589 réponses à ce sujet

[Beerfish]

@medhiaNox:

Wow, where to begin. Michel is the one that betrayed Celene. His duty as champion was to fight to the death for Celene, forsaken his own personal honor in favor of the empress' honor. He broken his oath to do so and thats just flat out treason. There shouldn't even be a civil war going on anymore.

On top of this he was flat out stupid as well as being a traitor.  "I have to hold out a promise I made to an elf under black mail and duress above my oath as s chevalier and sworn protector of the empress.  Now after doing this I'll within 5 flat seconds fess up the reason why I made such a deal with the elf.  What a bone head that guy is  (nor to mention is little arch demon oopsie)

[Wissenschaft]

I did post again, several arguments went on in that time.

 

Oh so you did. LOL. Herp a Derpy derp. lol

[wright1978]

I fully accept the notion that Michel is an idiot. I fully understand and accept his reasons for not breaking his oath to Briala though.

[Willowhugger]

On top of this he was flat out stupid as well as being a traitor.  "I have to hold out a promise I made to an elf under black mail and duress above my oath as s chevalier and sworn protector of the empress.  Now after doing this I'll within 5 flat seconds fess up the reason why I made such a deal with the elf.  What a bone head that guy is  (nor to mention is little arch demon oopsie)

 

To be fair, Michel's entire existence is absurd since he's holding to honor as a chevelier whose status he got under fraud and murder.

[Master Warder Z_]

and murder.

 

Murder?

 

Murder of whom?

[Medhia_Nox]

"How convenient for you," Celene said, and attacked.

His mailed arm knocked her strike aside, and with a grunt of effort, Gaspard lunged up and threw an elbow that caught Celene in the gut and sent her stumbling back.

 

"I'm hurt, cousin.  Not dead."  He leaned on the bench, teeth clenched. "And you gave your champion all the pretty little rings you wear to cover the fact that you never had to learn to fight properly."  - The Masked Empire, Patrick Weekes, pg 363

 

I'm not the one inventing anything... she was adept at any form of combat solely because of her rings - that's not strength to me. 

 

====

 

@Beerfish:  But it's okay for Empresses to betray anyone and everyone that suits them yeah?

 

Please, right before the fight she's blathering on stupidly about how much she owes Michel and how he's so honorable... of course, it's great he's so honorable when it suits her. 

 

"But I will do my best to prove myself a man of my word."

 

"You always are.  And when I reclaim my throne, I will owe it to you, my champion." The Masked Empire, Patrick Weekes, pg 344

 

Of course, then there's the entirely spoiled:

 

Universities whose libraries were filled to bursting.  Restored roads busy with richly loaded wagons.  Elves in the markets, smiling as they served the greatest empire in the world.  A cup of hot tea served every morning before sunrise.  Small, strong fingers gently peeling the mask from her face.

 

Two words from her champion dashed a hundred dreams. The Masked Empire, Patrick Weekes, pg 360

 

The woman has her head so far up her arse.  Libraries?  Oh, nice.  Restored roads and commerce... cool.  Elves smiling... delusional and naive, but sure!  A cup of hot tea and her girlfriend peeling off her mask?  You really are just a spoiled little princess Celene.  She's the most impractical ruler ever... just dreaming about how great it's going to be when she FINALLY has the courage to do something except screw everything up (which, now that she's gotten rid of Briala and Michel, she won't be able to help herself in destroying Orlais).

 

To quote something else:  "I want the world, I want the whole world.  I want to wrap it all up in my pocket, it's my bar of chocolate. Give it to me NOW!"  Varuca Salt, Willy Wonka

 

No, not trying to convince anyone of anything... just giving reasons why I see her the way I do.  Not that any of it matters. 

[Willowhugger]

Murder?

 

Murder of whom?

"Real people?"

"No, just elves."

[Master Warder Z_]

"Real people?"

"No, just elves."

 

Oh that initiation ritual.

 

I thought you meant something important.

[Grand Admiral Cheesecake]

"Real people?"

"No, just elves."

 

Nothing to be concerned about then.

[wcholcombe]

"How convenient for you," Celene said, and attacked.
His mailed arm knocked her strike aside, and with a grunt of effort, Gaspard lunged up and threw an elbow that caught Celene in the gut and sent her stumbling back.

"I'm hurt, cousin. Not dead." He leaned on the bench, teeth clenched. "And you gave your champion all the pretty little rings you wear to cover the fact that you never had to learn to fight properly." - The Masked Empire, Patrick Weekes, pg 363

I'm not the one inventing anything... she was adept at any form of combat solely because of her rings - that's not strength to me.

====

@Beerfish: But it's okay for Empresses to betray anyone and everyone that suits them yeah?

Please, right before the fight she's blathering on stupidly about how much she owes Michel and how he's so honorable... of course, it's great he's so honorable when it suits her.

"But I will do my best to prove myself a man of my word."

"You always are. And when I reclaim my throne, I will owe it to you, my champion." The Masked Empire, Patrick Weekes, pg 344

Of course, then there's the entirely spoiled:

Universities whose libraries were filled to bursting. Restored roads busy with richly loaded wagons. Elves in the markets, smiling as they served the greatest empire in the world. A cup of hot tea served every morning before sunrise. Small, strong fingers gently peeling the mask from her face.

Two words from her champion dashed a hundred dreams. The Masked Empire, Patrick Weekes, pg 360

The woman has her head so far up her arse. Libraries? Oh, nice. Restored roads and commerce... cool. Elves smiling... delusional and naive, but sure! A cup of hot tea and her girlfriend peeling off her mask? You really are just a spoiled little princess Celene. She's the most impractical ruler ever... just dreaming about how great it's going to be when she FINALLY has the courage to do something except screw everything up (which, now that she's gotten rid of Briala and Michel, she won't be able to help herself in destroying Orlais).

To quote something else: "I want the world, I want the whole world. I want to wrap it all up in my pocket, it's my bar of chocolate. Give it to me NOW!" Varuca Salt, Willy Wonka

No, not trying to convince anyone of anything... just giving reasons why I see her the way I do. Not that any of it matters.

She was trained as a Bard, she fights differently then Gaspard.

That passage right there shows you what Celenes focus was on. Improving the culture, the roads, and making the elves part of the empire.

As for Michel, of course she said all that when he was going to kill Gaspard, sparing him was an utter betrayal of his duty to her. He prolonged the civil war for an oath that was made under duress. He should have killed Gaspard and then if his honor was so besmirched he could have taken his own life.

[Wissenschaft]

Clearly these chevalier could learn a thing or two from the Bushido.

[Willowhugger]

Clearly these chevalier could learn a thing or two from the Bushido.

 

Don't do any actual fighting but talk a lot about it?

[Wissenschaft]

Don't actually do any fighting but talk about about it?

 

lol, I thought that was the french way of fighting.....*cough*

[Willowhugger]

 

That passage right there shows you what Celenes focus was on. Improving the culture, the roads, and making the elves part of the empire.

 

I liked Celene's racism in that scenario.

The elves are all perfectly content with how benevolent she treats them.

 

They're her adorable plucky little children led along.

Glad they have such a wonderful master.

She's a very realistic depiction of how many Imperialists were.

[Fredward]

Did you just ignore the OP then?

 

Actually I did read the OP. Then I read the first page which seemed to have very little to do with the OP and was more about Celene vs Gaspard which interested me more anyway. Then I skipped to the last page. Then I posted. Then I noticed that the conversation seemed to have transmuted to something else again because evidently it's more like a confluence of everything vaguely Celene/Gaspard related.

[Chari]

To be frank the only main character I liked from the beginning till the very end was Felassan
I felt a strong need to beat up every other main character with a heavy slipper. Especially Celene and Michel

[Ajna]

I stick by my feelings of hating the pair of them.

[Mistic]

She was trained as a Bard, she fights differently then Gaspard.

 

Yep, it's like condemning a rogue Warden or Hawke for using rings and amulets and launching surprise attacks and trying to backstab their opponent for massive damage instead of, you know, fighting face to face like a Warrior Tank.

[Augustei]

Bhelen for the Dwarves! Gaspard for Orlais! Slowly but surely we'll put competent people on the thrones of Thedas!

Bhelen for Thedas would be better however.... Ah, one can dream =)

[Grand Admiral Cheesecake]

Bhelen for Thedas would be better however.... Ah, one can dream =)

 

Bhelen is the king Thedas deserves and the one it needs right now.

[Mistic]

I wonder if people realize that Bhelen is more similar to Celene than to Gaspard. Both conspired to take the throne, although in the end need help from others to get the crown. Both are in a relationship with a woman who their society despises. Both believe in having good, profitable relationships with other countries. Both believe that honour and tradition are just obstacles in the way of progress. Both are willing to give more rights and opportunities to the lower caste, even if that angers the nobility and the specialized warrior caste. However, they aren't above making deals, betraying others and manipulating useful pawns if that's what it takes to keep their power.

[Medhia_Nox]

@wcholcombe:  I understand that because she's trained as a lying, deceitful manipulator that she can't be held to notions other people should.  However, if you're going to be a complete scumbag... you really should be good at it.  Briala sees through her deceptions, Michel sees the level to which she is committed to herself alone.

 

It's interesting that you put Michel's status as a champion over his honor as a person.  Yet Celene, the least honorable of the bunch seems like a totally great gal.

 

Michel:  "I have to come clean and confess who I am and face the penalties for it."
Celene:  "I totally just betrayed love because it inconvenienced me, and loyalty because of one act that inconveniences me.  But hey, I'm a bard - so it's totally cool."

I was very clear.  Sneaks and liars and manipulators disgust me - I don't even really use rogues in my party because I despise what a rogue is.  If I do use them it's for things like archery - or dextrous combat.  That's personal opinion - which I stated was one of my main reasons for disliking her.  It's not right - or wrong - just "is".

 

And it doesn't bother you that "knowledge" "commerce" and "smiling elves" is coupled with HER "luxury" and "her happiness"?  They rank on the same level in her mind.  Not to mention how delusional her vision is of the first three topics.  It's not some reasonable statement she's making here - it's literally the MOST idealistic version of those concepts.  To me - she's just playing at Empress - never doing anything but securing her own safety while talking a good game about reform and growth. 

 

There's really nothing more for me to contribute to the thread.  I sided with Celene at the end of the book because she's the underdog (in her current situation) - she's lost all her allies and her backs against a wall.

 

Then... I realized there's a REASON she has Gaspard hounding her and her closest allies are now her enemies. 

 

IF we get to chose - she won't be ruling the Orlais of my Thedas.

 

@Mistic:  Dwarven culture is built around it... and it's in your face.  "I will manipulate to gain power." is dwarven.

 

Celene says: "I love you Briala" and then tries to get her killed by the Varterral - just re-read that passage.  Going back and reading some of TME knowing what happens at the end... Celene was using her the entire time.  Then it's all:  "You're my champion!  You're the BEST MAN THERE IS!"  OH, you didn't secure my throne because I'm too weak and useless to do it myself?  Well, not even a shred of understanding for you pitiful underling.

 

She portrays herself as one thing - and is another. 

Bhelen doesn't sit on pretense.  There is a difference to me.

[Grand Admiral Cheesecake]

 

She portrays herself as one thing - and is another. 

Bhelen doesn't sit on pretense.  There is a different to me.

 

Aaaand Bhelen is strong enough for force his reforms through come what may.

 

Celene folds at the first sign of opposition.

[Medhia_Nox]

And she is dumb enough to believe the elves will still love her after what she did.  Gaspard calls her out on it, and she's still like: "Oh, well - I'm Celene and I like pretty things and comfort and reading!  Of course the elves will totally love me!" 

 

She might actually be insane.