?  One of the main reasons Gespard is getting so much support is that the nobles find Celene too sympathetic to the city elves. Its also completely nonsensical to condemn Celene for not doing enough and ignore that Gespard cares nothing for the elves and is plenty willing to kill them.

 

"Also - I despise people that are brave when they have magical items... but useless cowards when they don't (now I'm just nitpicking about all the things I hated about her).  Magic items are for weak people who can't do on their own... just a personal opinion."

I guess you forgot about the part where Celene tried to finish off Gespard without her rings. She was more than prepared to kill Gespard without her rings.

 

I have to agree, the hate for Celene in this thread is beyond reason.

[raging_monkey]

What are you talking about?  One of the main reasons Gespard is getting so much support is that the nobles find Celene too sympathetic to the city elves. Its also completely nonsensical to condemn Celene for not doing enough and ignore that Gespard cares nothing for the elves and is plenty willing to kill them. "Also - I despise people that are brave when they have magical items... but useless cowards when they don't (now I'm just nitpicking about all the things I hated about her).  Magic items are for weak people who can't do on their own... just a personal opinion."I guess you missed the part where Celene tried to finish off Gespard without her rings. She was more than prepared to kill Gespard without her rings. I have to agree, the hate for Celene in this thread is beyond reason.

well to some its because she's a progressive that makingblarge changes and being sneaky about, other cause she's a strong woman that generally fights for her ideals. Lastly so just combine the two. Just a observation

[Patchwork]

Heavily publicize the play to the common people. Talk to the local clerics and the Divine, announce that all those involved with the writing and performance of the play will be excommunicated. Maybe the actors can be convinced to confess in a public trial that they were, in fact, coerced in to performing such blasphemy by demon worshipers, or something else appropriately dramatic.

 

Now the ball is in Gaspard's court, not the other way around. His supporters will have to choose between supporting a man the people now know as a heathen and iconoclast, or they can switch allegiances and pretend they were pious defenders of the faith all along. This scandal could also have the side benefit of giving Briala more time to bring the situation in Halamshiral under control.

 

I think that's making too much of the play, too much attention gives it legitimacy and Celene has built her reputation on being a reformer and an advocate of free speech. Better to invite the playwrite and the head of the theatre round for tea, rave about the play and it's liberal, some are saying heretical aspects, and ferret out who slipped them the money. Let them go, they'd be stupid not to realise they've just escaped with their lives, and then go after the one who engineered the whole thing. The best way to deal with gossip is to give people something even juicer to talk about. 

 

Celene has spent her reign making the Game into what it is but she seems have forgotten how to play. She flat out panicked because the play hinted at a truth she had worked hard to conceal.  

[Beerfish]

Also - I despise people that are brave when they have magical items... but useless cowards when they don't (now I'm just nitpicking about all the things I hated about her).  Magic items are for weak people who can't do on their own... just a personal opinion.

So you prefer to be a dead hero rather than a live person who can do great things?    Your personal code will get you into your 1st tight battle and then you will be history.

[AshesEleven]

@Ieldra2:  I think the difference for me... is that he doesn't pretend otherwise.  And that makes a WORLD of difference to me.

 

I like knowing where I stand with someone.

 

Nothing is sacred to Celene, but Celene (and I don't get the impression, at all, that Orlais even matters more than Celene).  

 

She is an EMPRESS... not a king, not a duchess, not the chamberlain of her lady's manor... she rules the most powerful empire in the world (at least according to TME).

 

If she wanted to put educated elves into the college... the nobles would not even dare oppose her on such a tiny topic.  Time and time again, oppressed people have been allowed to move up the social ladder with rare notable exceptions.  I simply cannot imagine that this topic - among so many other matters of power and governance - would have been any real issue at all.  And if she really couldn't coerce a few nobles about a few "elves that would mollify their lessers with talk of hope of advancement" then she's hardly as good at the Game as she's portrayed.

 

Instead - she might have thought it was a neat little experiment - but part of me thinks she was doing some of those things just to get her elf lover to submit.  "Oh lookie Bri - I totally want to let that elf speak his little elf gibberish at the college!  But POO... those nasty human nobles are just getting so cranky about it.  I'm sad Bri, give me some sugar..." 

 

It was her sudden turning on Michel that made me suspect everything else she's ever said and done.  They were alone... with no witnesses - and she flips out about a thrown match?  Really? 

 

Also - I despise people that are brave when they have magical items... but useless cowards when they don't (now I'm just nitpicking about all the things I hated about her).  Magic items are for weak people who can't do on their own... just a personal opinion.

 

I think you overestimate the power an Empress has.  She can't do whatever the hell she wants if she doesn't want a rebellion on her hands, especially not with Gaspard making trouble in the neighbourhood.

[Master Warder Z_]

I think you overestimate the power an Empress has.  She can't do whatever the hell she wants if she doesn't want a rebellion on her hands, especially not with Gaspard making trouble in the neighbourhood.

 

Why not?

 

Florian seemed to do whatever he wanted, his depravities were famous, his taxes high, and no rebellion occurred until Celene prompted it.

 

I think you and other Celene fans just won't admit she is dominated by the game, rather then attempting to dominate the game.

 

Gaspard makes the game work for him, he doesn't work for it.

[Drasanil]

I do think if Gaspard takes the Throne (and I hope he does) that Briala and the elves are far more screwed than if Celene keeps it.

 

Not if the elves have an opportunity to strike a bargain with Gaspard. He'd be far more likely to actually stick to it, instead of just tearing it up the moment someone farted in the wrong direction.  

[Beerfish]

Why not?

 

Florian seemed to do whatever he wanted, his depravities were famous, his taxes high, and no rebellion occurred until Celene prompted it.

 

I think you and other Celene fans just won't admit she is dominated by the game, rather then attempting to dominate the game.

 

Gaspard makes the game work for him, he doesn't work for it.

It comes down to the the old political gambit that it is much easier to want power and point out all of the foibles of the incumbent than it is to be in power and try and appease everyone.

 

Gaspard can say or do anything he wants and can seize on whatever Celene says or does because she is the one holding the reigns of power.  Most people or parties that suddenly come into power suddenly find it is far tougher than they had imagined because as decision makers they are now the targets.

 

At this point Gaspard doesn't have to come up with any grand plan he just has to criticize that of the empress.

[Beerfish]

Not if the elves have an opportunity to strike a bargain with Gaspard. He'd be far more likely to actually stick to it, instead of just tearing it up the moment someone farted in the wrong direction.  

Oh I think you misread him a great deal.  He is far more likely to word his deal like this.  'Do what I say or I'll wipe you off the face of the earth' than be conciliatory at all.  Gaspard is not going to make a back room deal with the elves.

[kathic]

I really don't understand you people. My choice will likely be to screw the Empire and help the elves.

[Willowhugger]

Oh I think you misread him a great deal.  He is far more likely to word his deal like this.  'Do what I say or I'll wipe you off the face of the earth' than be conciliatory at all.  Gaspard is not going to make a back room deal with the elves.

 

No, he'd do it up front or not at all.

The thing is, we saw he sticks to it. He kills his strongest supporter and ally IN PRIVATE from anyone but his enemies.

 

Just because of a point of honor.

Gaspard would rather be honorable than victorious.

He weakens his position because of the Code.

[Master Warder Z_]

Oh I think you misread him a great deal.  He is far more likely to word his deal like this.  'Do what I say or I'll wipe you off the face of the earth' than be conciliatory at all.  Gaspard is not going to make a back room deal with the elves.

 

He would make them an open offer of alliance if anything, And would he do so?

 

I don't know, he is willing to accept the aid of Apostates, i think if he is willing to employ illegal mages, i think he could employ elves if it turned the situation in his favor far enough.

[The Baconer]

I think that's making too much of the play, too much attention gives it legitimacy and Celene has built her reputation on being a reformer and an advocate of free speech. Better to invite the playwrite and the head of the theatre round for tea, rave about the play and it's liberal, some are saying heretical aspects, and ferret out who slipped them the money. Let them go, they'd be stupid not to realise they've just escaped with their lives, and then go after the one who engineered the whole thing. The best way to deal with gossip is to give people something even juicer to talk about. 

 

She already knows Gaspard and Remache commissioned the play, and she could have gone after them but chose not to. Instead of banking on the gossip of a bunch of useless waifs you could go right over their heads and pander to the people who said waifs rely on for taxes, military service, and labor.

[Medhia_Nox]

@Beerfish:  Concerning magical items - it might very well be my end, but you'll always face an opponent with more magical items than you anyway.  If I wanted to take performance enhancers I'd be a professional sports player.  I make no excuses for my own personal code - it's slightly more complex than "Magic item = bad." but hardly worth getting into.

 

Even Celene accepts what Briala tells her.  She's weak because she relies on magical items as crutches - just like any weak person does.

 

@Wissenschaft:  The Gaspard who had been dealt a crippling blow by the champion she betrays?  Such a brave little debutant she is.  But yes, I did forget her attempt to attack him at the end of the book I suppose.

 

Had Michel been a lesser man - he should have let the wench get dragged away by Gaspard's soldiers instead of protected her untold times.

 

As for "my Celene hate" - it simple "is".  It's not blown out of proportion.  I don't like her.  Your reasons for liking her don't matter to me - it's not that I don't know them or understand their relevance.  I don't sit in the dark mulling over her legendary incompetence at ruling, her imbecilic decision to brand herself forever an enemy of progress by slaughtering the Halamshiral elves, her doubly imbecilic decision to betray the only two people keeping her in power and then, of course, how ineffectual she becomes once she doesn't even have her baubles to make her at least seem like she has a spine. 

 

I'm not telling anyone what "they" should do.  What you do in your game is great.  I am totally for it.  I think it's the best possible choice for your world.  Go you. 

 

That you need me to agree with you, is not a reflection on me.

[Wissenschaft]

Why not?

 

Florian seemed to do whatever he wanted, his depravities were famous, his taxes high, and no rebellion occurred until Celene prompted it.

 

I think you and other Celene fans just won't admit she is dominated by the game, rather then attempting to dominate the game.

 

Gaspard makes the game work for him, he doesn't work for it.

 

Florian had the rebellions in Ferelden as a convenient distraction. The war there was likely the reason the taxes were high in the first place. Even IRL, the American revolution was started because Britain tried to shift the tax burden, for paying for its wars with France, onto the American colonies. He also was killed by his mistress, Lady Mantillon. A bad example to follow.

Gaspard has an army behind him. Hes basically the top general of the army and has royal blood. This allows Gaspard a legitimate claim to the throne which is how he can muster support for a rebellion.