I feel less intelligent just by reading this post...
But you didn't feel less intelligent by saying the wrong thing and regurgitating propaganda. Or when you thought a fledgling Inquisitions would somehow convince Thedas to let it be the new military powerhouse. I don't know what you think intelligence means, but it certainly isn't the definition of the word.
Except that doesn't happen and the Chantry didn't force anyone to convert.
The Dalish were the elves who evaded Chantry forces to live out their lives in freedom, and are essentially outlaws due to their adherence to their culture and religion.
Except they're still allowed to be elven. They chose to convert and live in alienages. No one forced them too. Before that they were content murdering people.
The Chantry outlawed the elven religion, and their templars pursue elven mages within the Dalish clans. There are at least two conflicting historical accounts about who started the war.
Except Rivain the country decided to do this, not the Chantry as a whole. Even now, the Riviani still have a large Qunari population.
Foreign Seekers from the Chantry who investigated the Circle of Dairsmuid were the ones who ended up annulling the Circle.
You might be thinking about the incident with the Rivain Chantry and nationalist forces attacking Rivaini who converted to the Qun. As Sister Petrine noted, "It's worth noting, however, that the Kingdom of Rivain immediately violated the treaty. Twice. Once, when the humans of northern Rivain - nearly all practitioners of the Qun and therefore by definition, 'Qunari' - refused to leave their homes and go in exile to the islands. And again, when the Rivain Chantry and nationalist forces, unable to convert its people back to the worship of the Maker, tried a purge by the sword, slaughtering countless unarmed people and burying them in mass graves. It's a fortunate mystery that the leaders in Kont-aar did not alert their allies in the Northern Passage, or we'd still be fighting the giants now."
Also, the problem of the chantry isn't them being able to raise a military force or anything like that, it is that the leadership is stocked with hard liners (guess what the majority of them go boom) and they have too close of an association with Orlais(real or percieved doesn't matter). What you need is for the Chantry to get new blood into leadership and function as a truely independent multinational entity for Thedas.
And no, the idea of the inquisition feeling this role is bad on so many levels. There is nothing guiding or restricting the inquisition or its actions. The Inquisitor is in many ways a warlord with an army bound by nothing but his personal beliefs and goals. The Chantry by following its own tenents and not getting caught up in some of the over conservativism of its leadership is in a great position to expand its influence and be very beneficial to Thedas, if it will just get out of its own way.
As I said, earlier in this post, I think a reformed Chantry will rise up stronger then the previously existing one. Independent of association with Orlais, still controlling the circles, but modernized heavily in the spirit of the wishes of Justinia with the removal of many of the hard liners, and a sympathetic wish to fulfill the wishes and goals of their fallen divine.
I hope you're wrong. The Chantry having any degree of control or authority over the Circles isn't an outcome I'd wish to pursue, and it would effectively make our choices meaningless if the status quo was reinstated, no matter what we did. I'd much rather see Inquisition provide pro-mage and pro-templar players with an opportunity to pursue their respective paths, without either side being railroaded into an outcome that makes our actions entirely meaningless by forcing the mages back into an institution that some of us strongly oppose.
I actually think Lob, that if the whole dust up with the templars and mages in Asunder hadn't occurred, you would have been quite the fan of what Justinia had planned for the Chantry.
Even though I lean towards a Libertarian position? Why do you think I would've liked her proposal? I'm genuinely curious.
The Dalish were the elves who evaded Chantry forces to live out their lives in freedom, and are essentially outlaws due to their adherence to their culture and religion.
They're essentially outlaws because they murder people. You're famous for ignoring every crime they commit, let's be real.
The Chantry outlawed the elven religion, and their templars pursue elven mages within the Dalish clans. There are at least two conflicting historical accounts about who started the war.
Not only is this not true, since Merrill states that the Templars know of Dalish Keepers, the only incident seen in game of a Templar going to the Dalsih came from when an apostate ran away from the Circle, not because he was elven or Dalish, but because he was an escaped mage. Elves also still practice their cultural traditions in the Alienage, so I'm seeing little to show that the Chantry forces them to do anything.
Foreign Seekers from the Chantry who investigated the Circle of Dairsmuid were the ones who ended up annulling the Circle.
Because they were breaking the law by inviting "spirits" to posses them. I see no problem with them destroying abominations. But more to the point, I was speaking of the culling Rivain did against it's own people after the qunari came. The annulling of the Circle had nothing to do with Andrastianism and more to do with the danger that all abominations bring to Thedas.
*snip*
I was, more to the point that the Chantry has forced no one to convert to anything. I've seen no evidence for it happening, now or then. Only the people of Thedas proper, not the Chantry as a whole.
The annulling of the Circle had nothing to do with Andrastianism and more to do with the danger that all abominations bring to Thedas.
The Dairsmuid circle was perfectly fine, until the Seekers decided to destroy it because it didn't fit in their narrow conception of magic.
They're essentially outlaws because they murder people. You're famous for ignoring every crime they commit, let's be real.
Not only is this not true, since Merrill states that the Templars know of Dalish Keepers, the only incident seen in game of a Templar going to the Dalsih came from when an apostate ran away from the Circle, not because he was elven or Dalish, but because he was an escaped mage. Elves also still practice their cultural traditions in the Alienage, so I'm seeing little to show that the Chantry forces them to do anything.
Because they were breaking the law by inviting "spirits" to posses them. I see no problem with them destroying abominations. But more to the point, I was speaking of the culling Rivain did against it's own people after the qunari came. The annulling of the Circle had nothing to do with Andrastianism and more to do with the danger that all abominations bring to Thedas.
I was, more to the point that the Chantry has forced no one to convert to anything. I've seen no evidence for it happening, now or then. Only the people of Thedas proper, not the Chantry as a whole.
The members of the Chantry also murder people. Shouldn't we outlow them as an organization as well?
And she also states the dalish can't stay in one place for too long because of that very reason. Convenient how you forget to mention that.
Elves can't worship their old deities without persecution, and the original point was of elves practicing their religion, not their culture.
Wich is an shallow excuse considering said abominations were living in peace with the population as far as we know, and there was no violence there until the Seekers came. Or have you forgotten Wynne as an abomination was no harm to the people around her?
You can easily say what you want. But I can I also say I see the Chantry forcing their beliefs on everyone around them, and so far I see no evidence of the contrary.
They're essentially outlaws because they murder people. You're famous for ignoring every crime they commit, let's be real.
Considering you're ignoring how developers like Gaider have pointed out most clans actually avoid Andrastian humans, I'd refrain from taking that approach with me. The clans usually avoid contact with Andrastian humans; this is even mentioned in the codex entries.
Not only is this not true, since Merrill states that the Templars know of Dalish Keepers, the only incident seen in game of a Templar going to the Dalsih came from when an apostate ran away from the Circle, not because he was elven or Dalish, but because he was an escaped mage. Elves also still practice their cultural traditions in the Alienage, so I'm seeing little to show that the Chantry forces them to do anything.
You're ignoring how Merrill explains that templars pursuing the clans are part of the reason why the Dalish are nomadic. Ariane also protected her clan from a templar. Even the Bioware Blog mentions that templars have been known to pursue Dalish mages: "The Keeper that leads each clan also further increases tensions with the Chantry. Apprenticed from a young age, Keepers maintain the traditions of elven magic and pass down their knowledge in turn. The Chantry regards all Keepers as apostates, mages who operate outside of the Circle of Magi, but unlike rogue mages from human society who are quickly hunted down by the templar orders, the Keepers are not so easily taken. Pity the templar who takes it into his heart to track the Dalish into the forests, thinking to take the leader of a clan prisoner."
Because they were breaking the law by inviting "spirits" to posses them. I see no problem with them destroying abominations. But more to the point, I was speaking of the culling Rivain did against it's own people after the qunari came. The annulling of the Circle had nothing to do with Andrastianism and more to do with the danger that all abominations bring to Thedas.
You were responding to a post addressing foreign Seekers who annulled the Circle of Dairsmuid.
Considering you're ignoring how developers like Gaider have pointed out most clans actually avoid Andrastian humans
Except when they murder people, which you tend to ignore.
._. It's sort of like how Mobius explained the wizard of oz in fallout.
"It didn't stop them from murdering people."
I hope you're wrong. The Chantry having any degree of control or authority over the Circles isn't an outcome I'd wish to pursue, and it would effectively make our choices meaningless if the status quo was reinstated, no matter what we did. I'd much rather see Inquisition provide pro-mage and pro-templar players with an opportunity to pursue their respective paths, without either side being railroaded into an outcome that makes our actions entirely meaningless by forcing the mages back into an institution that some of us strongly oppose.
Even though I lean towards a Libertarian position? Why do you think I would've liked her proposal? I'm genuinely curious.
Because I think ultimately the steps she would have taken with regards to mages and the Chantry as a whole would have removed or addressed the majority of issues you had with it.
Seriously, if her reformation resulted in Templar hard liners being replaced with ones who adhered more to the protect mages while also protecting others from the abuses of magic, and that magic is a gift from the maker not a curse, and made the mage/templar relationship into a cooperative partnership instead of what it had become, what true and honest complaints would you have? Other then the fact that it was the chantry doing it. I also figure she would reforming other aspects of the Chantry such as treatment of elves and other races. She seems to have a great deal in common with Celene on how she views things and if she is going to be reforming the circles, I would truly expect her to reform other parts of the chantry as well. I truly think she LBJ'd her predecessor and others into thinking she was conservatively minded and turned out to be possibly the most liberal minded divine in history....sadly due to the machinations of some, we will likely never learn what her overall plan was.
The mages can't police themselves, nor can they be intrusted to the countries the circles are in. You need a multinational force to oversee them, and if the chantry was truly reformed with regards to its most present failings(such as wiping out the hardliner elements of the templars, circles, and chantry---oh look big boom might do a lot of that)-and distance itself from orlais some(and with orlais in the situation it is in, that is possible), they would be in a perfect position to do that.
I don't think it is shoehorning or removing choice, but there has to be some synergy to the issues being faced. Leaving it totally up to the player to either kill all mages, kill all templars, mage independence, etc etc is too big a gap for continuity. The only way it would work is if we didn't play in Chantry controlled lands again for several games and then when we came back, the loose ends had been tied up off screen, which effectively would make your choices meaningless anyway. Its like in DAO, there were restrictions- We had to have a king for Orzammar, we had to pick someone to rule, we had to stop the blight and save Ferelden. The idea that we will be able to make such massive world scale changes that can be so dramatically different from one play through to the other would only be feasible in a stand alone game, or the final installment in a series. What you are asking for Pro Templar- Pro Chantry- Pro Mage endings is the equivalent of asking DAO to have allowed for you to either stopped the blight at Ostagar saving Cailan and Duncan, stopped it at Denerim like you did, or joined the blight and conquered all of Southern Thedas under the horde and now you have to incorporate all three of those endings into DAI.
I don't think it is shoehorning or removing choice, but there has to be some synergy to the issues being faced. Leaving it totally up to the player to either kill all mages, kill all templars, mage independence, etc etc is too big a gap for continuity. The only way it would work is if we didn't play in Chantry controlled lands again for several games and then when we came back, the loose ends had been tied up off screen, which effectively would make your choices meaningless anyway. Its like in DAO, there were restrictions- We had to have a king for Orzammar, we had to pick someone to rule, we had to stop the blight and save Ferelden. The idea that we will be able to make such massive world scale changes that can be so dramatically different from one play through to the other would only be feasible in a stand alone game, or the final installment in a series. What you are asking for Pro Templar- Pro Chantry- Pro Mage endings is the equivalent of asking DAO to have allowed for you to either stopped the blight at Ostagar saving Cailan and Duncan, stopped it at Denerim like you did, or joined the blight and conquered all of Southern Thedas under the horde and now you have to incorporate all three of those endings into DAI.
To be honest this is a reason why they should stop with import as they rly can't handle import and only reduces freedom in games and ultimately makes your choices pretty irrelevant anyway.
To be honest this is a reason why they should stop with import as they rly can't handle import and only reduces freedom in games and ultimately makes your choices pretty irrelevant anyway.
Import doesn't matter. People would still expect their major choices to be reflected in the sequels. Elder Scrolls deals with this by having the games more or less have no true connection do to time and distance, most JRPGs deal with this by the games not being tied together or scripting everythign to the degree that the stories are all the same, Fallout handles it by disconnecting events.
Just getting rid of importing won't address the issue.
If you played DAI and there was no import for DA4, you would still expect your destruction of the mages by the templars in DAI to be reflected in events in DA4 would you not?
Game developers, especially good ones, are loth to say all that stuff you did in the last game doesn't matter.
Import doesn't matter. People would still expect their major choices to be reflected in the sequels. Elder Scrolls deals with this by having the games more or less have no true connection do to time and distance, most JRPGs deal with this by the games not being tied together or scripting everythign to the degree that the stories are all the same, Fallout handles it by disconnecting events.
Just getting rid of importing won't address the issue.
To be honest TES didn't had that many choices and skyrim pretty much tell us a little about champion (previous protagonist) same for fallout series hell even dev said he wanted option to nuke NCR because it was becoming too big and too civilized for series.
For example despite you can import save (character) from nwn 2 to expansion but expansion follows "good" ending not "evil" ending even if you play as evil character.
If they put off import now there would be a lot complains but game would only benefit from it as they wouldn't have to put "you can't do that because it will be too hard pull in next game".
They're essentially outlaws because they murder people. You're famous for ignoring every crime they commit, let's be real.
Who did the Dalish murder that makes them such a threat that and labels them all as bandits? I recall that Ariane defended her Keeper, Solan, from a belligerent Templar but spared him and took his gauntlets as a trophy.Because they were breaking the law by inviting "spirits" to posses them. I see no problem with them destroying abominations. But more to the point, I was speaking of the culling Rivain did against it's own people after the qunari came. The annulling of the Circle had nothing to do with Andrastianism and more to do with the danger that all abominations bring to Thedas.
As we've seen from Wynne, Cole and probably will see from Solas, not all spirits are harmful. And the fact of the matter is the Chantry had no right to destroy them for practicing their customs, or even judge them for what their customs may be.
It is quite possible that the Inquisition will be replacing the Chantry entirely. I mean just think about it. Chantry leadership is destroyed, all of it's remaining resources and authority is given over to you and the world is now looking for you to restore order and protect them from the chaos were the Chantry has failed.
And the First Inquisition predates the Chantry. It was a loose association of Andrastian-hardliners yes, but they didn't answer to any Divine or was necessarily completely made of Andrastians. In the beginning of the Divine age the newly founded Chantry made cause with the Inquisition and together they signed the Nevarran Accord as a means to try and find a balance.
But now that the Chantry has fallen to pieces and Inquisition has been reinstated, perhaps one of the choices you can make later in the game is deciding whether or not to return authority back to the Chantry or have the Inquisition remain in power.
I don't think it is shoehorning or removing choice, but there has to be some synergy to the issues being faced. Leaving it totally up to the player to either kill all mages, kill all templars, mage independence, etc etc is too big a gap for continuity. The only way it would work is if we didn't play in Chantry controlled lands again for several games and then when we came back, the loose ends had been tied up off screen, which effectively would make your choices meaningless anyway. Its like in DAO, there were restrictions- We had to have a king for Orzammar, we had to pick someone to rule, we had to stop the blight and save Ferelden. The idea that we will be able to make such massive world scale changes that can be so dramatically different from one play through to the other would only be feasible in a stand alone game, or the final installment in a series. What you are asking for Pro Templar- Pro Chantry- Pro Mage endings is the equivalent of asking DAO to have allowed for you to either stopped the blight at Ostagar saving Cailan and Duncan, stopped it at Denerim like you did, or joined the blight and conquered all of Southern Thedas under the horde and now you have to incorporate all three of those endings into DAI.
I think so too. The Warden and Hawke did many good and/or important things during the game. However, despite many players' wishes, those aren't the relationships with the companions, who they chose as ruler in whatever kingdom, or which side they supported.
No, the important things are already scripted:
-The Warden defeated the Blight in record time.
-The Warden put an end to the Fereldan Civil War.
-The Warden put an end to the succession crisis in Orzammar.
-The Warden saved the land of Amaranthine from intelligent darkspawn.
-Hawke became an influential noble in Kirkwall.
-Hawke stopped the Arishok's attack on Kirkwall.
-Hawke was pivotal in the Mage-Templar crisis in Kirkwall.
That's what people in Thedas will remember about our heroes. But none of them represent a deep, permanent change in the global status quo. None. The same way, I can see the Inquisitor being remembered for refounding the Inquisition, putting an end to the Mage-Templar War, putting an end to the Orlesian Civil War and solving the Breach crisis.
So far, no one has promised that we will change any other things than our own Inquisition.
It is quite possible that the Inquisition will be replacing the Chantry entirely. I mean just think about it. Chantry leadership is destroyed, all of it's remaining resources and authority is given over to you and the world is now looking for you to restore order and protect them from the chaos were the Chantry has failed.
And the First Inquisition predates the Chantry. It was a loose association of Andrastian-hardliners yes, but they didn't answer to any Divine or was necessarily completely made of Andrastians. In the beginning of the Divine age the newly founded Chantry made cause with the Inquisition and together they signed the Nevarran Accord as a means to try and find a balance.
But now that the Chantry has fallen to pieces and Inquisition has been reinstated, perhaps one of the choices you can make later in the game is deciding whether or not to return authority back to the Chantry or have the Inquisition remain in power.
Now, see this is what happens when we fixate on a particular issue.
The chantry is a religion, it is Chantries spread throughout thedas, it is where people(largely humans I know) go for comfort, leadership, etc. The head shead may have largely gone poof, but the rank and file that makes the chantry what it is and more importantly truly gives it its power remains. Will they take a step back? Sure. Will they recover? Yes. Will some of our more deranged(I say that in the most affectionate way I promise) members get to burn every chantry to the ground? No.
You may be right in regards to the Inquisition replacing the templars as policing the mages. They may even do so completely independent of the Chantry(I don't know on this, the Chantry is a known and kings and rulers like sticking with what they are comfortable with and the inquisition isn't anything more then an army following one mans orders currently), but on an individual everyday level, the circles are such a small part of what the chantry does it really won't matter.
Now, see this is what happens when we fixate on a particular issue.
The chantry is a religion, it is Chantries spread throughout thedas, it is where people(largely humans I know) go for comfort, leadership, etc. The head shead may have largely gone poof, but the rank and file that makes the chantry what it is and more importantly truly gives it its power remains. Will they take a step back? Sure. Will they recover? Yes. Will some of our more deranged(I say that in the most affectionate way I promise) members get to burn every chantry to the ground? No.
You may be right in regards to the Inquisition replacing the templars as policing the mages. They may even do so completely independent of the Chantry(I don't know on this, the Chantry is a known and kings and rulers like sticking with what they are comfortable with and the inquisition isn't anything more then an army following one mans orders currently), but on an individual everyday level, the circles are such a small part of what the chantry does it really won't matter.
One thing to bear in mind is the fact that the Chantry oversees the Andrastian religion, but it is not the religion is itself. The Ash Warriors, Black Chantry and even Haven have their own versions of the Chant of Light. If the Chantry were to fall or even be replaced the religion of the Maker would continue on regardless.
One thing to bear in mind is the fact that the Chantry oversees the Andrastian religion, but it is not the religion is itself. The Ash Warriors, Black Chantry and even Haven have their own versions of the Chant of Light. If the Chantry were to fall or even be replaced the religion of the Maker would continue on regardless.
In theory yes. But the Chantry is already in place in the majority of Andrastian Faith countries. Even if the headshead dies, you have all those reverend mothers, and brothers, and sisters in all those chantries throughout thedas and all those congregations that come and worship at them regularly.
I mean the town in DAO after Ostagar isn't very big but it had a lot of brothers/sisters in it and a revered mother. They would remian and the Chantry would rebuild.
One thing to bear in mind is the fact that the Chantry oversees the Andrastian religion, but it is not the religion is itself. The Ash Warriors, Black Chantry and even Haven have their own versions of the Chant of Light. If the Chantry were to fall or even be replaced the religion of the Maker would continue on regardless.
The Chantry of southern Thedas has distinct philosophical differences from those examples, however. Just because the organization falls, those beliefs won't go away. And since those beliefs don't go away, an equivalent organization to the White Chantry would eventually rise again.
Probably pretty quickly considering how wide spread the Chantry is, crud you could see a new Divine come from one of the grand cleric's within a year after Justinia and i wouldn't bat an eye.
In theory yes. But the Chantry is already in place in the majority of Andrastian Faith countries. Even if the headshead dies, you have all those reverend mothers, and brothers, and sisters in all those chantries throughout thedas and all those congregations that come and worship at them regularly.
I mean the town in DAO after Ostagar isn't very big but it had a lot of brothers/sisters in it and a revered mother. They would remian and the Chantry would rebuild.
That's entirely possible yes, but if it were to be rebuilt from a coalition of various Chantries from around Thedas I doubt it would have the same kind of power or international influence that the Inquisition will have after they took the Chantry's mantle. They would have to start over from scratch, determine their new leadership and try to reestablish ties on the political floor and at that point the Inquisition will probably have all those venues covered.
All the Chantries around the world and the mothers and officials that run them answer to the holy office of the Grand Cathedral, and the leadership there is now practically gone. At this point all the Chantries around the world are probably scrambling for some kind of stability and protection that they no longer have.
Here's a scenario that may happen. All Chantries have a certain amount of wealth from tithes, treasures or sacred relics and they rely on the governing body of the Chantry and its Templars to give them protection. Now the Chantry's leadership is gone and the Templars are separate from it, all the chantries around Thedas are unprotected. With all that wealth each chantry has only priests to look after it, that makes them easy targets for bandits, thieves, what have you and they're going to look to someone to protect them. That someone is probably going to end up being the Inquisition or the government that they're in. The Inquisition will give them that protection in exchange for their loyalty.
This is just a scenario and I'm only guessing. This might not happen at all, I just think it might be more than likely.
That's entirely possible yes, but if it were to be rebuilt from a coalition of various Chantries from around Thedas I doubt it would have the same kind of power or international influence that the Inquisition will have after they took the Chantry's mantle. They would have to start over from scratch, determine their new leadership and try to reestablish ties on the political floor and at that point the Inquisition will probably have all those venues covered.
All the Chantries around the world and the mothers and officials that run them answer to the holy office of the Grand Cathedral, and the leadership there is now practically gone. At this point all the Chantries around the world are probably scrambling for some kind of stability and protection that they no longer have.
Here's a scenario that may happen. All Chantries have a certain amount of wealth from tithes, treasures or sacred relics and they rely on the governing body of the Chantry and its Templars to give them protection. Now the Chantry's leadership is gone and the Templars are separate from it, all the chantries around Thedas are unprotected. With all that wealth each chantry has only priests to look after it, that makes them easy targets for bandits, thieves, what have you and they're going to look to someone to protect them. That someone is probably going to end up being the Inquisition or the government that they're in. The Inquisition will give them that protection in exchange for their loyalty.
This is just a scenario and I'm only guessing. This might not happen at all, I just think it might be more than likely.
But not all the leadership was wiped out. Cassandra is pissed off and starts the inquisition in part because rather then dealing with the Breach and finding who was responsible the surviving leadership heads to Val Royueax to elect a new Divine.
The Grand Cathedral is still seen as the center of the Chantry for the faithful. That isn't going to change. They will promote people up and rebuild.
You have to remember, the Inquisition doesn't give the people a religion to believe in, it is an army with a warlord at its head in simplistic terms. You will be able to do great things and such, but you won't fill that void.
But not all the leadership was wiped out. Cassandra is pissed off and starts the inquisition in part because rather then dealing with the Breach and finding who was responsible the surviving leadership heads to Val Royueax to elect a new Divine.
The Grand Cathedral is still seen as the center of the Chantry for the faithful. That isn't going to change. They will promote people up and rebuild.
You have to remember, the Inquisition doesn't give the people a religion to believe in, it is an army with a warlord at its head in simplistic terms. You will be able to do great things and such, but you won't fill that void.
Okay, you make a very good point. But I highly doubt that the Chantry will have the power it once had because its power was already greatly reduced even before the Inquisition was reestablished in the sense that they no longer have their military arm or even their political influence as seen in the Masked Empire when the Divine was looking to make an alliance with the Empress of Orlais.
I have no doubt that those from the Grand Cathedral will still lead the spiritual aspect of their religion, I just heavily doubt they will wield the same kind of militaristic or political sway they once did
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