635 réponses à ce sujet

[AutumnWitch]

Condescension looks better when you don't put it in a quote.

 

That way he/she can take credit for it if she/he wants. Its a win-win

[Br3admax]

 

You brought up you being a woman. Women are the most powerful people in Thedas, especially in the Chantry.

You brought up being a lesbian. So's the empress of the most powerful nation in the world, and no one cares. 

 You brought up your religion, the Chantry doesn't stop you from doing anything, the Chasind come to mind. 

You brought up hunting apostates. You ignored that they are a danger to everyone and are breaking the law of Thedas, not the Chantry. 

You brought up killing Dalish. You ignored the fact that the Dalish have been massacring and attacking humans for centuries. 

 

Just admit it. You hate it because it is a church, not because it is like the Catholic Church. 

 

 

*rolls eyes* I can't argue with someone of your mighty intellectual prowess....yes, yes you are right. I bow to your mighty sage wisdom. (here have a cookie) Feel better now?

 

Lulz, it's funny because you quoted wrong. 

[X Equestris]

It was recovering from a blight at the time.

True enough. That doesn't mean it wasn't more powerful than the Dales.

[schall_und_rauch]

From the introduction of DAII:

 

Cassandra: Do you have any idea what's at stake here?

Varric: Let me guess. Your precious chantry has fallen into pieces and has put the entire world at the brink of war. And you want the one person who can put it back together.

 

 

That was even before the Nevarran accord was nulled by Lambert. Doesn't look too good on the chantry.

And if I am lying, feel free to call down the Wrath of the Maker on me!

You cannot...because he does not exist.

[Mabari-Master]

While I do

 

Which was given to them by Humans, who then decided to take it away when they started acting like obstinate children.

The Dales wasn't given to them by the Humans, it was claimed by them after the Long Walk. The Dalish wanted the Chantry to leave them alone and eventually pushed them to hostility.

[thetinyevil]

I will let the Chantry burn to the ground then spit on the ashes and never allow it's like to rise again. 

[X Equestris]

From the introduction of DAII:
 
Cassandra: Do you have any idea what's at stake here?
Varric: Let me guess. Your precious chantry has fallen into pieces and has put the entire world at the brink of war. And you want the one person who can put it back together.
 
 
That was even before the Nevarran accord was nulled by Lambert. Doesn't look too good on the chantry.
And if I am lying, feel free to call down the Wrath of the Maker on me!
You cannot...because does not exist.

Varric later mentions the Templars rebelling, so it is after the events of Asunder.

[Zakhar]

Personally, I don't see destroying the Chantry causing anything -good-. Considering it'd wipe away the one bit that keeps the nations of Thedas at least a tiny bit connected, that doesn't mean much maybe but considering the Qunari so near-by...

At any rate, I'd much rather see the Chantry reformed instead of outright destroyed.

[Br3admax]

From the introduction of DAII:

 

Cassandra: Do you have any idea what's at stake here?

Varric: Let me guess. Your precious chantry has fallen into pieces and has put the entire world at the brink of war. And you want the one person who can put it back together.

 

 

That was even before the Nevarran accord was nulled by Lambert. Doesn't look too good on the chantry.

And if I am lying, feel free to call down the Wrath of the Maker on me!

You cannot...because does not exist.

The Maker existing is irrelevant. The Chantry forms the foundry for Thedas right now. That's why the word is in chaos even before the Breach. 

[Cainhurst Crow]

You're comparing apples to oranges. The Chasind have a homeland that they've learned to thrive in, the Dalish on the other hand are homeless.
 
I merely think that if the Dalish finally decided to reclaim their homeland for their people they would be in the right. And I don't see the Dalish terrorizing anyone, they just want to be left alone and are willing to fight if outsiders persecute them, like the Chantry or the Templars who hunt their Keepers.

They'd be killing people who had nothing to do with their exile. People who weren't alive the centuries ago that it happened even. If you think the dalish wouldn't kill people just for being human then you didn't read the masked empire, where the dalish clan in that area had that exact mindset.

Honestly they aren't in the right anymore. Any action they do will be a reparation for an event centuries past. At that point, how could you call it anything else but people attacking innocent folks over something they didn't do?

[X Equestris]

While I do


The Dales wasn't given to them by the Humans, it was claimed by them after the Long Walk. The Dalish wanted the Chantry to leave them alone and eventually pushed them to hostility.

It was given to them by Maferath and Andraste's sons.

[Steelcan]

While I do

 

The Dales wasn't given to them by the Humans, it was claimed by them after the Long Walk. The Dalish wanted the Chantry to leave them alone and eventually pushed them to hostility.

No it was given to them for aiding Andraste in her rebellion

[umadcommander]

I will let the Chantry burn to the ground then spit on the ashes and never allow it's like to rise again. 

you cant change the world with just a box of matches, offering nothing to fill a massive void like the chantry being gone would be catastrophic

[Mabari-Master]

It was given to them by Maferath and Andraste's sons.

Yep, you're right sorry about that. But my opinion of the Dalish still stands.

[Master Warder Z_]

The Dales wasn't given to them by the Humans, it was claimed by them after the Long Walk. The Dalish wanted the Chantry to leave them alone and eventually pushed them to hostility.

 

And this is why people need to do research.

 

but in 1025 TE, Maferath and Andraste's sons gave the elves the Dales as a reward for their part in the war. 

 

http://dragonage.wikia.com/wiki/Dales

[A Clever Name]

Looking at a map of Thedas, there are some unexplored territories to the northwest and southwest... I'm not sure what's out there exactly, but it's actually pretty lazy to not investigate this after 700 years of living in the wilderness as nomads.  If that doesn't work, they could try to figure out a way to use ships to find a new continent or even a large island.  Splintering off into clans and waging an unending guerrilla war isn't a solution.

 

I can understand acting out of necessity, but nobody is forcing the Dalish to commit murders or rebel against humanity.  After so many centuries with no attempt at finding an alternative to wandering the forests, they have lost their right to be seen as victims. It's time to move beyond that.

Well, unexplored doesn't necessarily mean unsettled.  For example, the American settlers of the original colonies didn't explore beyond the Appalachians for quite some time, but there were still Native Americans that inhabited land far beyond the mountain range before they were even aware of the territory's geography.  While I do agree that waging guerrilla warfare is hardly a good solution, you can't really argue that it isn't a solution.  From our perspectives it's just a bad one.

 

Ugh, this is why I hate victimization.  Does there always have to be someone in the right and someone in the wrong?  Shades of gray, my friends, and not that horrid fanfic-turned-novel.  Keep in mind that what you might think of as necessity isn't going to be perceived as such by someone else - we all think differently.  That doesn't excuse violent acts, mind you, but it explains them.  Who determines who has a "right" to be a victim?  In my own cultural experiences no one wants to be seen as such - let alone dependent on the goodwill of the hegemony.  Which is why I find it wholly unrealistic that at least some Dalish clans haven't attempted to move beyond their dogma, but never you mind my opinion on that.  It has little to do with the thread's topic.

 

To answer OP (and this is wholly my opinion), I don't think it's a smart move politically or morally to be rid of the Chantry.  It has its flaws but so does every other organization in Thedas, and for the most part it provides a conformity that is admittedly necessary for an imperialistic system.  In a world that relies on balance of power, the Chantry is an important force for the Qun to wrestle with.  I would also advise against stripping people of their beliefs, even if you might not agree with them.  No power vacuums, pls.

 

EDIT: I dun goofed -  "think," not "thing."  Please ignore my spelling error.

[raging_monkey]

Well, unexplored doesn't necessarily mean unsettled.  For example, the American settlers of the original colonies didn't explore beyond the Appalachians for quite some time, but there were still Native Americans that inhabited land far beyond the mountain range before they were even aware of the territory's geography.  While I do agree that waging guerrilla warfare is hardly a good solution, you can't really argue that it isn't a solution.  From our perspectives it's just a bad one. Ugh, this is why I hate victimization.  Does there always have to be someone in the right and someone in the wrong?  Shades of gray, my friends, and not that horrid fanfic-turned-novel.  Keep in mind that what you might thing of as necessity isn't going to be perceived as such by someone else - we all think differently.  That doesn't excuse violent acts, mind you, but it explains them.  Who determines who has a "right" to be a victim?  In my own cultural experiences no one wants to be seen as such - let alone dependent on the goodwill of the hegemony.  Which is why I find it wholly unrealistic that at least some Dalish clans haven't attempted to move beyond their dogma, but never you mind my opinion on that.  It has little to do with the thread's topic. To answer OP (and this is wholly my opinion), I don't think it's a smart move politically or morally to be rid of the Chantry.  It has its flaws but so does every other organization in Thedas, and for the most part it provides a conformity that is admittedly necessary for an imperialistic system.  In a world that relies on balance of power, the Chantry is an important force for the Qun to wrestle with.  I would also advise against stripping people of their beliefs, even if you might not agree with them.  No power vacuums, pls.

Well, unexplored doesn't necessarily mean unsettled.  For example, the American settlers of the original colonies didn't explore beyond the Appalachians for quite some time, but there were still Native Americans that inhabited land far beyond the mountain range before they were even aware of the territory's geography.  While I do agree that waging guerrilla warfare is hardly a good solution, you can't really argue that it isn't a solution.  From our perspectives it's just a bad one. Ugh, this is why I hate victimization.  Does there always have to be someone in the right and someone in the wrong?  Shades of gray, my friends, and not that horrid fanfic-turned-novel.  Keep in mind that what you might thing of as necessity isn't going to be perceived as such by someone else - we all think differently.  That doesn't excuse violent acts, mind you, but it explains them.  Who determines who has a "right" to be a victim?  In my own cultural experiences no one wants to be seen as such - let alone dependent on the goodwill of the hegemony.  Which is why I find it wholly unrealistic that at least some Dalish clans haven't attempted to move beyond their dogma, but never you mind my opinion on that.  It has little to do with the thread's topic. To answer OP (and this is wholly my opinion), I don't think it's a smart move politically or morally to be rid of the Chantry.  It has its flaws but so does every other organization in Thedas, and for the most part it provides a conformity that is admittedly necessary for an imperialistic system.  In a world that relies on balance of power, the Chantry is an important force for the Qun to wrestle with.  I would also advise against stripping people of their beliefs, even if you might not agree with them.  No power vacuums, pls.

but people want this for some reason

[schall_und_rauch]

Nice history lesson though it doesn't diminish my point. I am aware the analogy is poor but it still applies to what would happen. Remove the hegemon from the equation, and the less powerful forces fight and tear each other apart fighting for the scraps.

 

Also theres a rather dangerous assumption in your own response that thedas is moving along some analogue of time similar to our own, that they will reach an "age of enlightenment" once the chantry has been done away with. It assumes that the tevinter imperium is not inspired from the roman empire but is the roman empire, and that the chantry is not inspired by the church but is the church, going through the same timeline our reality did.

Thedas is not at the age where it is ready to shrug off the chantry. Education is still done primarily through the chantry, initiatives to care for the poor or destitute are still only done by the chantry, and major academic endevours are done with the backing of the chantry, even if said findings prove to paint the chantry in a negative light if all the codex entries are any indication to go by.
 

Saying that there will be an age of enlightenment just because our own world went through an age of enlightenment, seems a bit silly don't you think?

 

It was your justification for "the world will end if the chanry will end" that was based on the real world. I am just saying that if you applied that logic, but used the correct analogies, you would reach a very different result.

I also said very explicitly that what happens with Thedas is basicly whatever the writers want to let happen to Thedas. 

But I am glad to see how silly it is to base your prediction of the fate of Thedas on the real world.

 

Again, the Chantry is no hegemon. It does not rule and has limited political, muss less military power (especially now since the Nevarran accord has been nulled).

There are a lot of other forces available to fill any spots the chantry leaves empty. There are actually a number of other insitutions that take care of education. Val Royeux has an excellent university sponsored by the Empire. 

As for everybody ripping each other to shreds: That's what is already happening with the chantry in charge. Nothing new there.

[Cainhurst Crow]

It was your justification for "the world will end if the chanry will end" that was based on the real world. I am just saying that if you applied that logic, but used the correct analogies, you would reach a very different result.
I also said very explicitly that what happens with Thedas is basicly whatever the writers want to let happen to Thedas. 
But I am glad to see how silly it is to base your prediction of the fate of Thedas on the real world.
 
Again, the Chantry is no hegemon. It does not rule and has limited political, muss less military power (especially now since the Nevarran accord has been nulled).
There are a lot of other forces available to fill any spots the chantry leaves empty. There are actually a number of other insitutions that take care of education. Val Royeux has an excellent university sponsored by the Empire. 
As for everybody ripping each other to shreds: That's what is already happening with the chantry in charge. Nothing new there.

I believe you are misinterpreting what is going on in this thread. I used the example of rome to illustrate the point of the consequences in one of the largest powers of a world collapsing, rather suddenly and unexpectedly in fact. You taking that as some sort of faulty assumption that the timelines of our world and thedas being conjoined was simply a folly on your own point, good sir. Not any of my doing I assure you.

And the university sounds good, on paper. But I assume there are costs to going to this university? I would also assume this is an institution of higher learning, implied through its name as a university and not, say, an academy. And I would assume, given this is orlais, that attendance would be something related to the nobles of society, and not say a commoner from the lower quarters of the city.

Also, I would like to hear ones that provide care for the lower class of society in the same capacity as the chantry, that wouldn't simply install another religious, and possibly less tolerant, regime in charge such as the qunari.

You are making an assertion that the world would do just fine without the chantry. Proof of this claim would be appreciated, perferably from either the Dragon Age Wiki or World of Thedas book, only because you are assuming the existence of an organization in the lore, while I am assuming a sociological behavior that could be present within the world of dragon age.

[X Equestris]

It was your justification for "the world will end if the chanry will end" that was based on the real world. I am just saying that if you applied that logic, but used the correct analogies, you would reach a very different result.
I also said very explicitly that what happens with Thedas is basicly whatever the writers want to let happen to Thedas. 
But I am glad to see how silly it is to base your prediction of the fate of Thedas on the real world.
 
Again, the Chantry is no hegemon. It does not rule and has limited political, muss less military power (especially now since the Nevarran accord has been nulled).
There are a lot of other forces available to fill any spots the chantry leaves empty. There are actually a number of other insitutions that take care of education. Val Royeux has an excellent university sponsored by the Empire. 
As for everybody ripping each other to shreds: That's what is already happening with the chantry in charge. Nothing new there.

That university is heavily influenced by the Chantry, however.

The Chantry may not rule or have military power, but it does have influence. The Catholic Church of Medieval Europe had plenty of influence, even though its military power and rule over territory was limited, but it was one of the most powerful organizations on the continent. Likewise, the Chantry has power over the hearts and minds of the people of southern Thedas.

If the Chantry ever does fall, or even if it is substantially weakened, you could expect a Qunari invasion. The Chantry's unifying influence is one of the main reasons the Qunari didn't manage to conquer and convert the population of Thedas the first time around.

[SgtSteel91]

I'm assuming the current Grand Cleric dies in the beginning and the remaining heads of the Chantry retreat to elect a new Grand Cleric.

 

But maybe you can influence who the new Grand Cleric is going to be and help them push reforms you agree with?

[schall_und_rauch]

To clarify what I do think:

I believe that the plot of DA:I will contain some big surprises and theological revelations about the Maker and the Black City and the Fade. It will be something that none of us expects. And those revelations will change the world, putting Thedas in a state that is extremely hard to forsee.

It could be "there was never a Maker, the City was always Black, and we were lied to all along" -- in which case the Chantry dissolves, and Thedas has to find a new religion/ideology.

It could be a confirmation of what the Chantry teaches, strengthening it and transforming it, perhaps even turning into a really dominant, tyranical rule.

 

Why I think those could be two feasible world states? Because both of them -- a world which has lost its inner ideology and must search for its soul as well as a world dominated by the tyranny of absolute power of an ideology -- make interesting starting points for DA4 and allow cool new stories to be told.

 

And it absolutely doesn't matter whether I or anybody here believes the Chantry is good and Thedas needs it or it is a bad control mechanism and needs to be removed. It's about people who want to tell an interesting story, so they will shape the world to make it interesting.

[Asdrubael Vect]

Thedas lived for more than 7500 years without any Olrias Empire, Orlais Chantry and their Chantry Circles and Templar bastards

 

for all what history of Thedas learn us with Orlais Chantry we have more bad sh*t and blood that was in Ancient Tevinter who was ruled by Old Gods with their army of dragons and deamons who eat humans

 

many in Thedas lived for more than 8500 years without any Orlais Chantry and yeah they are was and still magocraty societies...words about "another Ancient Tevinter" is not make sense because old gods are gone and Tevinter Magisters was the first who destroy their Temples, kill those who was protest and after creating Grey Wardens with Elves who give them knoledges kill 3 Archdeamons

 

with fall of Orlais empire with his Orlais Chantry 95% of entire Thedas will be happy..and if we would talk about Andrastians they will turn themselfs into Nevarran or the orthodox Tevinter Chantriy of Maker

[Vaseldwa]

While I dont agree with everything the chantry does or how they think, religion aside the templars are needed. The mages while oppressed, do nothing to prove that they deserve freedom and drag everyone around them into there "freedom fight", which only makes there situation worse. Both sides have there major pros and cons that justifies choosing to side with either one. To me Its all like a tripod, kick one leg out and the rest fall. They all need each other to some extent, to let the chantry fall completely would not be a good idea. I am the person in the middle telling both sides that they need each other and that yes some things need to change, but should not be torn down completely. 

[X Equestris]

I'm assuming the current Grand Cleric dies in the beginning and the remaining heads of the Chantry retreat to elect a new Grand Cleric.
 
But maybe you can influence who the new Grand Cleric is going to be and help them push reforms you agree with?

You mean the Divine, but I agree, the Divine is extremely likely to be killed off at the start of the game. I also hope that one can influence the election for her replacement if she is dead,

Thedas lived for more than 7500 years without any Olrias Empire, Orlais Chantry and their Chantry Circles and Templar bastards
 
for all what history of Thedas learn us with Orlais Chantry we have more bad sh*t and blood that was in Ancient Tevinter who was ruled by Old Gods with their army of dragons and deamons who eat humans
 
many in Thedas lived for more than 8500 years without any Orlais Chantry and yeah they are was and still magocraty societies...words about "another Ancient Tevinter" is not make sense because old gods are gone and Tevinter Magisters was the first who destroy their Temples, kill those who was protest and after creating Grey Wardens with Elves who give them knoledges kill 3 Archdeamons
 
with fall of Orlais empire with his Orlais Chantry 95% of entire Thedas will be happy..and if we would talk about Andrastians they will turn themselfs into Nevarran or the orthodox Tevinter Chantriy of Maker

There is no Nevarran Chantry. They follow the White Divine, in Val Royeaux, just like all of the Chantries outside Tevinter.