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[wright1978]

Aaaand Bhelen is strong enough for force his reforms through come what may.

 

Celene folds at the first sign of opposition.

 

Indeed she's incredibly weak in this sense imo.

[Willowhugger]

Bhelen is the king Thedas deserves and the one it needs right now.

 

Sadly, if Thedas follows its historical roots, Bhelen does an immense amount of good for Thedas and dies at a ripe old age.

Then his son is a complete moron or psychopath with no one to stop him.

See Emperor Augustus and later successors.

 

[Willowhugger]

she is just very arrogant and stupid

basically the opposite of Gaspard who may be cold and ruthless but at least he doesn't sugercoat it

 

Celene is very much a deconstruction of the High Queen who rules through love and affection. The problems she has aren't weakness, the problems she has are that what happens if you don't accept her sugary-yummy personality get the ax.

[Grand Admiral Cheesecake]

Sadly, if Thedas follows its historical roots, Bhelen does an immense amount of good for Thedas and dies at a ripe old age.

Then his son is a complete moron or psychopath with no one to stop him.

See Emperor Augustus and later successors.

 

Oh that's an exaggeration and you know it. It will be in the third generation at the earliest.

 

Besides Bhelen is too much mah broseph to raise his heir as anything but another far seeing magnificent bastard.

[Spaghetti_Ninja]

Aaaand Bhelen is strong enough for force his reforms through come what may.

 

Celene folds at the first sign of opposition.

 

This.

 

There are some superficial similarities between Bhelen and Celene, but - just like Gaspard - Bhelen sticks to his guns and does what he wants without compromise. Bhelen didn't care that the noble and warrior caste hated him. Celene DOES. Celene compromises her goals at every turn, she doesn't have the backbone and conviction that Bhelen has.

[Br3admax]

Bhelen is the king Thedas deserves and the one it needs right now.

 

How about Bhelen stay in his blight infested, literal hell hole, and leaves the surface to the big dogs who can actually reach the throne to sit on it. 

[Willowhugger]

This.

 

There are some superficial similarities between Bhelen and Celene, but - just like Gaspard - Bhelen sticks to his guns and does what he wants without compromise. Bhelen didn't care that the noble and warrior caste hated him. Celene DOES. Celene compromises her goals at every turn, she doesn't have the backbone and conviction that Bhelen has.

 

They're kind of the reversed mirror images of Bhelen and Harrowmount.

 

Celene has all of Bhelen's political skill and reformation-minded policies but none of the conviction plus a heaping dose of paternalist classicism.

 

Which you'd think Bhelen would be dripping with.

 

Gaspard has all of Harrowmount's traditionalism and conservativism but also has a bunch of Bhelen's political skill. He's also arguably less racist than Celene even though he's as racist as most Orlesians nobles (which is to say, very).

Celene sees the elves as pretty little dolls to play dress-up with and have sex with.

 

Gaspard sees them as lesser beings who would slit his throat if they weren't kept down.

[Hydwn]

So I'm guessing if there's an option to marry Celene and Gaspard, Alistair-and-Anora style, none of you will take it?

 

I mean, they rejected that in Masked Empire, but multiple civil wars, supernatural calamities, and revolutions have a way of forcing issues like that... 

[Willowhugger]

So I'm guessing if there's an option to marry Celene and Gaspard, Alistair-and-Anora style, none of you will take it?

 

I mean, they rejected that in Masked Empire, but multiple civil wars, supernatural calamities, and revolutions have a way of forcing issues like that... 

 

A lesbian Empress racist social-reformer and a warhawk conservative old man.

Sadly, better than some historical political marriages.

[raging_monkey]

So what ive gathered
Celene's either incompetant or such a compromiser that she holds nothing value and wears a "mask" showing what is ideal but is just as bad as most orlaisians

Gaspard: has honour restricted to combat and war. Doesnt hide his faults and from my interpetation accepts them. This makes him the "best" choice for orlais.

Read TME twice and im suprised by the fan polarized factions

[Willowhugger]

So what ive gathered
Celene's either incompetant or such a compromiser that she holds nothing value and wears a "mask" showing what is ideal but is just as bad as most orlaisians

Gaspard: has honour restricted to combat and war. Doesnt hide his faults and from my interpetation accepts them. This makes him the "best" choice for orlais.

Read TME twice and im suprised by the fan polarized factions

 

It shows Bioware and Patrick, in particular did a good job.

 

Like sparing Loghain, there's no right choice.

[Mistic]

Gaspard has all of Harrowmount's traditionalism and conservativism but also has a bunch of Bhelen's political skill. He's also arguably less racist than Celene even though he's as racist as most Orlesians nobles (which is to say, very).

Celene sees the elves as pretty little dolls to play dress-up with and have sex with.

 

Gaspard sees them as lesser beings who would slit his throat if they weren't kept down.

 

Although I agree with your comparison of Bhelen/Harrowmont-Celene/Gaspard, how can Celene be more racist than her rival?

[AshesEleven]

Why not?

 

Florian seemed to do whatever he wanted, his depravities were famous, his taxes high, and no rebellion occurred until Celene prompted it.

 

I think you and other Celene fans just won't admit she is dominated by the game, rather then attempting to dominate the game.

 

Gaspard makes the game work for him, he doesn't work for it.

 

Not a Celene fan.  But it's not so black and white as "Celene lets the game dominate her completely, she's weak."

 

But going against centuries of institutionalized racism is a little harder than one may think.

 

Y'all seem to be taking one person's side completely without admitting that person has faults.  The great thing about Masked Empire is that none of the characters are good or bad; they're all flawed and nuanced.  Reducing them to "Celene is a bad empress, that's the end of it" takes all the joy out of Patrick Weekes' work.  

[Willowhugger]

Although I agree with your comparison of Bhelen/Harrowmont-Celene/Gaspard, how can Celene be more racist than her rival?

 

I think it's a general point that Gaspard is aware the elves are people with their own opinions, distaste with their place in society, and ambitions. He's oppressing the elves but he has no illusions they're less than people.

Less than him? Yes.

But he understands them as adult thinking beings.

 

Celene has an infantalizing view of them.

 

Celene might be less brutal on them but is going to get angry and upset whenever they don't act like she's their White SaviorTM.

Weirdly, Celene has a lot of historical antecedents with British women who had influence on the Empire's handling of natives.

[raging_monkey]

Although I agree with your comparison of Bhelen/Harrowmont-Celene/Gaspard, how can Celene be more racist than her rival?

just cause you date a elf doesnt mean you cant hold some bias (that was a joke)

[Willowhugger]

Not a Celene fan.  But it's not so black and white as "Celene lets the game dominate her completely, she's weak."

 

But going against centuries of institutionalized racism is a little harder than one may think.

 

Y'all seem to be taking one person's side completely without admitting that person has faults.  The great thing about Masked Empire is that none of the characters are good or bad; they're all flawed and nuanced.  Reducing them to "Celene is a bad empress, that's the end of it" takes all the joy out of Patrick Weekes' work.  

 

I'm not sure this is right.

I think Gaspard is scum.

 

A horrible horrible person.

 

And I'd probably fight him as a villain in another game.

However, if I have a choice, I put him over Celene.

 

A person who I despise even though I recognize she might actually turn out to be better for the Orlesians in the long run.

[Hydwn]

A lesbian Empress racist social-reformer and a warhawk conservative old man.

Sadly, better than some historical political marriages.

 

Indeed.  Noble marriage was usually for treaty or political reasons of some kind, and Celene had considered pursuing Cailan, and even considered Gaspard at one point.  Plus, she's expected to produce an heir of some kind.  

 

I wonder what would happen to her position if she married...?  Orlais may be based off Louis-XIV-era France, but they had no female rulers.  She seems a lot more like the slightly earlier Elizabeth I, who never married because the king would have power over her (the British monarches finally solved that problem by inventing the title of prince consort as a match for queen regnant).  

 

I don't think we've ever found out the mechanics of this stuff in Dragon Age world.  Would Celene be a queen regnant with a husband who was a prince consort?  Or would her partner replace her as the regnant monarch...? 

[AshesEleven]

I'm not sure this is right.

I think Gaspard is scum.

 

A horrible horrible person.

 

And I'd probably fight him as a villain in another game.

However, if I have a choice, I put him over Celene.

 

A person who I despise even though I recognize she might actually turn out to be better for the Orlesians in the long run.

 

And I'll probably doing the same.  And I think Celene has shown to be a bit of a dunce.  But I also appreciate that she's in a difficult position, and it's way easier for Gaspard to challenge her rule than it is for her to keep it.  

[Mistic]

I think it's a general point that Gaspard is aware the elves are people with their own opinions, distaste with their place in society, and ambitions. He's oppressing the elves but he has no illusions they're less than people.

Less than him? Yes.

But he understands them as adult thinking beings.

 

Celene has an infantalizing view of them.

 

Celene might be less brutal on them but is going to get angry and upset whenever they don't act like she's their White SaviorTM.

Weirdly, Celene has a lot of historical antecedents with British women who had influence on the Empire's handling of natives.

 

I see your point. Celene is a condescending do-gooder. Nevertheless, I still don't see it being more racist than what Gaspard does. Hypocrisy hurts our honesty-loving feelings, but being honest about horrible ideas is more terrifying.

 

But going against centuries of institutionalized racism is a little harder than one may think.

 

True. Bhelen's reforms worked in the end because he had the lower castes with him. Ad I'm not talking about popularity, through the merchant caste he gets money, and allowing casteless to enter the army provides him with soldiers that will remember how awesome their new king is, and how quickly they would lose those rights if he loses his power. Also, Orzammar is just a city, easier to control than the largest nation in Thedas.

[Willowhugger]

I don't think we've ever found out the mechanics of this stuff in Dragon Age world.  Would Celene be a queen regnant with a husband who was a prince consort?  Or would her partner replace her as the regnant monarch...? 

 

Anora says the title of Prince Consort exists in the Dragon Age world.

 

However, the Warden epilogue says he can force the issue.

However, that may be because Anora has no legal claim to the throne other than as Teyrness of Gwaren.

[Willowhugger]

 

I see your point. Celene is a condescending do-gooder. Nevertheless, I still don't see it being more racist than what Gaspard does. Hypocrisy hurts our honesty-loving feelings, but being honest about horrible ideas is more terrifying.

 

Maybe, I'm also worried about Celene's focus on the elven cause inviting her to do far-worse reprisals than Gaspard as a way to overcompensate.

 

Oh well, we won't find out what the "right" choice (if any) is until Inquisition.

[Hydwn]

Anora says the title of Prince Consort exists in the Dragon Age world.

 

However, the Warden epilogue says he can force the issue.

However, that may be because Anora has no legal claim to the throne other than as Teyrness of Gwaren.

 

So it's like the modern British system.  Good to know.  My only Cousland to ascend the throne married Alistair, so I didn't know this

 

But medieval France and medieval Britain already different succession laws (France said no woman could rule and Britain said they could if they had no living brothers), so there's no way to know for sure how Orlais works.

[Willowhugger]

Speaking of which, random factoid, if you're marrying Anora then don't take the "Land and Title" boon.

It's kind of pointless given your children will be inheriting Gwaren anyway.

[Willowhugger]

So it's like the modern British system.  Good to know.  My only Cousland to ascend the throne married Alistair, so I didn't know this

 

But medieval France and medieval Britain already different succession laws (France said no woman could rule and Britain said they could if they had no living brothers), so there's no way to know for sure how Orlais works.

 

Duke Gaspard's proposal was actually made in the book, I think, which was that it would be a informal treaty between the two. Duke Gaspard would maintain control of Orlais' armies and military strength while Celene would handle their domestic affairs and presumably fund his military adventurism. I also imagine he would have the title of Emperor as well and they'd theoretically be equals.

 

This was actually my headcanon proposal for my Cousland Warden and Anora.