There is no Nevarran Chantry. They follow the White Divine, in Val Royeaux, just like all of the Chantries outside Tevinter.
Nevarra is ruled by Mortalitasy necromances-blood mages order who was created by Tevinter magister
They does not follow White Divine and Orlais Chantry and they are enemies of Orlais,,,even Orlais Chantry priest by Orlais Empire are not allowed to go in Nevarra like in Tevinter what Genivity wrote
You are making an assertion that the world would do just fine without the chantry. Proof of this claim would be appreciated, perferably from either the Dragon Age Wiki or World of Thedas book, only because you are assuming the existence of an organization in the lore, while I am assuming a sociological behavior that could be present within the world of dragon age.
I have addressed what I think what will happen to Thedas: Whatever the writers want.
However, it was your original claim that Thedas will fall if the Chantry will fall, so the burden of proof lies on you. I have merely pointed out that your main argument is faulty, because the structure and political influence of Rome is completely different than the influence of the Chantry.
Interestingly enough, you request a proof from me, while your original assertion is backed merely by an assumption of what "could be", rather than bringing up any proof from the sources you mentioned.
As for any reasonable indication of what would happen to Thedas: The dwarves and Dalish elves wouldn't give a damn, the Qunari would be glad to see it gone, Tevinter would probably need some readjustment, but in the end, it would remain a mageocracy and the Chasind might not even notice it.
Nevarra is ruled by Mortalitasy necromances-blood mages order who was created by Tevinter magister
They does not follow White Divine and Orlais Chantry and they are enemies of Orlais,,,even Orlais Chantry priest by Orlais Empire are not allowed to go in Nevarra like in Tevinter what Genivity wrote
._.
Genitivi was turned back at the border by Orelsians, not Nevarrans.
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Genitivi was turned back at the border by Orelsians, not Nevarrans.
,even Orlais Chantry priest by Orlais Empire are not allowed to go in Nevarra
If the Chantry ever does fall, or even if it is substantially weakened, you could expect a Qunari invasion. The Chantry's unifying influence is one of the main reasons the Qunari didn't manage to conquer and convert the population of Thedas the first time around.
Probably. And it wouldn't be the end of the world. And maybe other forces will rise to come up against the Qunari again.
Maybe the next Blight starts then in Qunari lands, and the Wardens strike a deal with the remaining nobility to let the Qunari bleed dry for a while, before the Wardens take over, and then hand the land back to the old rulers.
Or maybe Tevinter sees the threat and strikes a deal with the rulers of Orlais, Fereldan and Nevarra to unite forces against the Qunari.
Or maybe an Old God Baby comes along and demands that everybody worships it and its mother (which is always a good idea!)
My point is that we simply don't have enough information to know what will happen "in the long run".
,even Orlais Chantry priest by Orlais Empire are not allowed to go in Nevarra
You said that,i recall.
I however do not recall seeing it anywhere else.
Source.
Well, unexplored doesn't necessarily mean unsettled. For example, the American settlers of the original colonies didn't explore beyond the Appalachians for quite some time, but there were still Native Americans that inhabited land far beyond the mountain range before they were even aware of the territory's geography. While I do agree that waging guerrilla warfare is hardly a good solution, you can't really argue that it isn't a solution. From our perspectives it's just a bad one.
That may be the case, but the fact that we don't know what's beyond the mountains indicates that the Dalish haven't made any attempt to find out... in 700 years. After the first 300 years, it should have been obvious that hanging around on the outskirts of civilization, and even going so far as to randomly attack humans in the case of the more violent clans, wasn't solving anything. 400 years after that, I have to wonder what's keeping them in the woodlands of nations that they hold such animosity towards. If they fear the Chantry sending Templars for their mages, that's even more of a reason to leave rather than prolong the situation by staying within the borders of nations where they are outlaws by definition. Even though I can sympathize with the Dalish, they need to come up with a better strategy if they are going to survive. Attacking humans out of "necessity" is just going to ensure that the hostility between these two groups lingers.
Ugh, this is why I hate victimization. Does there always have to be someone in the right and someone in the wrong? Shades of gray, my friends, and not that horrid fanfic-turned-novel. Keep in mind that what you might think of as necessity isn't going to be perceived as such by someone else - we all think differently. That doesn't excuse violent acts, mind you, but it explains them. Who determines who has a "right" to be a victim? In my own cultural experiences no one wants to be seen as such - let alone dependent on the goodwill of the hegemony. Which is why I find it wholly unrealistic that at least some Dalish clans haven't attempted to move beyond their dogma, but never you mind my opinion on that. It has little to do with the thread's topic.
I'm not the biggest fan of the grey morality argument. There's a such thing as right and wrong in my eyes, no matter what explanations a person comes up with to justify certain actions. I hope you'll excuse my choice of words, but once the Dalish have exhausted all possibilities and come to the conclusion that banditry is the only means of survival, then they will have "earned the right" to be considered victims. Then their actions might be considered justified rather than spiteful, hateful, and petty.
I also don't understand your dispute over the term "victim," when that is clearly the cornerstone of their argument with the humans... but you're right, this is off-topic so I'll just leave it at that I guess. I wouldn't even be talking about this had someone not tried to argue that the Dalish are only dangerous when provoked. This is simply false, regardless of what else I may think of them.
To answer OP (and this is wholly my opinion), I don't think it's a smart move politically or morally to be rid of the Chantry. It has its flaws but so does every other organization in Thedas, and for the most part it provides a conformity that is admittedly necessary for an imperialistic system. In a world that relies on balance of power, the Chantry is an important force for the Qun to wrestle with. I would also advise against stripping people of their beliefs, even if you might not agree with them. No power vacuums, pls.
Agreed, although I have my doubts about any of this mattering in the end...
Interestingly enough, you request a proof from me, while your original assertion is backed merely by an assumption of what "could be", rather than bringing up any proof from the sources you mentioned.
My point is that we simply don't have enough information to know what will happen "in the long run".
Nevarra is ruled by Mortalitasy necromances-blood mages order who was created by Tevinter magister
They does not follow White Divine and Orlais Chantry and they are enemies of Orlais,,,even Orlais Chantry priest by Orlais Empire are not allowed to go in Nevarra like in Tevinter what Genivity wrote
I have no love of the Chantry, but it seems to me that most of its leadership structure is going to die in Inquisition. The Chantry can possibly be a unifier of people, and that alone may make them worth supporting.
Heck, it may even be possible to have the Chantry in service to the Inquisition.
Because while I made a statement of what could happen, you made a definite statement instead. One of there being other organizations that can fill the chantries roll. Had I said something like, "If the chantry falls, Ferelden would kill all the mabari" that would be a definite statement singling out specific persons or entities. What I did was said the chantry falling would result in chaos, and listed an example of such a fall causing chaos. You took umbridge with the exact historical analogy but never refuted the statement I made, or the fact that my statements evidence was listed and that it was simply the historical context you didn't like in it.
So I ask again, what organizations can take on the role of the chantry right now?
You make several false claims.
You specifically state:
If the chantry goes, thedas will go down with it.
Make no mistake that without a powerful non-territory bound organization in place, the world of thedas will most likely tear itself asunder. Wars will be waged, blood will be split, and all you will do is replace the one religious overseer with a entire host of nationalist overseers, with no need for such silly things as laws against slavery or aid to the poor to bog them down, as they would have with the chantry's rallying.
That doesn't sound like "oh, this could happen, we don't know". Meanwhile, I explicitly, repeatedly said that whatever happens is what the writers wish to happen.
As for wars -- hey, they happen constantly even with the Church around. Blood is also constantly spilled, both the Warden and Hawke spilled liters of it, and Loghain added his part. We already have nationalist overseer -- ask Gaspard or Loghain. And we have legalized slavery under the rule of the church -- check Tevinter. The alienages and lowtown and darktown of Kirkwall also happens under the eye of the Church. However, I didn't see too many sisters feeding the poor there. Everything that you say will happen once the Chantry will fall is already true. As for Thedas tearing itself asunder...I expect we will see that in DA:I.
Fact is: The Chantry does not provide today an ordered world. There is no state of grace to fall from.
Nowhere did I say that there was one single institution to fill the role of the Chantry. However, Mr. SPQR has indicated to me that one very likely solution is that the Qunari will take over for a certain time. And if there is anything that the Qun does then it is provide order, structure and purpose.
So if you are against chaos and want structure and everybody having a place in this world, and no more poors, the best thing you could hope for is the Chantry going and the Qunari coming to save us all.
You make several false claims.
You specifically state:
That doesn't sound like "oh, this could happen, we don't know". Meanwhile, I explicitly, repeatedly said that whatever happens is what the writers wish to happen.
As for wars -- hey, they happen constantly even with the Church around. Blood is also constantly spilled, both the Warden and Hawke spilled liters of it, and Loghain added his part. We already have nationalist overseer -- ask Gaspard or Loghain. And we have legalized slavery under the rule of the church -- check Tevinter. The alienages and lowtown and darktown of Kirkwall also happens under the eye of the Church. However, I didn't see too many sisters feeding the poor there. Everything that you say will happen once the Chantry will fall is already true. As for Thedas tearing itself asunder...I expect we will see that in DA:I.
Fact is: The Chantry does not provide today an ordered world. There is no state of grace to fall from.
Nowhere did I say that there was one single institution to fill the role of the Chantry. However, Mr. SPQR has indicated to me that one very likely solution is that the Qunari will take over for a certain time. And if there is anything that the Qun does then it is provide order, structure and purpose.
So if you are against chaos and want structure and everybody having a place in this world, and no more poors, the best thing you could hope for is the Chantry going and the Qunari coming to save us all.
LOL, so true, in a morbid sort of way.
I apply a "The Devil you know" attitude to the Chantry. Ultimately it's better for them to be here rather than the Qunari or some other religion that's even worse than how the Chantry's acted in the setting so far.
Because while I made a statement of what could happen, you made a definite statement instead. One of there being other organizations that can fill the chantries roll. Had I said something like, "If the chantry falls, Ferelden would kill all the mabari" that would be a definite statement singling out specific persons or entities. What I did was said the chantry falling would result in chaos, and listed an example of such a fall causing chaos. You took umbridge with the exact historical analogy but never refuted the statement I made, or the fact that my statements evidence was listed and that it was simply the historical context you didn't like in it.So I ask again, what organizations can take on the role of the chantry right now?
You make several false claims.
You specifically state:
That doesn't sound like "oh, this could happen, we don't know". Meanwhile, I explicitly, repeatedly said that whatever happens is what the writers wish to happen.
As for wars -- hey, they happen constantly even with the Church around. Blood is also constantly spilled, both the Warden and Hawke spilled liters of it, and Loghain added his part. We already have nationalist overseer -- ask Gaspard or Loghain. And we have legalized slavery under the rule of the church -- check Tevinter. The alienages and lowtown and darktown of Kirkwall also happens under the eye of the Church. However, I didn't see too many sisters feeding the poor there. Everything that you say will happen once the Chantry will fall is already true. As for Thedas tearing itself asunder...I expect we will see that in DA:I.
Fact is: The Chantry does not provide today an ordered world. There is no state of grace to fall from.
Nowhere did I say that there was one single institution to fill the role of the Chantry. However, Mr. SPQR has indicated to me that one very likely solution is that the Qunari will take over for a certain time. And if there is anything that the Qun does then it is provide order, structure and purpose.
So if you are against chaos and want structure and everybody having a place in this world, and no more poors, the best thing you could hope for is the Chantry going and the Qunari coming to save us all.
The question is, is the Qun the sort of order you want. The near eradication of self is somewhat disturbing.
As much as I don't like the Chantry, I can see the reason why it's necessary to have them around and the good thing from them. I want to reform the Chantry by cleansing the corruption inside this organization, and strips them of military power make them a lot less powerful than before.
Well the chantry is a religious organization. When Rome fell their religion survived. You are comparing a governing body to a religion. Plus the inquisition has already steped up to take the chantry's place now that they have no leadership. If the chantry falls their are still governing bodies to maintain order in society. For example a king rules ferelden not the chantry.
I apply a "The Devil you know" attitude to the Chantry. Ultimately it's better form them to be here rather than be replaced by the Qunari or some other religion that's even worse than how the Chantry's acted in the setting so far.
How about the "Not picking any devil and taking my chances" option?
It won't be pretty or clean, but that's Thedas' best bet at the moment. Any devil is still out to screw you regardless of if you know them or not.
Are you asking what I want for Thedas or what any of my charcters want?
Personally, I don't want any order, because chaos makes for better rpgs and cooler stories.
Even though I doubt any of those are the question, because it's not for me to decide if the Qun will rule.
But, yeah, I agree, the Qun is a bit disturbing. While individualism isn't high on the priority list of most religions, the Qun kinda takes it to extremes.
How about the "Not picking any devil and taking my chances" option?
It won't be pretty or clean, but that's Thedas' best bet at the moment. Any devil is still out to screw you regardless of if you know them or not.
...Okay?
...Okay?
It has some merits, but I've seen that quote get overused too often. Even there's a possible option that doesn't involve working with "the devil" at all.
And let's remember why they lost their homeland.
According to which historical account? The ones written by the City Elves and the Dalish, or the one written by the Chantry of Andraste? Because there are at least two different versions about who started the war, and which side initially invaded the other.
The Dales became increasingly isolationist around the Second Blight. Their army stood right outside of Montsimmard and watched the darkspawn burn it down.
So the elves isolated themselves from a neighbor who was conquering the rest of their neighbors. That's not really surprising. According to Genitivi's History of the Chantry, Part 4, "There were many converts, including powerful people in the Imperium and in the city-states of what is now Orlais. Such was the power of the Maker's word that the young King Drakon undertook a series of Exalted Marches meant to unite the city-states and create an empire solely dedicated to the Maker's will. The Orlesian Empire became the seat of the Chantry's power, the Grand Cathedral in Val Royeaux the source of the movement that birthed the organized Chantry as we know it today."
There's also the fact that Drakon's issues with the Dales prevented him from conquering the Free Marches, which is why he turned to using missionaries to spread the word of the Chantry. According to the timeline, "Having conquered several neighboring city-states and forcing the submission of others to his overlordship, Kordillus Drakon is crowned in Val Royeaux as emperor. His ambitions to spread farther north into the Free Marches are confounded by constant pressures from the Dales to the east, so Emperor Drakon formalizes the Maker’s cult into the Chantry and commands that missionaries be sent forth into the other lands." Clearly, the Dales faced problems from Orlais during Drakon's reign, so I can see why the elves wanted nothing to do with the Orlesian Empire.
The lead up to the war with the Dales is murky, but it is definite that the elves invaded Orlais. They sacked Montsimmard and were marching on Val Royeaux when the Exalted March was called. The elves ended up bringing ruin down on themselves. What did they think would happen? They can't have expected to defeat what was then the most powerful nation in the world.
Well, the Dalish claim the Chantry invaded the Dales because the elves wouldn't convert (which is also what the elven Warden can verbally condemn the Chantry for), so retaliating against a conquering foe would put the actions of the elves in an entirely different light than what you're suggesting. Context matters.
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