635 réponses à ce sujet

[Steelcan]

the Dalish are a pestilence

[Cainhurst Crow]

Well one could argue they have every right to be. You can only push someone so far before they start to push back.

Sister Petrice here has a point. The qunari have pushed too far, and its time to start pushing back.

[Steelcan]

They can abandon a war they lost long ago and actually accept reality and become part of the world again.

nah we don't want them

 

let them cross into the history books

[Mabari-Master]

They can leave and try to find new land to settle?  Becoming bandits is hard to justify... it's not like anyone is forcing them to stay in Orlais and Antiva...

The problem is there is no land for them to settle on, they had a homeland and it was taken from them. When you're forced to live in the wild and are persecuted and otherwise unwelcome everywhere you go, sometimes you have go to certain extremes to survive. That can be true for anyone, not just the Dalish.

[AutumnWitch]

 

That's amazing. I'm not sure why you're sharing your life story with me, but I thank you. Who knew we'd be such fast friends? Did you know none of those things matter to the Chantry? Just checking. In fact, most of those would make you the majority, not the minority. 

 

 

 

I can see too many similarities between the Chantry and "The Church"

 

If you can't make that small of an intellectual leap in understanding the comparison then perhaps you shouldn't be criticizing it?

[Master Warder Z_]

the Dalish are a pestilence

 

...That insults the first horsemen of the apocalypse

[Br3admax]

I can see too many similarities between the Chantry and "The Church"

 

If you can't make that small of an intellectual leap in understanding the comparison then perhaps you shouldn't be criticizing it?

There are none. 

 

Does that help? You saw a church and jumped on it. Completely disregarding that BioWare came up with this church. 

[Cainhurst Crow]

The problem is there is no land for them to settle on, they had a homeland and it was taken from them. When you're forced to live in the wild and are persecuted and otherwise unwelcome everywhere you go, sometimes you have go to certain extremes to survive. That can be true for anyone, not just the Dalish.

Well people don't tolerate that sort of thing from anyone but the dalish it seems. If you had a human group, say the Chasind, declared that people who weren't chasind needed to be wiped out, and that everyone in ferelden should die because ferelden was their homeland taken from them long ago, would any of these dalish supporters be in favor of that?

Because thats the same thing going on with the dalish today. They lost a war, lost their homeland, and now terrorize people who aren't them and cling to their past wounds like a security blanket.

[Steelcan]

...That insults the first horsemen of the apocalypse

[schall_und_rauch]

If the chantry goes, thedas will go down with it.

 

Rome was a centerpiece of its time as well, doing the same practices you proscribed the chantry did. When they fell, the people they once governed fell to ruination, ignorance, and anarchy. Marauding hordes became the dominant power, a cult of personality rose to take over the western world, the east grew powerful then highly isolationist, and the people fragmented into many little "kingdoms", waring amongst themselves and killing, raping, pillaging, and conquering for nearly a thousand years after. This period would come to be known as the dark ages, and it took rediscovering old knowledge in order for people to start pulling themselves out of the muck of what had been wrought before them to clammer back to a semblance of greatness again.

 

 

 

Eeek! Inaccurate historical comparison.

Rome was an imperial power, a government which had the strongest army, provided infrastructure and kept a web of allies. It ruled Europe during its time.

The equivalent of Rome in Thedas would be the Tevinter Imperium. The DA Writing team explicitly set Tevinter up to be the Roman analogue.

The Tevinter Imperium has already shrunk and lost a lot of its power. So by that analogy, Thedas has already fallen, and you can see the ruins of once great civilization of Tevinter everywhere.

 

Thedas is meanwhile in the dark ages. Continuing any historical analogy, the Chantry is equivalent to the Catholic Church. It has power, but the country is ruled by others. In many ways, the teachings of the Chantry is more similar to Christianity than to the Roman pantheon -- being a monotheism for one thing.

 

Soooo...what would happen if the Chantry would split or Thedas moved to a more secular age, where the Chantry wields less and less power. Secularization came together with the age of enlightenment, when people defined a codex of morality and free thought outside of "this is what the Church preaches, therefore, it must be good". 

 

In the end, what will happen to Thedas is what the BioWare writers think will make the best story and the best setup for future games. However, don't think that Thedas couldn't exist without the Chantry.

[AutumnWitch]

There are none. 

 

Does that help? You saw a church and jumped on it. Completely disregarding that BioWare came up with this church. 

If you can't see the connection denying it still doesn't make your point valid. Bury you head in the sand, it's you right, Just like what the Chantry does. How convenient

[Icy Magebane]

The problem is there is no land for them to settle on, they had a homeland and it was taken from them. When you're forced to live in the wild and are persecuted and otherwise unwelcome everywhere you go, sometimes you have go to certain extremes to survive. That can be true for anyone, not just the Dalish.

Looking at a map of Thedas, there are some unexplored territories to the northwest and southwest... I'm not sure what's out there exactly, but it's actually pretty lazy to not investigate this after 700 years of living in the wilderness as nomads.  If that doesn't work, they could try to figure out a way to use ships to find a new continent or even a large island.  Splintering off into clans and waging an unending guerrilla war isn't a solution.

 

I can understand acting out of necessity, but nobody is forcing the Dalish to commit murders or rebel against humanity.  After so many centuries with no attempt at finding an alternative to wandering the forests, they have lost their right to be seen as victims. It's time to move beyond that.

 

edit:  Let me just add that even though the Dalish are in a bad situation and have been for a long time, it simply does not excuse murder or banditry in my eyes.  That's not the answer to anything.

[Mabari-Master]

Another example of the Chantry's corruption is the events that led to the Templars having so much power in Kirkwall. Divine Beatrix III sent the Templars to depose Viscount Perrin Threnhold, not because he was a tyrant, but because he was heavily taxing Orlesian merchant ships and Emperor Florian, who was a friend of hers, asked her to take care of this matter for him.

 

She used her power to gain the favor of an emperor rather than using to depose a tyrant. Whether or not her intentions were good or bad is irrelevant, she used her power to gain favor and she set the precedent for Meredith's corrupt, tyrannical and oppressive hold on the city, which is what led to the Mage-Templar war.

[Master Warder Z_]

Another example of the Chantry's corruption is the events that led to the Templars having so much power in Kirkwall. Divine Beatrix III sent the Templars to depose Viscount Perrin Threnhold, not because he was a tyrant, but because he was heavily taxing Orlesian merchant ships and Emperor Florian, who was a friend of hers, asked her to take care of this matter for him.

 

She used her power to gain the favor of an emperor rather than using to depose a tyrant. Whether or not her intentions were good or bad is irrelevant, she used her power to gain favor and she set the precedent for Meredith's corrupt, tyrannical and oppressive hold on the city, which is what led to the Mage-Templar war.

 

You left out the bit where the Viscount had mercenaries burst into the gallows and hung the Knight Commander.

 

The that actually did lead to the deposing of the Viscount.

[Br3admax]

If you can't see the connection denying it still doesn't make your point valid. Bury you head in the sand, it's you right, Just like what the Chantry does. How convenient

You brought up you being a woman. Women are the most powerful people in Thedas, especially in the Chantry.

You brought up being a lesbian. So's the empress of the most powerful nation in the world, and no one cares. 

 You brought up your religion, the Chantry doesn't stop you from doing anything, the Chasind come to mind. 

You brought up hunting apostates. You ignored that they are a danger to everyone and are breaking the law of Thedas, not the Chantry. 

You brought up killing Dalish. You ignored the fact that the Dalish have been massacring and attacking humans for centuries. 

 

Just admit it. You hate it because it is a church, not because it is like the Catholic Church. 

[X Equestris]

The problem is there is no land for them to settle on, they had a homeland and it was taken from them. When you're forced to live in the wild and are persecuted and otherwise unwelcome everywhere you go, sometimes you have go to certain extremes to survive. That can be true for anyone, not just the Dalish.

And let's remember why they lost their homeland. The Dales became increasingly isolationist around the Second Blight. Their army stood right outside of Montsimmard and watched the darkspawn burn it down. The lead up to the war with the Dales is murky, but it is definite that the elves invaded Orlais. They sacked Montsimmard and were marching on Val Royeaux when the Exalted March was called. The elves ended up bringing ruin down on themselves. What did they think would happen? They can't have expected to defeat what was then the most powerful nation in the world.

[Mabari-Master]

Well people don't tolerate that sort of thing from anyone but the dalish it seems. If you had a human group, say the Chasind, declared that people who weren't chasind needed to be wiped out, and that everyone in ferelden should die because ferelden was their homeland taken from them long ago, would any of these dalish supporters be in favor of that?

Because thats the same thing going on with the dalish today. They lost a war, lost their homeland, and now terrorize people who aren't them and cling to their past wounds like a security blanket.

You're comparing apples to oranges. The Chasind have a homeland that they've learned to thrive in, the Dalish on the other hand are homeless.

 

I merely think that if the Dalish finally decided to reclaim their homeland for their people they would be in the right. And I don't see the Dalish terrorizing anyone, they just want to be left alone and are willing to fight if outsiders persecute them, like the Chantry or the Templars who hunt their Keepers.

[Master Warder Z_]

And let's remember why they lost their homeland. The Dales became increasingly isolationist around the Second Blight. Their army stood right outside of Montsimmard and watched the darkspawn burn it down. The lead up to the war with the Dales is murky, but it is definite that the elves invaded Orlais. They sacked Montsimmard and were marching on Val Royeaux when the Exalted March was called. The elves ended up bringing ruin down on themselves. What did they think would happen? They can't have expected to defeat what was then the most powerful nation in the world.

 

It was recovering from a blight at the time.

[X Equestris]

Eeek! Inaccurate historical comparison.
Rome was an imperial power, a government which had the strongest army, provided infrastructure and kept a web of allies. It ruled Europe during its time.
The equivalent of Rome in Thedas would be the Tevinter Imperium. The DA Writing team explicitly set Tevinter up to be the Roman analogue.
The Tevinter Imperium has already shrunk and lost a lot of its power. So by that analogy, Thedas has already fallen, and you can see the ruins of once great civilization of Tevinter everywhere.
 
Thedas is meanwhile in the dark ages. Continuing any historical analogy, the Chantry is equivalent to the Catholic Church. It has power, but the country is ruled by others. In many ways, the teachings of the Chantry is more similar to Christianity than to the Roman pantheon -- being a monotheism for one thing.
 
Soooo...what would happen if the Chantry would split or Thedas moved to a more secular age, where the Chantry wields less and less power. Secularization came together with the age of enlightenment, when people defined a codex of morality and free thought outside of "this is what the Church preaches, therefore, it must be good". 
 
In the end, what will happen to Thedas is what the BioWare writers think will make the best story and the best setup for future games. However, don't think that Thedas couldn't exist without the Chantry.

Well, they would all be Qunari if it weren't for the Chantry.

[Master Warder Z_]

I merely think that if the Dalish finally decided to reclaim their homeland

 

Which was given to them by Humans, who then decided to take it away when they started acting like obstinate children.

[AutumnWitch]

You brought up you being a woman. Women are the most powerful people in Thedas, especially in the Chantry.

You brought up being a lesbian. So's the empress of the most powerful nation in the world, and no one cares. 

 You brought up your religion, the Chantry doesn't stop you from doing anything, the Chasind come to mind. 

You brought up hunting apostates. You ignored that they are a danger to everyone and are breaking the law of Thedas, not the Chantry. 

You brought up killing Dalish. You ignored the fact that the Dalish have been massacring and attacking humans for centuries. 

 

Just admit it. You hate it because it is a church, not because it is like the Catholic Church. 

 

 

*rolls eyes* I can't argue with someone of your mighty intellectual prowess....yes, yes you are right. I bow to your mighty sage wisdom. (here have a cookie) Feel better now?

[Cainhurst Crow]

Eeek! Inaccurate historical comparison.
Rome was an imperial power, a government which had the strongest army, provided infrastructure and kept a web of allies. It ruled Europe during its time.
The equivalent of Rome in Thedas would be the Tevinter Imperium. The DA Writing team explicitly set Tevinter up to be the Roman analogue.
The Tevinter Imperium has already shrunk and lost a lot of its power. So by that analogy, Thedas has already fallen, and you can see the ruins of once great civilization of Tevinter everywhere.
 
Thedas is meanwhile in the dark ages. Continuing any historical analogy, the Chantry is equivalent to the Catholic Church. It has power, but the country is ruled by others. In many ways, the teachings of the Chantry is more similar to Christianity than to the Roman pantheon -- being a monotheism for one thing.
 
Soooo...what would happen if the Chantry would split or Thedas moved to a more secular age, where the Chantry wields less and less power. Secularization came together with the age of enlightenment, when people defined a codex of morality and free thought outside of "this is what the Church preaches, therefore, it must be good". 
 
In the end, what will happen to Thedas is what the BioWare writers think will make the best story and the best setup for future games. However, don't think that Thedas couldn't exist without the Chantry.

Nice history lesson though it doesn't diminish my point. I am aware the analogy is poor but it still applies to what would happen. Remove the hegemon from the equation, and the less powerful forces fight and tear each other apart fighting for the scraps.

Also theres a rather dangerous assumption in your own response that thedas is moving along some analogue of time similar to our own, that they will reach an "age of enlightenment" once the chantry has been done away with. It assumes that the tevinter imperium is not inspired from the roman empire but is the roman empire, and that the chantry is not inspired by the church but is the church, going through the same timeline our reality did.

Thedas is not at the age where it is ready to shrug off the chantry. Education is still done primarily through the chantry, initiatives to care for the poor or destitute are still only done by the chantry, and major academic endevours are done with the backing of the chantry, even if said findings prove to paint the chantry in a negative light if all the codex entries are any indication to go by.

Saying that there will be an age of enlightenment just because our own world went through an age of enlightenment, seems a bit silly don't you think?

[Cainhurst Crow]

You left out the bit where the Viscount had mercenaries burst into the gallows and hung the Knight Commander.
 
The that actually did lead to the deposing of the Viscount.

But he murdered a templar, he can't be a bad guy.

[Master Warder Z_]

 

You brought up you being a woman. Women are the most powerful people in Thedas, especially in the Chantry.

You brought up being a lesbian. So's the empress of the most powerful nation in the world, and no one cares. 

 You brought up your religion, the Chantry doesn't stop you from doing anything, the Chasind come to mind. 

You brought up hunting apostates. You ignored that they are a danger to everyone and are breaking the law of Thedas, not the Chantry. 

You brought up killing Dalish. You ignored the fact that the Dalish have been massacring and attacking humans for centuries. 

 

Just admit it. You hate it because it is a church, not because it is like the Catholic Church. 

 

 

*rolls eyes* I can't argue with someone of your mighty intellectual prowess....yes, yes you are right. I bow to your mighty sage wisdom. (here have a cookie) Feel better now?

 

 

Condescension looks better when you don't put it in a quote.

[Han Shot First]

Nope.

 

They are needed to keep the Qunbots out.