589 réponses à ce sujet

[wcholcombe]

I dunno, I trust Briala's judgement, that

 

Spoiler

Celene is a "Fair Weather Friend."

She does reforms except when people complain.

 

That's honestly worse to me than not attempting any at all.

 

Of course, I'm on Team Brialla.

It's basically like hoping Leliana will be Queen of the Elves.

 

I'd rather kill Gaspard AND Celene but I doubt that's an option.

Yeah as I said she is a political realist.  She can only help people and put forward reforms as long as she is in power.  Part of the reason that Gaspard rallied nobles against her was because the University she supported so heavily was now teaching their children that elves were equal to humans--something that came from Celene.

 

What I don't like about Brialla is that for all her political insights she has no perspective on politics.

[TK514]

Gaspard himself says that his honor only extends to warfare and that such constraints don't matter in politics. He attempts to assassinate Celene on a hunting trip and then rebels and ambushes her his rightful empress just because he is power hungry.  Which would I rather have in a battle as an ally-Gaspard hands down, but Celene will at least try and attempt reforms, I am not going to hold her being a political realist against her, Gaspard forced her hand.

 

A better comparison is Gaspard is Logain and Celene is Justinia.

 

Gaspard might not betray you in battle, but he has no such scruples in politics.  Heck, he threatened to put a whole city to the torch if the one guy didn't tell him where Celene fled to.  Its war and all, but people need to listen to Gaspard's own words when referring to the incident with Teagan, his honor only applies to combat.

 

Gaspard wasn't forcing her hand when she was promising the moon to Briala while at the same time planning on how best to use the elves as disposable Elluvian troops.  The whole reason Briala ultimately betrays her, as explicitly outlined in the book, is because everyone there knew that Celene was never going to keep her promises.

[Wissenschaft]

Exactly. Celene professed she was an ally to the elves, but as soon as that became politically inconvenient...what did she do at Halamshiral? I completely agree with your assessment of both the characters. Even though Gaspard has plenty of terrible qualities, he is much less of a hypocrite than Celene so that is why I like him more. 

 

Repeatedly bringing up Halamshiral is unfair towards Celene. If Halamshiral was full of rebelling humans, Celene would have been pressured to do the same. Rebellion is an act of treason.

Spoiler

As Bralia herself says, how else do you expect an empress to react to a rebellion? If I was Celene, I'd have asked if Bralia would have been as upset if she was force to put down a human rebellion. Or does she care only for elves? As empress, Celene has to worry about everyone, humans and elves alike.

[Magdalena11]

Seriously, if you have trouble with French, people will be able to help.  Doesn't a fair part of Canada speak French?

 

TME is a great book for foreshadowing, and I believe it is best read with Asunder for insight into the coming game.  Why not know why you're doing what you are?  Google translate is miserable (even knowing as little of French and Spanish as I do), so don't look there.  Most of the opinions you get here will be colored by perception of character or location, but at least you can hope the person doing the translating has a bit of context to base it on.  Even a fan's guesses are better than translation program's massacres.  

 

If this becomes an issue, maybe a lore resource page might be a cool thing.  I can read enough Orlesian to get by, but the subtle stuff is going to get lost because I go more with tone and un-translatable words than literal translation and hearsay.  Not that I can think of an instance (I never can,) but saying a woman is an allumeuse (probably serious transgression quoting a French word from memory) is probably much more than a femme fatale.  One implies a woman who is alluring and dangerous but drawn thruough her own character flaws and romanticism into tragedy, and the other, a hot chick who's dangerous and knows how to use what she's got.

[Wulfram]

The gratuitous French kind of annoyed me.  I didn't find it unclear, but it doesn't seem to have much consistency to it - why do we have Comte but also Duke?

 

Gaspard would make a better ally because you could rely on him to keep his side of the bargain.  Morally they're not much different - Celene perhaps has kinder instincts, but she's well practised at over-ruling them.

 

And I can't say I was convinced that Celene is an especially able ruler.

[Master Warder Z_]

Gaspard himself says that his honor only extends to warfare and that such constraints don't matter in politics.

 

He isn't fond of doing that however, beyond that if he gives his word he keeps it.

 

And also his honor doesn't just extend to "warfare or combat" he demonstrates that readily enough several times over. First of all when he allows a common soldier to challenge him for "betraying the empress" despite that battle being so far beneath his station it isn't even funny, its the future emperor of orlais vs a common scout.

 

Secondly when he kills ranmach despite there being no witness to the betrayal, he further states it was his mistake to bring him where he didn't understand the rules of the game, he doesn't bow to social whim, he enforces his own whim on society.

 

He also is apparently willing to accept a half blood on his merits as a warrior, not race.

 

All in all, he will be the best emperor since Drakon if Bioware allows it.

[Willowhugger]

Yeah as I said she is a political realist.  She can only help people and put forward reforms as long as she is in power.  Part of the reason that Gaspard rallied nobles against her was because the University she supported so heavily was now teaching their children that elves were equal to humans--something that came from Celene.

 

What I don't like about Brialla is that for all her political insights she has no perspective on politics.

 

I dunno, George Wallace ran on an anti-segregationist platform and lost heavily.

 

What people will do to maintain power can be worse than actually believing in it.

 

Michel, after all, was the most racist chevalier that Brialla ever met.

 

Spoiler

Despite being half-elven.

I also respect Gaspard's desire to end the Game.

 

As mentioned, he's the Stannis of the setting only more politically able.

[The Baconer]

Had Orlais invaded Fereldan, i do believe the issues of the white spire would have never occurred, the mages and templars would be too busy fighting a war in Fereldan to be fighting each other.

 

I suppose in that case that it is remarkably fortuitous that the Circle broke up before this could have happened.

[wcholcombe]

Gaspard wasn't forcing her hand when she was promising the moon to Briala while at the same time planning on how best to use the elves as disposable Elluvian troops.  The whole reason Briala ultimately betrays her, as explicitly outlined in the book, is because everyone there knew that Celene was never going to keep her promises.

Sure she was planning to use them as Eluvian troops when she was trying to put down Gaspards treasonous rebellion.

[Master Warder Z_]

I suppose in that case that it is remarkably fortuitous that the Circle broke up before this could have happened.

 

You prefer Orlais fighting it self to fighting another kingdom?
 

[Willowhugger]

Sure she was planning to use them as Eluvian troops when she was trying to put down Gaspards treasonous rebellion.

 

Celene is only Empress because she plotted against the Emperor.

There's no such thing as treason in Orlais.

Only winners and losers.

 

Which is why Gaspard HATES the current system.

Gaspard is also a Grand Duke, which means he's a member of the Royal Family. The throne is as much his by right as Celene's.

[Willowhugger]

You prefer Orlais fighting it self to fighting another kingdom?

 

I sided with the world's worst Qunari priestess-agent to kill a Orlesian Duke.

 

That's how much I hate Orlais.

 

It's kind of funny that's why I'm okay with MOTA.

My Hawke was comfortable with the outcome since Orlesian nobles died.

Look at the bright side, though, Gaspard is only able to do what he can because Prosper was Celene's strongest ally.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

I'm only about two thirds of the way through Masked Empire, but as I keep going I grow to like Gaspard more and more and consequently despise Celene and Briala.

 

The turning point for me was when:

 

Spoiler

Celene and Briala leave the Dalish elves to be butchered by Imshael. Like, what the hell? Even if you don't agree with the Dalish, that's no reason to sanction the complete massacre of their entire clan, women and children included! Even if the Dalish captured Celene and the others, I doubt they would have murdered them. But what do Celene and the others do? Let the entire clan be butchered, because they refuse to help. Then Gaspard comes along, and even he knows that the elves didn't deserve what they got. Even he sees it is a massacre, unlike Celene and even Briala!

 

Yeah, so I'm pretty much becoming Team Gaspard. 

 

Uh,

Spoiler

the only person who sanctioned the massacre of the Dalish Clan was Felessan. Once Michel cluelessly freed Imshael, there was nothing they could have done to help them.

[Master Warder Z_]

Look at the bright side, though, Gaspard is only able to do what he can because Prosper was Celene's strongest ally.

 

I actually sort of got sad that Prosper died when they brought up his backstory...

 

I mean until then he was just random Orelsian Nobility, now he has a story...and it ended randomly due to a dog lord that had no idea of the road this man had walked.

[wcholcombe]

He isn't fond of doing that however, beyond that if he gives his word he keeps it.

 

And also his honor doesn't just extend to "warfare or combat" he demonstrates that readily enough several times over. First of all when he allows a common soldier to challenge him for "betraying the empress" despite that battle being so far beneath his station it isn't even funny, its the future emperor of orlais vs a common scout.

 

Secondly when he kills ranmach despite there being no witness to the betrayal, he further states it was his mistake to bring him where he didn't understand the rules of the game, he doesn't bow to social whim, he enforces his own whim on society.

 

He also is apparently willing to accept a half blood on his merits as a warrior, not race.

 

All in all, he will be the best emperor since Drakon if Bioware allows it.

The scout and Ranmach are both combat/warfare examples.  He was allied with Celene and Ranmach betrayed that.  Also, the scout thing is a challenge to his honor as a chevalier.  Both are connected.  Meanwhile, his racebaiting and ambush/betrayal/attempted murder of the Empress he had sworn allegiance to shows that his honor has definite limits.

 

I dunno, George Wallace ran on an anti-segregationist platform and lost heavily.

 

What people will do to maintain power can be worse than actually believing in it.

 

Michel, after all, was the most racist chevalier that Brialla ever met.

 

Spoiler

Despite being half-elven.

I also respect Gaspard's desire to end the Game.

 

As mentioned, he's the Stannis of the setting only more politically able.

George Wallace ran on a segregationist platform. He was a race baiting demagogue who held to a time that had passed him by.  I don't see the comparison to Celene?

 

And no he isn't Stannis, Celene was the sitting Empress whom Gaspard had pledged his loyalty to, in the same position Stannis would have never betrayed her.

 

Also, I have asked repeatedly for someone to show where Gaspard says he wants to get rid of the game. He admits that Celene is better at it, but he loves playing it, and does so quite often. He even talks about enjoying playing it while attempting to murder Celene on the hunting trip.

[The Baconer]

You prefer Orlais fighting it self to fighting another kingdom?

 

Well, given that the nobles of Orlais can all drown in (urine), absolutely.

 

Aside from that, using the mages of the Circle in such a fashion is to basically say "Magic is to serve man, never to rule over him... unless by proxy". Hypocritical and heretical, to say the least.

 

I know we've already debated this issue before, but I still contend that if mages cannot be trusted to use their own magic responsibly without constant supervision, we should trust the nobility with its use (as a weapon) even less.

 

ps: why can't I use the colloquial term for urine when much worse terms are a-okay according to the filter?

[DarkKnightHolmes]

Spoiler

I rather have Gaspard on my team. When he says he'll help you, he'll stick to it. When Celene she'll help you, she'll take her time, probably screw you along the way and break every promise she's kept.

[Willowhugger]

I actually sort of got sad that Prosper died when they brought up his backstory...

 

I mean until then he was just random Orelsian Nobility, now he has a story...and it ended randomly due to a dog lord that had no idea of the road this man had walked.

 

I liked they expanded on it as it made him a more nuanced character.

 

It's another clue to Empress Celene's character, however.

Prosper died believing Celene would avenge him.

 

Empress Celene, despite everyone knowing Hawke killed Prosper, doesn't even send an assassin after you.

She just writes it off.

[wcholcombe]

You prefer Orlais fighting it self to fighting another kingdom?
 

With the pro dog lord sentiment on this forum he probably does, but I think Gaspard is mistaken if he thought the circles would have become embroiled in another invasion of Ferelden.  I know they were somewhat used against Maric in Stolen throne, but the lore has changed quite dramatically since then.

[Wissenschaft]

He views War as a unifying event and he isn't wrong.

 

Had Orlais invaded Fereldan, i do believe the issues of the white spire would have never occurred, the mages and templars would be too busy fighting a war in Fereldan to be fighting each other.

 

And Gaspard would kill elves, but he has never claimed he was a social reformer, he isn't.

 

He doesn't lie or hide behind promises of aid or assistance, He is what he is, and that honesty is what appeals to a lot of people, sure he will be an Emperor, but he will be an honest one.

 

LOL, the honest warmonger vs Celene's peaceful rule reinforced with assassins.

 

Also, Gaspard did lie sort of:

Spoiler

He lied when he told Comte Pierre that he was going to burn down Halamshiral down to ground if he didn't say where Celene fled too. Either that or he would honestly burn down a whole city, Elves and Humans alike, to get what he wanted. Which he openly states is gaining the throne for himself.

 

I'll support Celene with her focus on culture and education. Gaspard idea of going to war to prevent a templar/mage civil war wouldn't have worked anyway with hindsight since we know the elder one's machination would have intervene eventually anyway. Instead of blowing up the peace summit, who knows how much worst things would be if the veil tear happened in the middle of a war with Ferelden.
 

[Master Warder Z_]

I liked they expanded on it as it made him a more nuanced character.

 

It's another clue to Empress Celene's character, however.

Prosper died believing Celene would avenge him.

 

Empress Celene, despite everyone knowing Hawke killed Prosper, doesn't even send an assassin after you.

She just writes it off.

 

:/ And he got down his knee and swore he would see her on a throne when she was just a sixteen year old whelp who's father's and brother died.

 

****ing ****.

[Milan92]

Give Gaspard some time.  I hated him at first because he was messing with my homeboy Teagan.  And nobody messes with Teagan, no-o-o-obody!

 

But holy crap does Gaspard grow on you.  Team Gaspard 4 Lyfe.

 

He really does!

 

I felt the same at first.

[Willowhugger]

 

George Wallace ran on a segregationist platform. He was a race baiting demagogue who held to a time that had passed him by.  I don't see the comparison to Celene?

 

Sorry, I forget I'm not talking to academics. George Wallace is famous for his segregationist activities and being one of the most publicly racist politicians of all time. However, it was noted for people who studied his history and later confirmed by his advisors that George originally was anti-segregationalist but lost to segregationalist candidates. He then changed his platform to accomadate the prejudices of the Deep South and was propelled to the Governorship by race-baiting despite the fact everyone agreed this was, essentially, an act.

 

When the public mood changed, George Wallace claimed a change of heart and devoted himself to improving race-relations and apologizing for his past activities.

Something that people questioned the sincerity thereof.

On my end, I'm comfortable saying he was scum either way.
 

Which reminds me of Empress Celene. She'll save or kill elves depending on how it benefits her.

[EmperorKarino]

:/ i don't know what the french words mean (they are french right?) I took Spanish in highschool (not that i remember any of it).

 

 

I sometimes have to google words and it frustrates me D:

 

Anyway do you guys know if Celene or Gaspard will be in inquisition? I want to kill Gaspard, i only read the first two chapters and Gaspard is a tyrant like Loghain. 

 

the impression i have is that you'll be able to choose to side with Celene or Gaspard during Inquisition, i could be wrong, but the way the game is setup, it seems likely that you'll have many dealings with the orleasian crown/nobility.

[Master Warder Z_]

LOL, the honest warmonger vs Celene's peaceful rule reinforced with assassins.

 

Also, Gaspard did lie sort of:

Spoiler

He lied when he told Comte Pierre that he was going to burn down Halamshiral down to ground if he didn't say where Celene fled too. Either that or he would honestly burn down a whole city, Elves and Humans alike, to get what he wanted. Which he openly states is gaining the throne for himself.

 

You think it is better to take and hold a city that could be possibly harboring insurgents?

 

Pfft, as someone who has done that lunacy let me tell you this.

 

Our invasion would have gone a lot more smoothly if Baghdad had been a pock mark in the sand rather then a city, that had to be taken, and then held against insurgents and then have those insurgents migrate and kill forces at their desire.

 

Beyond that? The Lesson Celene taught the elves wasn't complete, Gaspard said as much.