635 réponses à ce sujet

[X Equestris]

Like Rome didn't also spend hundreds of years raping, murdering and pillaging?  Destroying entire nations because they wanted to remain themselves, and not become Roman?  Enthroning Emperors to whom the cult of personality was the breath of life?  They inflicted the very things you hold up as a consequence of their destruction on the population of most of the known world, and you think this makes them better than the alternative?  My own people had rules that were far more fair and equitable, including the legal equality of men and women, but the Romans didn't like that, so they sent the legions in to make sure women were relegated to their proper place, among other things.  They heard rumours of a nation with vast supplies of gold, so they killed every man, woman and child to get a hold of it.  Those nations that fell into 'ignorance' at the fall of Rome would have been fine, had Rome left them alone in the first place - 'free of Roman influence' does not equate to 'ignorance'.  Unless you're Roman, of course!  Rome?  I spit on it!
 
As for the Chantry?  Kill.  It.  With.  Fire.  The small goods they might do don't make up for the larger injustices they perpetrate.  So either destroy it totally, or reduce it to the point where it cannot influence more than the followers making up individual parishes.

And yet the world would be unrecognizable without them, and ultimately worse off. Just as Thedas would likely be worse off without the Chantry.

[Lilaeth]

'Worse off'?  In what way?  That's just you speculating.  I think the world would be a much better place without the Romans, personally, but again, that's just speculation.  As for the Chantry, what good have they really done?  They assist in the subjugation of mages, for a start.

[raging_monkey]

'Worse off'?  In what way?  That's just you speculating.  I think the world would be a much better place without the Romans, personally, but again, that's just speculation.  As for the Chantry, what good have they really done?  They assist in the subjugation of mages, for a start.

dont forget pushing for culture uniformity. But it for the greater good like qunari stuff*sarcasm*

[X Equestris]

'Worse off'?  In what way?  That's just you speculating.  I think the world would be a much better place without the Romans, personally, but again, that's just speculation.  As for the Chantry, what good have they really done?  They assist in the subjugation of mages, for a start.

Keeping the Qunari from conquering the world is enough for me.

As for the Romans, their empire allowed the flow of ideas across the region. Technological and engineering innovations that we still use today. Parts of Europe still use Roman aqueducts. Rome's republican phase is one of the bases of government for many western countries. We still use a modified version of their alphabet.

Besides, don't pretend the Romans are the only people who conquered and culturally assimilated populations. Alexander's successor states are a good example. It's a part of human nature to expand and spread their ideas.

[LobselVith8]

'Worse off'?  In what way?  That's just you speculating.  I think the world would be a much better place without the Romans, personally, but again, that's just speculation.  As for the Chantry, what good have they really done?  They assist in the subjugation of mages, for a start.

 

Well, they controlled the Order of Templars and the Circle of Magi for close to a millennia (which is even pointed out by the mage protagonist, who notes the Circle will do whatever the Chantry says), so 'assist' is putting it mildly.

[Icy Magebane]

Well, they controlled the Order of Templars and the Circle of Magi for close to a millennia (which is even pointed out by the mage protagonist, who notes the Circle will do whatever the Chantry says), so 'assist' is putting it mildly.

The mage protagonist of what?  If you are talking about the Warden, s/he asks Alistair, "Won't the circle do what the Chantry says?"  To which Alistair replies, "Technically the Circle of Magi is independent," yadda, yadda, yadda....  If that was simply your interpretation or what you would have preferred the Warden say, it might have been best to present it as such, rather than as a fact.

[raging_monkey]

Well, they controlled the Order of Templars and the Circle of Magi for close to a millennia (which is even pointed out by the mage protagonist, who notes the Circle will do whatever the Chantry says), so 'assist' is putting it mildly.

in all fairness they just say magic is bad just bankroll the templars tgats generally their M.O

[Mabari-Master]

The Chantry has too much say in how a country should run itself and yet does nothing when that country is need. For example the Chantry recognized Ferelden as an official kingdom if King Calenhad allowed th Chantry to have an official foothold in Ferelden. But when both Ferelden and Nevarra were being invaded by the Orlesian Empire the Chantry did nothing, in fact they blessed the conquest of Ferelden because Mad Emperor Reville was one of the twin princes for which the Blessed Age was named. So i.e. every terrible act done to Ferelden and its citizens was done with the Chantrys blessing.

 

And after the Qunari invaded Kirkwall a second time it was the Chantry who appointed Meredith to rule over Kirkwall, when the laws of that city state that if the Viscount dies without an heir or the line is wiped out the new Viscount is appointed by a council of the city's nobles. But because of the Chantry Meredith was put in charge and she put the entire city under martial law for three years and stripped the rights of the nobles and the citizens.

 

The Chantry asks for much when they want something but give very little in return. Mages are given protection and education, which can easily turn into oppression. If a mage should have a child that child automatically belongs to the Chantry as if it were property. And while the Chantry is quick to punish and lay down the law to maleficar and then punish the rest of the mages for good measure, they are slow to punish and even turn a blind eye to the crimes of templars. It is this kind of unilateral exertiion of authority that makes people want to rebel.

 

To quote Aldenon "A civilization cannot be civil if it condones the slavery of another. And that's what the Circe is! But by accident of birth, those mages would be free to love, live, and die as they choose. The Circles will break-- if it be one year, a decade, a century or beyond. Tyrants will fall, and the downtrodden always strive for freedom!"

[raging_monkey]

The Chantry has too much say in how a country should be run itself and yet does nothing when that country is need. For example the Chantry recognized Ferelden as an official kingdom if King Calenhad allowed th Chantry to have an official foothold in Ferelden. But when both Ferelden and Nevarra were being invaded by the Orlesian Empire the Chantry did nothing, in fact they blessed the conquest of Ferelden because Mad Emperor Reville was one of the twin princes for which the Divine Age was named. So i.e. every terrible act done to Ferelden and its citizens was done with the Chantrys blessing. And after the Qunari invaded Kirkwall a second time it was the Chantry who appointed Meredith to rule over Kirkwall, when the laws of that city state that if the Viscount dies without an heir or the line is wiped out the new Viscount is appointed be a council of the city's nobles. But because of the Chantry Meredith was put in charge and she put the entire city under martial law for three years and stripped the rights of the nobles and the citizens. The Chantry asks for much when they want something but give very little in return. Mages are given protection and education, which can easily turn into oppression. If a mage should have a child that child automatically belongs to the Chantry as if it were property. And while the Chantry is quick to punish and lay down the law to maleficar and then punish the rest of the mages for good measure, they are slow to punish and even turn a blind eye to the crimes of templars. It is this kind of unilateral exertiion of authority that makes people want to rebel. To quote Aldenon "A civilization cannot be civil if it condones the slavery of another. And that's what the Circe is! But by accident of birth, those mages would be free to love, live, and die as they choose. The Circles will break-- if it be one year, a decade, a century or beyond. Tyrants will fall, and the downtrodden always strive for freedom!"

hold up my friend chantry didnt let merideth rule they just stayed neutral and how would it look if the chantry did step in? Just to some but like it or not merideth kept the power vaccum in check. I dislike their practices on magi and uniformity but sometimes they are right

[Mabari-Master]

hold up my friend chantry didnt let merideth rule they just stayed neutral and how would it look if the chantry did step in? Just to some but like it or not merideth kept the power vaccum in check. I dislike their practices on magi and uniformity but sometimes they are right

Alright let me rephrase, if that helps. Meredith was made the steward of Kirkwall at the request of the Chantry, I'm sure she was very happy to oblige.

 

My point is the Chantry had no right to even make the suggestion. Kirkwall leadership is a Kirkwall affair and the Chantry had no business in interfering.

[X Equestris]

The Chantry has too much say in how a country should be run itself and yet does nothing when that country is need. For example the Chantry recognized Ferelden as an official kingdom if King Calenhad allowed th Chantry to have an official foothold in Ferelden. But when both Ferelden and Nevarra were being invaded by the Orlesian Empire the Chantry did nothing, in fact they blessed the conquest of Ferelden because Mad Emperor Reville was one of the twin princes for which the Divine Age was named. So i.e. every terrible act done to Ferelden and its citizens was done with the Chantrys blessing.
 
And after the Qunari invaded Kirkwall a second time it was the Chantry who appointed Meredith to rule over Kirkwall, when the laws of that city state that if the Viscount dies without an heir or the line is wiped out the new Viscount is appointed be a council of the city's nobles. But because of the Chantry Meredith was put in charge and she put the entire city under martial law for three years and stripped the rights of the nobles and the citizens.
 
The Chantry asks for much when they want something but give very little in return. Mages are given protection and education, which can easily turn into oppression. If a mage should have a child that child automatically belongs to the Chantry as if it were property. And while the Chantry is quick to punish and lay down the law to maleficar and then punish the rest of the mages for good measure, they are slow to punish and even turn a blind eye to the crimes of templars. It is this kind of unilateral exertiion of authority that makes people want to rebel.
 
To quote Aldenon "A civilization cannot be civil if it condones the slavery of another. And that's what the Circe is! But by accident of birth, those mages would be free to love, live, and die as they choose. The Circles will break-- if it be one year, a decade, a century or beyond. Tyrants will fall, and the downtrodden always strive for freedom!"

I agree with that. I think the Chantry has plenty of flaws, but that Thedas would end up being a worse place if it collapsed. The biggest flaw is its close relationship with Orlais. Personally, I think the Chantry would benefit from something like the Reformation, that would show it some of the more serious flaws it possesses, and prompt it to try to correct them.

[raging_monkey]

Alright let me rephrase, if that helps. Meredith was made the steward of Kirkwall at the request of the Chantry, I'm sure she was very happy to oblige. My point is the Chantry had no right to even make the suggestion. Kirkwall leadership is a Kirkwall affair and the Chantry had no business in interfering.

much better. Remember the last time somebody tried to defy kirkwall chantry law perenhold died so most nobles dont even try to fight status qou

[Mabari-Master]

I agree with that. I think the Chantry has plenty of flaws, but that Thedas would end up being a worse place if it collapsed. The biggest flaw is its close relationship with Orlais. Personally, I think the Chantry would benefit from something like the Reformation, that would show it some of the more serious flaws it possesses, and prompt it to try to correct them.

I can very much agree with this. A reformed Chantry would be better than the one it has been. I believe it should be a completely neutral organization with no political power except acting as arbiter for national relations and political disputes. But I think that the handling of mages should be left up to each individual government because already in some countries like Rivain and Nevarra mages are treated differently than how the Chantry demands.

[raging_monkey]

I can very much agree with this. A reformed Chantry would be better than the one it has been. I believe it should be a completely neutral organization with no political power except acting as arbiter for national relations and political disputes. But I think that the handling of mages should be left up to each individual government because already in some countries like Rivain and Nevarra mages are treated differently than how the Chantry demands.

that may give nations a excuse to stockpile magi as weapons

[Mabari-Master]

that may give nations a excuse to stockpile magi as weapons

That's possible, the Imperium  and the Qunari do it, but so does the Chantry, in fact they're the ones who weaponize mages the most. They leash them with their phylacteries, train them and then use them as weapons of war. Even Cullen says that the mages are weapons.

 

I think Circles should exist to give mages protection and education, but they should be run by the kingdom instead of the Chantry. Technically the Circle is an independent organization that is only overseen by the Chantry, but that's been proven to be total bull. If I was a king I'd want to know exactly how all my citizens were being treated instead of letting the Chantry run their affairs behind my back and if I was a mage citizen I'd rather be treated by the laws of my country than the biased laws of the Chantry

[raging_monkey]

That's possible, the Imperium  and the Qunari do it, but so does the Chantry, in fact they're the ones who weaponize mages the most. They leash them with their phylacteries, train them and then use them as weapons of war. Even Cullen says that the mages are weapons. I think Circles should exist to give mages protection and education, but they should be run by the kingdom instead of the Chantry. Technically the Circle is an independent organization that is only overseen by the Chantry, but that's been proven to be total bull. If I was a king I'd want to know exactly how all my citizens were being treated instead of letting the Chantry run their affairs behind my back and if I was a mage citizen I'd rather be treated by the laws of my country than the biased laws of the Chantry

there we go to idealism in a medievil influenced setting. Some argue that its cost prohibitive to constantly check on minorities and their welfare when a religious group will do it for free(loosely) people in power dont care for minority groups altrusitcally. Best case is to either reform which may fail and you'll die or B slink off out of public eye and hoped not to be killed

[Sir DeLoria]

'I think the world would be a much better place without the Romans

Yeah, because screw all the good things they invented and caused, let's just focus on the things modern society deems wrong about them. Who needs literature, law, hygiene, science, craftsmanship, architecture, trade, finances, engineering and art anyway?

Slavery, cultural assimilation and warmongering were practiced by literally every nation on Earth at the time. Throw in a few things like human sacrifices, infanticide and headhunting which their Northern neighbors practiced and Rome comes off as comparatively mild.

Not to mention that the Romans were far more tolerant of foreign religions and largely allowed conquered nations to retain their beliefs and culture.

Like it or not, the world would be set back a few hundred years if it weren't for the Romans.

[X Equestris]

That's possible, the Imperium  and the Qunari do it, but so does the Chantry, in fact they're the ones who weaponize mages the most. They leash them with their phylacteries, train them and then use them as weapons of war. Even Cullen says that the mages are weapons.
 
I think Circles should exist to give mages protection and education, but they should be run by the kingdom instead of the Chantry. Technically the Circle is an independent organization that is only overseen by the Chantry, but that's been proven to be total bull. If I was a king I'd want to know exactly how all my citizens were being treated instead of letting the Chantry run their affairs behind my back and if I was a mage citizen I'd rather be treated by the laws of my country than the biased laws of the Chantry

Personally, I would be fine with an independent organization like the Inquisition taking over running the Circles and fulfilling the policing role of the Templars. Make the Circle a place for education until the mages are strong enough to go through the Harrowing, and if they pass, give them the option of leaving the Circle permanently. Keep the phylacteries so you can track them if they go criminal.

[Mabari-Master]

Yeah, because screw all the good things they invented and caused, let's just focus on the things modern society deems wrong about them. Who needs literature, law, hygiene, science, craftsmanship, architecture, trade, finances, engineering and art anyway?

Slavery, cultural assimilation and warmongering were practiced by literally every nation on Earth at the time. Throw in a few things like human sacrifices, infanticide and headhunting which their Northern neighbors practiced and Rome comes off as comparatively mild.

Not to mention that the Romans were far more tolerant of foreign religions and largely allowed conquered nations to retain their beliefs and culture.

Like it or not, the world would be set back a few hundred years if it weren't for the Romans.

I hope none of you take this the wrong way, and please don't think I'm calling any of you stupid, but you can't keep comparing the Chantry to the Roman Empire. Rome was a nation and an empire, not a religious foundation, it never was. When Rome ceased to be the heart of an empire it became the seat of the Catholic church, and the Vatican, while it has it's own sovereignty, is not an empire and has no army.

 

Even the so called Holy Roman Empire wasn't ran by Rome, heck, Rome wasn't even apart of it! It was a collection of Frankish kingdoms brought together by Charlemagne and was anointed an empire by the Pope several generations after Charlemagne's death.

 

If anything in Thedas is like Rome it's the Tevinter Imperium.

 

And FYI I don't like using historical references for a fictional world, that's just outrageous. 

[Sir DeLoria]

I hope none of you take this the wrong way, and please don't think I'm calling any of you stupid, but you can't keep comparing the Chantry to the Roman Empire. Rome was a nation and an empire, not a religious foundation, it never was. When Rome ceased to be the heart of an empire it became the seat of the Catholic church, and the Vatican, while it has it's own sovereignty, is not an empire and has no army.
 
Even the so called Holy Roman Empire wasn't ran by Rome, heck, Rome wasn't even apart of it! It was a collection of Frankish kingdoms brought together by Charlemagne and was anointed an empire by the Pope several generations after Charlemagne's death.
 
If anything in Thedas is like Rome it's the Tevinter Imperium.
 
And FYI I don't like using historical references for a fictional world, that's just outrageous.

My post was just an answer to everyone thinking the Roman Empire as a whole was bad, it has nothing to do with the main discussion.

[X Equestris]

I hope none of you take this the wrong way, and please don't think I'm calling any of you stupid, but you can't keep comparing the Chantry to the Roman Empire. Rome was a nation and an empire, not a religious foundation, it never was. When Rome ceased to be the heart of an empire it became the seat of the Catholic church, and the Vatican, while it has it's own sovereignty, is not an empire and has no army.
 
Even the so called Holy Roman Empire wasn't ran by Rome, heck, Rome wasn't even apart of it! It was a collection of Frankish kingdoms brought together by Charlemagne and was anointed an empire by the Pope several generations after Charlemagne's death.
 
If anything in Thedas is like Rome it's the Tevinter Imperium.
 
And FYI I don't like using historical references for a fictional world, that's just outrageous.

Ding ding ding. Precisely. Tevinter is Rome, and it's modern incarnation is basically Eastern Rome/the Byzantine Empire. If you want to compare it to something, the Chantry fills the same role as the Catholic Church. However, if you look at the theology, they are very different organizations. I don't mind the historical analogies, since they are stated inspirations, but they aren't perfect. After all, Rome wasn't a hub of blood magic.

[Mabari-Master]

My post was just an answer to everyone thinking the Roman Empire as a whole was bad, it has nothing to do with the main discussion.

That's cool. I hope I didn't offend you or anyone else with my post and response.

 

And FYI I would have loved to have been a citizen of the Roman Empire, but if I was not born into it I would have been one of the barbarians that waged war on it.

[TheMakergavemeswag]

Keeping the Qunari from conquering the world is enough for me.

As for the Romans, their empire allowed the flow of ideas across the region. Technological and engineering innovations that we still use today. Parts of Europe still use Roman aqueducts. Rome's republican phase is one of the bases of government for many western countries. We still use a modified version of their alphabet.

Besides, don't pretend the Romans are the only people who conquered and culturally assimilated populations. Alexander's successor states are a good example. It's a part of human nature to expand and spread their ideas.

 

and attacking the elves for no reason while also forcing there believes on others and abusing the rite of tranquility the chantry deserves everything they are getting and it won't be long before i join the mages destroy the templars and the chantry.

[Giant ambush beetle]

I'm not perfectly happy with the Chantry, like any big institution it has a dark side but in my opinion it does more right than wrong and this alone is reason enough for me to support it. Even if slightly reluctantly.
It also brings people together, its a beacon of hope and a morale boost for many, invaluable features in hard times.

While being highly skeptical about this religion my inquisitor will support it because it definitely benefits the people of Thedeas.

[raging_monkey]

and attacking the elves for no reason while also forcing there believes on others and abusing the rite of tranquility the chantry deserves everything they are getting and it won't be long before i join the mages destroy the templars and the chantry.

tranquility abuses only happened with one mad man who he and cohorts are now deceased