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Should We Let The Chantry Fall?


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#601
Augustei

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She did leave the Wardens.  Duncan certainly showed Alistair what to do to people who tried to back out of simply joining the organization.  :rolleyes:

Indeed, My Warden enforcing this rule is what cost Alistair his life in my Canon.

 

She only left because she was cured of the Taint. You can't be a Warden without it. 

Good news, She gets to undertake the joining again! =D


Anyway, I very vaguely remember something about Maric and Loghain contemplating kicking the Chantry out of Ferelden or something after they won the rebellion, due to the Chantry having supported Orlais and condemning the rule of the Theirins. But they decided not to since so many of the commoners were religious Andrastians etc.
Wish I could remember where I ....Well, remember this from.
Personally I think they should have and taken control of the church themselves, sure It would have been risky but  they could have easily sold the whole "Orlesian Corruption of our sacred church" thing, and hey they'd already beaten back the Orlesians who were at the time at war with Nevarra.
 



#602
raging_monkey

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Govt oversite over religion can lead to censorship
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#603
Ravensword

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You guys looking for some freedom from religion?

#604
Master Warder Z_

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You guys looking for some freedom from religion?

 

What sort of insanity is that.



#605
Xilizhra

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You guys looking for some freedom from religion?

Such a thing is valuable. Certainly no one should be forced into a religious community they don't wish to be in.


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#606
Master Warder Z_

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Such a thing is valuable. Certainly no one should be forced into a religious community they don't wish to be in.

 

And no one outside the Qunari or Dalish do that.

 

You can express disbelief in the Maker in front of a Grand Cleric and she doesn't bat an eye.


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#607
Xilizhra

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And no one outside the Qunari or Dalish do that.

 

You can express disbelief in the Maker in front of a Grand Cleric and she doesn't bat an eye.

Actually, you can't; you can just say that the Maker didn't stop the Blight. Also, your proof of the Dalish doing so is nil. And what do you think the reaction in, say, the Circle would be to an apprentice who was outspoken about not believing in the Maker?


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#608
Master Warder Z_

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Actually, you can't; you can just say that the Maker didn't stop the Blight. 

 

And given she was espousing belief that the Hero of Fereldan was an agent of the Maker, denying such is denying the existence of the maker.

 

That was my take on it.

Also, your proof of the Dalish doing so is nil.

 

They glared at pol every time he almost mentioned Andraste in place of the Creators back in the Dalish opening and he actually flinches like he is expecting to be attacked, Its obvious that if you wish to be apart of their community you have to adopt the culture and the deities that go along with it.

 

So not nil per say, but Speculation based upon an observation.

 

Seems likely to be honest.

 

 

And what do you think the reaction in, say, the Circle would be to an apprentice who was outspoken about not believing in the Maker?

 

Probably would vary on a number of factors.

 

Some of the Chantry take dismissal of the Chant, the Maker and Andraste poorly.

 

Some seem indifference, i accepted long ago that the Chantry stance was not a universal thing.



#609
Xilizhra

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And given she was espousing belief that the Hero of Fereldan was an agent of the Maker, denying such is denying the existence of the maker.

 

That was my take on it.

That... no? If you deny that it was a member of ISIS who blew up a specific building, you're not necessarily denying the existence of ISIS.

 

 

They glared at pol every time he almost mentioned Andraste in place of the Creators back in the Dalish opening and he actually flinches like he is expecting to be attacked, Its obvious that if you wish to be apart of their community you have to adopt the culture and the deities that go along with it.

 

So not nil per say, but Speculation based upon an observation.

 

Seems likely to be honest.

I recall no glares or flinching.

 

 

Probably would vary on a number of factors.

 

Some of the Chantry take dismissal of the Chant, the Maker and Andraste poorly.

 

Some seem indifference, i accepted long ago that the Chantry stance was not a universal thing.

We'd have to see; hopefully we can get rid of all those "magic is sin" people...



#610
Master Warder Z_

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That... no? If you deny that it was a member of ISIS who blew up a specific building, you're not necessarily denying the existence of ISIS.

 

It was my interpretation, i never offered it as more.

 

Beyond that if that instance doesn't appeal, you can make it plain throughout DAO you do not buy into the Maker.

 

 

I recall no glares or flinching.

 

I replayed it fairly recently using a Dalish origin, i do quite plainly recall it.

 

 

We'd have to see; hopefully we can get rid of all those "magic is sin" people...

 

I think such a belief will endure as long as magic it self does, you cannot kill a cultural notion merely by killing those that espouse it, if anything it will only be detrimental to that effect.

 

But i myself don't view it as "sinful" in and of it self, it however can lead to sin, and quite easily so.


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#611
LobselVith8

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That... no? If you deny that it was a member of ISIS who blew up a specific building, you're not necessarily denying the existence of ISIS.

 

True. The Maker isn't even supposed to directly be involved with the world anymore; that's the entire point of the Chantry's claim that the Chant needs to be sung from the four corners of the world to bring back the Maker's attention to Thedas.

 

I recall no glares or flinching.

 

When Pol is with Junar, he only seems wary because of what he's heard about the Dalish in the Alienage, which is why he asks Mahariel if the "terrible stories" are true, where the protagonist can respond in different ways, from informing Pol that he'll have a place in the clan as long as he's useful, or reassuring him he has nothing to worry about. Pol even talks about what it's like to live in a city when spoken to again, and he talks about how "all the poorest folk" live in the Alienage, who are only allowed to be servants.

 

In fact, he even uses the term 'Andraste's mercy' without flinching when he mentions how no elves from the Alienage are permitted to carry weapons.

 

Pol also notes "I never dreamed you'd be so welcoming" when speaking to Mahariel about the Dalish, and that he was surprised the clan offered him a place in their community.

 

We'd have to see; hopefully we can get rid of all those "magic is sin" people...

 

Considering how that view was espoused in Origins and Dragon Age II (Ferelden and Kirkwall), that might require the demise of a lot of people.


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#612
Master Warder Z_

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True. The Maker isn't even supposed to directly be involved with the world anymore

 

You don't need to be involved directly in the management of the world to not wish it destroyed.

 

Beyond that Elthinia espouses it Hero of Fereldan that ended the blight, not the Maker, that they were only his agent in that regard.



#613
lane

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the chantry hold too many dark secrets about past events to be the innocent order people like to look up to. as i dig into texts and history, the chantry and its great divine are faar from innocent with clean hands... thats my opinion and i hope getting a chance to reveal whats lies beneath...



#614
Mistic

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You don't need to be involved directly in the management of the world to not wish it destroyed.

 

Beyond that Elthinia espouses it Hero of Fereldan that ended the blight, not the Maker, that they were only his agent in that regard.

 

Who bets the same will be said about the Inquisitor in DA:I? And yes, with the same success at denying it as the Warden.



#615
Shadow Fox

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the chantry hold too many dark secrets about past events to be the innocent order people like to look up to. as i dig into texts and history, the chantry and its great divine are faar from innocent with clean hands... thats my opinion and i hope getting a chance to reveal whats lies beneath...

You mean like every other organization/group in Thedas?



#616
twizbuck

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Let it fall?

 

I'm gonna crush it.



#617
CapivaRasgor

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I think the better question is: should we help it rebuild if we are able?

 

Honestly - after the losing of the Circle and the Templars in Asunder and with Justinia's potential death - I think the Chantry as the major and worldwide organization we know has already fallen, or is at least in the brink of falling. There may be some chapters keeping a semblance of purpose here and there, some going on an more zealous and extremist approach others trying to care for the more unfortunate, but still.. if I'm proved to be wrong, than what is the Chantry now that the Nevaran Accord has been broken and Orlais is too preoccupied with the civil war to aid it? I think Lambert pretty much stated it already: a bunch of old women. One could argue that if the Chantry has already fallen than the Qunari would invade, "Bas will be converted" and all that jazz but have you guys noticed the big green hole on the sky? Do you honestly believe they are just a southern problem? Personally I believe that if the Qunari wanted to invade they would have already done so at much earlier stages of Thedosian history, perhaps they are dealing with internal strife no one knows about? I mean, the Arishok seemed particularly desperate to recover the Tome of Koslun.



#618
dragonflight288

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It wouldn't surprise me if a bunch of 'mini-chantries' form, and each one contends that they are the true chantry. 


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#619
lane

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You mean like every other organization/group in Thedas?

but the most cruel. Templars order is corrupted ,facts are all over thedas from day one in orgin,if people take time to notice, and the circle solution is unhuman in so many levels am not even gonna start, but the chantry ? they pull all those cruel strings. and thats really not hard to comprehend when you compare to the ones pulling the strings in our world. Its easy to rule and dictate our own rules  pretending to be blessed by powerful grace and be saints and divines.

all am saying is i hope there would be a choice at some point weither to completely support the chantry, or completely stands against it at last. 


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#620
wcholcombe

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Actually, you can't; you can just say that the Maker didn't stop the Blight. Also, your proof of the Dalish doing so is nil. And what do you think the reaction in, say, the Circle would be to an apprentice who was outspoken about not believing in the Maker?

Just for the point of clarity.  You can say the maker doesn't exist in DAO in that 1st village and while the Revered mother disagrees with you, it isn't like she throws you out or has the templars arrest you, especially considering the option to say so comes across as unecessarily rude,  I actually think the portrayal of the templars and Chantry gets overidden by the horribleness of all sides in DA2, while in DAO there were a great many-in fact the majority- who were very even handed and even minded.

 

Also, in regards to religious freedom, you can't say the Dalish practice religious freedom and then say that they kicked the missionaries out of the dales leading to the coming back with templar escorts as part of the start of the fall of the dales.

 

If, as Lob often points out, the Dalish believe that is how the conflict started, then the Dalish very much do not practice religious freedom, if they do not allow their people to have the option to listen to the words of Andrastian missionaries.

 

Also, from what we have seen, the circles/templars really couldn't care less what the religious beliefs of its mages are, just as long as they behave.

 

Not picking one side or another, just offering points of clarity in the discussion.


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#621
wcholcombe

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I think the better question is: should we help it rebuild if we are able?

 

Honestly - after the losing of the Circle and the Templars in Asunder and with Justinia's potential death - I think the Chantry as the major and worldwide organization we know has already fallen, or is at least in the brink of falling. There may be some chapters keeping a semblance of purpose here and there, some going on an more zealous and extremist approach others trying to care for the more unfortunate, but still.. if I'm proved to be wrong, than what is the Chantry now that the Nevaran Accord has been broken and Orlais is too preoccupied with the civil war to aid it? I think Lambert pretty much stated it already: a bunch of old women. One could argue that if the Chantry has already fallen than the Qunari would invade, "Bas will be converted" and all that jazz but have you guys noticed the big green hole on the sky? Do you honestly believe they are just a southern problem? Personally I believe that if the Qunari wanted to invade they would have already done so at much earlier stages of Thedosian history, perhaps they are dealing with internal strife no one knows about? I mean, the Arishok seemed particularly desperate to recover the Tome of Koslun.

Lambert is on a power trip and at the end of the book really seems to be off kilter compared to earlier in the book.

 

Also, I think the impression of the number of templars who leave that is given in Asunder is off base.

 

Templars are chosen from among the most devout correct?  So I can see a large number of them saying that they would rather stick with following their religious leader the divine, then follow along with the actions of the Lord Seeker, especially since by and large the templars despise the seekers.

 

And again, the power of the chantry doesn't lie in the templars or in the mages.  Look at the Roman Catholic church.  It hasn't had a standing army since probably the days of Pope Julius, yet I believe it is still the largest land owner in the wolrd and is quite powerful.

 

The Chantry's power lies in faith and its people.  The templar order was never some massive military force capable of fighting wars, the power of the Chantry is stirring up its faithful and motivating its followers.  If the divine truly saw Lambert and such as a threat, she would use her connections to have the great majority of Templars arrested by the countries they are in, in addition she could just brand them herretics, and let the locals deal with them.

 

For the best interest of all Justinia didn't operate in that manner.

 

But if you truly think the templars and the circles gave the Chantry its power.....  It was a strong power in thedas long before either existed.



#622
Mistic

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Also, in regards to religious freedom, you can't say the Dalish practice religious freedom and then say that they kicked the missionaries out of the dales leading to the coming back with templar escorts as part of the start of the fall of the dales.

 

If, as Lob often points out, the Dalish believe that is how the conflict started, then the Dalish very much do not practice religious freedom, if they do not allow their people to have the option to listen to the words of Andrastian missionaries.

 

To be honest, I'm afraid I have to ask: which Dalish and whose religious freedom are you talking about? If you are talking about the Dales, true, they didn't have religious freedom. If you are talking about the current Dalish, we don't really know (I think they may not like the idea very much, but don't have a way to enforce it because the dissenter in question has always the option to leave the clan).

 

Lambert is on a power trip and at the end of the book really seems to be off kilter compared to earlier in the book.

 

Also, I think the impression of the number of templars who leave that is given in Asunder is off base.

 

Templars are chosen from among the most devout correct?  So I can see a large number of them saying that they would rather stick with following their religious leader the divine, then follow along with the actions of the Lord Seeker, especially since by and large the templars despise the seekers.

 

And again, the power of the chantry doesn't lie in the templars or in the mages.  Look at the Roman Catholic church.  It hasn't had a standing army since probably the days of Pope Julius, yet I believe it is still the largest land owner in the wolrd and is quite powerful.

 

The Chantry's power lies in faith and its people.  The templar order was never some massive military force capable of fighting wars, the power of the Chantry is stirring up its faithful and motivating its followers.  If the divine truly saw Lambert and such as a threat, she would use her connections to have the great majority of Templars arrested by the countries they are in, in addition she could just brand them herretics, and let the locals deal with them.

 

For the best interest of all Justinia didn't operate in that manner.

 

But if you truly think the templars and the circles gave the Chantry its power.....  It was a strong power in thedas long before either existed.

 

Well, we do know that Seekers and Templars still loyal to the Divine are serving under Cassandra and Cullen. Still, every source so far points out that they are the minority. How much of a minority remains to be seen.

 

As for the influence of the Chantry, I agree. People always underestimate soft power. It's just that Templars and Circles have been pillars of the Chantry system for a long time. Because no, the Chantry wasn't a strong power in Thedas long before either existed. Actually, the Chantry was created in -3 Ancient and the Nevarran Accord (which created the Templars and the Circles) was signed in Divine 1:20, so it only existed for 23 years before those two institutions became a part of it.


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#623
Eveangaline

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I hope we get the chance to demilitarize it and get it out of law. Let it stand on it's own teachings rather than spreading itself on the edge of the sword of by enforcing itself into law.


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#624
Magdalena11

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1.)  Lambert is on a power trip and at the end of the book really seems to be off kilter compared to earlier in the book.

 

2.)  Also, I think the impression of the number of templars who leave that is given in Asunder is off base.

 

3.)  Templars are chosen from among the most devout correct?  So I can see a large number of them saying that they would rather stick with following their religious leader the divine, then follow along with the actions of the Lord Seeker, especially since by and large the templars despise the seekers.

 

4.)  And again, the power of the chantry doesn't lie in the templars or in the mages.  Look at the Roman Catholic church.  It hasn't had a standing army since probably the days of Pope Julius, yet I believe it is still the largest land owner in the wolrd and is quite powerful.

 

5.)  The Chantry's power lies in faith and its people.

6.)  The templar order was never some massive military force capable of fighting wars, the power of the Chantry is stirring up its faithful and motivating its followers.  

7.)  If the divine truly saw Lambert and such as a threat, she would use her connections to have the great majority of Templars arrested by the countries they are in, in addition she could just brand them herretics, and let the locals deal with them.

 

For the best interest of all Justinia didn't operate in that manner.

 

But if you truly think the templars and the circles gave the Chantry its power.....  It was a strong power in thedas long before either existed.

I'm sorry if I offend by editing your post to address your arguments by number.  It's a long post and I'm lazy.

1.  Just like with Anders showing signs of the anger and resentment that drives him mad eventually, Lambert's power trip is evident on Day 1.

2.  Most people who are common soldiers follow the paycheck, and if it clears, they're loyal.  A majority would follow the organization that provided their livelihood and reason for being.

3.  Templars were frequently oblates, given to the Chantry with or without their will.  They're also soldiers, trained to fight.  Lambert, and potentially the Divine, are out of the picture, so they'll go with their training and fight whoever's threatening them.

4.  The power of the Chantry is that it's the Chantry.  What else are folks supposed to believe.  All they know is that some whackos are fighting and as usual, their fields are the ones getting crushed and their husbands and sons are the ones getting killed.  It's hardly a recruitment poster.  There's no evidence that the Chantry actually owns land or controls its tenants.

5.  The Chantry's power lies in whatever its disciples are willing to feed it.  It's the way of life for most folk, but the Dalish, the dwarves, and the qunari differ.

6.  Even dumb old Alistair says the templars are an army.  Granted, it's a disillusioned army, potentially without a head.  With any luck, it will be ripe for the picking.

7.  The Divine has to tread carefully with Lambert.  By strict Chantry law, he's probably immune to any slings and arrows against him.  He might be a scumbag, but he's a righteous scumbag, and he needs to be taken down with more subtle tools than "Because I said so."  It doesn't work with kids and there's no reason to think it would work with Lambert supporters either.

 

As for the last bit, a little romantic, no?  People only have power because they get it, one way or another.  To find a solution, you have to work within the existing political system.  It's like you can have power or invoke change, but not both.  People who have it will want to keep it and do whatever it takes to make it so.  If it's their lives on the line or yours, it's your job to make sure it's theirs.



#625
Keroko

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Govt oversite over religion can lead to censorship

 

Given that the Chantry itself is known to censor inconvenient truths, that'd be the pot calling the kettle black,


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