635 réponses à ce sujet

[raging_monkey]

I suggest we let the Chantry fall. Power vacuums are actually the best thing for stability! @Lilaeth: Actually - given the parents raising children today - taking away a mage's child before they can say: "Not MY little Jowan!  *BLAST FREEZE KABOOM!*" really sounds like the ONLY option. Most parents would be the absolute worst teachers to prepare a child to resist demons.

lol you i like

[Lilaeth]

what if a child who has magic and surfaces early stills a book and causes damage or becomes possessed if i was a parent id take every pre-caution. But i see where you stand

 

In that case there would have to be rules that magical books and objects are not allowed in the family quarters, just the work rooms.  Failure to comply would mean punishment.  Maybe even loss of their children.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

According to the Chantry historical version which claims that the elves started the war, which is contradicted by the Dalish historical version that reads the Chantry started the war.

You mean the same Dalish historical version that blows off them invading Orlais entirely?

[TTTX]

Story reasons.

Ahh yes the old the plot demands it.

[Steelcan]

the war was started when Red Crossing was sacked, the build up to the war is more ambiguous, but the attack on Red Crossing is not

[LobselVith8]

You mean the same Dalish historical version that blows off them invading Orlais entirely?

 

It doesn't focus on the attack on Red Crossing (which may or may not have been in retaliation to human incursion into the Dales), while the Chantry version omits any mention of missionaries or an armed incursion into elven sovereign territory. Let's not pretend as though we know which historical account is the right one.

[raging_monkey]

In that case there would have to be rules that magical books and objects are not allowed in the family quarters, just the work rooms.  Failure to comply would mean punishment.  Maybe even loss of their children.

which goes back to space andd money Lil. And call me monkey the raging part is a family name lol

[Neon Rising Winter]

Why wouldn't it be a reliable minimum standard?

 

Not to mention the flaw due to lack of oversight is a pretty big issue when Conner crap happens as a result.

They give the appearance of being internally governed, who is maintaining the standard?

 

And I'm not sure quoting a failure of the Circle system strengthens your argument.

[Ryzaki]

They give the appearance of being internally governed, who is maintaining the standard?

 

And I'm not sure quoting a failure of the Circle system strengthens your argument.

 

The mages I'd assume.

 

How is it a failure? Even Tevinter has circles showing that yes there's a reason it's used. The main issue was Isolde being worried about her social status (considering Finn's parents can visit him just fine as does the arl in the epilogue) and endangered everyone around her instead of having Conner trained in the circle as he should've been.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

It doesn't focus on the attack on Red Crossing (which may or may not have been in retaliation to human incursion into the Dales), while the Chantry version omits any mention of missionaries or an armed incursion into elven sovereign territory. Let's not pretend as though we know which historical account is the right one.

I'm not talking about Red Crossing specifically. I am talking about their entire charge through Orlais, up to the point the sacked the capital. That's a pretty big detail to leave out and instead go " The Chantry first sent missionaries into the Dales, and then, when those were thrown out, templars". 

And the Chantry version flat out admits they invaded the Dales in a counterattack via the Exalted March. As for not mentioning missionaries, why is there a need to put "We sent missionaries there just like we do everywhere else."?

[Lilaeth]

which goes back to space andd money Lil. And call me monkey the raging part is a family name lol

 

Well Monkey, I think i suggested further up the thread that mages could live in settlements, not towers, for a start.  I suspect that most, if not all, of the circles will need rebuilding at some point, which is when the changes could be made.  that means it's not an all-out programme of rebuilding them all at once, so the cost can be staggered.  If the powers that be want to reduce the level of resentment that the mages currently feel, they'll just have to find the money.  The Chantry has plenty, and I bet the Crown and the Templars could donate some gold as well!

 

And the meaning of my RL surname is 'counsellor'.  I'm trying to live up to it tonight!  

[Neon Rising Winter]

The mages I'd assume.

 

How is it a failure? Even Tevinter has circles showing that yes there's a reason it's used.

That's interesting, so if the mages recommended a different approach their expert advice should be followed as they're taking the lead on what's best?

 

Demonic possession, lots of deaths, horrible accents emerging from associated NPCs. Sounds like a failure to me.

[Master Warder Z_]

Ahh yes the old the plot demands it.

 

Pretty much, i mean if Seekers came in and killed Orsino before act 2 because they dug up his connections to a serial killing blood mage...who would have been Harvestino?

[Ryzaki]

That's interesting, so if the mages recommended a different approach their expert advice should be followed as they're taking the lead on what's best?

 

Demonic possession, lots of deaths, horrible accents emerging from associated NPCs. Sounds like a failure to me.

 

Um no. I'm merely pointing out that even in the absence of templar overhead the mages default to a circle like system.

 

that happens everywhere. If you're going to use that as a failure of the system no system will ever be a success to you. There's always gonna be failure cases. The most you can hope for is a minimization.

[raging_monkey]

Well Monkey, I think i suggested further up the thread that mages could live in settlements, not towers, for a start.  I suspect that most, if not all, of the circles will need rebuilding at some point, which is when the changes could be made.  that means it's not an all-out programme of rebuilding them all at once, so the cost can be staggered.  If the powers that be want to reduce the level of resentment that the mages currently feel, they'll just have to find the money.  The Chantry has plenty, and I bet the Crown and the Templars could donate some gold as well! And the meaning of my RL surname is 'counsellor'.  I'm trying to live up to it tonight!  

well counsellor you have in my book*tips fedora*. But even if we do get public funding which will still create a social gap. What then

[TTTX]

Pretty much, i mean if Seekers came in and killed Orsino before act 2 because they dug up his connections to a serial killing blood mage...who would have been Harvestino?

or Meredith's red Lyrium then who would turn Kirkwall into a dictatorship and become a super nutcase?

[LobselVith8]

I'm not talking about Red Crossing specifically. I am talking about their entire charge through Orlais, up to the point the sacked the capital. That's a pretty big detail to leave out and instead go " The Chantry first sent missionaries into the Dales, and then, when those were thrown out, templars". 

And the Chantry version flat out admits they invaded the Dales in a counterattack via the Exalted March. As for not mentioning missionaries, why is there a need to put "We sent missionaries there just like we do everywhere else."?

 

In other words, both versions don't focus on certain facts, but you're choosing to intentionally ignore that to focus on one single historical account.

 

The Dalish claim the Chantry initially invaded the Dales because the elves wouldn't convert (which is what their historical account focuses on), and this is even a claim that the elven Warden can verbally condemn the Chantry for. There are at least two historical versions about the inception of the war between the humans and the elves; one written by the Chantry, and one written by the Dalish. Let's not ignore the simple fact that players aren't privy to the knowledge about which historical account is more accurate than the other.

[Sir DeLoria]

The Greeks wore socks before the Romans.

The Greeks wrapped fur around their feet, the Romans invented modern woven socks.

They also had surgeons - Hippocrates (of the Hippocratic oath) was Greek..

Battlefield and military surgery was my point, which was invented by the Romans.

The Nazca aqueducts are far older than Rome, and still in use. There are even earlier ones in India.

Wow India, bet India started building aqueducts everywhere and spreading their invention. Europe didn't even have contact with India at the time.

Satirical papyrii have been found in Egypt, again, predating the classical authors who made their name from it.

Which weren't discovered until rather recently. Quintilian, who coined the phrase and wrote the first "real" satire, was in no way associated or influenced by these writings.

The Corpus Juris Civilis had predecessors in other civilizations - that's just the name that the Romans gave to theirs.

With predecessors I think you mean any text loosely defining laws. Which are irrelevant because no other culture made anything rivaling the Corpus Iuris Civilis in iffluence or magnitude.

The earliest concrete found so far predates Rome, to about 7000BC.

Concrete can occur naturally, so it's not surprising this mixture was used every now and then. No one used it as extensively as the Romans though.

Roman historians claimed that the Celts were backward and had no culture or means of collecting scientific data. This was accepted as truth for centuries.

Tacitus is more propaganda than history. Even so, the Romans had a point, they were far more advanced in almost every regard than the Celts, Picts and Germans.

Then a bronze calendar was found in France. It took years to restore it and to understand it, but when they did they found it to be the most accurate calender of that time and even if used today, it is only 1/2 a day out of sequence. It was much more advanced than the Roman system at the time, ie, the Julian calendar.

Too bad it was lost making it utterly irrelevant in the grand scheme of history.

The first paved streets were build in Ur, in about 4000BC.

Ur didn't even exist anymore when Rome was founded. That's another point though, there were many paved roads built before yes, but nobody at the time managed to build a road system rivaling that of the Romans. The Roman road system covered 78000 kilometres, was used almost entirely through the Middle Ages and partially still exists.

Need I go on?

No please spare me, most of those examples were totally out of context and more than half of my previous points weren't even debunked.

Traditionally Rome has been believed to be the source of just about everything in Western civilisation, but really, they were not. The information is out there. Historians and archaeologists are discovering more of it every year. it's not bullshit. All you have to do is read it. And with that, I think I have bored everyone enough with this for one evening!

Oh boy, I don't think you get it, Rome was of course the direct source of all of these things. Wether or not someone had previously invented something similar or not is completely irrelevant because western society is largely direct offspiring of late Roman society and most of the previously mentioned invetions came from Rome. This is of course thanks largely to Christianity, which was spread mostly through the late Roman Empire.

[Neon Rising Winter]

Um no. I'm merely pointing out that even in the absence of templar overhead the mages default to a circle like system.

 

that happens everywhere. If you're going to use that as a failure of the system no system will ever be a success to you. There's always gonna be failure cases. The most you can hope for is a minimization.

Mages in a location following the same religion, just having diverged from an early schism. I'd need examples from cultures less influenced by early Chantry thought to be convinced.

 

And don't go acting like I'm the one who brought it up as an example!

[TTTX]

In other words, both versions don't focus on certain facts, but you're choosing to intentionally ignore that to focus on one single historical account.

 

The Dalish claim the Chantry initially invaded the Dales because the elves wouldn't convert (which is what their historical account focuses on), and this is even a claim that the elven Warden can verbally condemn the Chantry for. There are at least two historical versions about the inception of the war between the humans and the elves; one written by the Chantry, and one written by the Dalish. Let's not ignore the simple fact that players aren't privy to the knowledge about which historical account is more accurate than the other.

History is written by the victors as they say.

[Ryzaki]

Mages in a location following the same religion, just having diverged from an early schism. I'd need examples from cultures less influenced by early Chantry thought to be convinced.

 

And don't go acting like I'm the one who brought it up as an example!

 

Sadly they're the only ones I bothered looking up since they are the largest mage in power culture.

 

But if you want to see the dalish...they too have clans that have to hunt their keepers because they go abomination. It's not often but it happens.

 

So what are you arguing then? You say the methods they use are subpar and offer no better examples.

[LobselVith8]

History is written by the victors as they say.

 

Yes, they do say that, but it doesn't tell us which one is true. I doubt the developers will clarify the matter, since they've refused to do so for years; it's likely the Trevelyan Inquisitor and the Lavellan Inquisitor will be informed by their people's historical account about what happened to the Dales, since it's one of the primary locations for the main character to visit.

[Shadow Fox]

Can we please not turn this into another Dalish thread?

 

One circular argument at a time people.

[Lilaeth]

well counsellor you have in my book*tips fedora*. But even if we do get public funding which will still create a social gap. What then

 

I still think it has to go hand-in-hand with re-education of non-magical people, so that they're less likely to go on the rampage with torches and pitchforks.  That would reduce everyone's stress levels. And I still believe that a happier, less stressed mage is less likely to lose control of their magic, or to want to make a deal with a demon.  But of course there will always be exceptions to the rule.  Have to work out how to deal with that.  Maybe the more volatile mages could be put into the army - they already go off to war anyway.

[Steelcan]

History is written by the victors as they say.

I tire of this saying

 

In many cases historical accounts of the losers survive