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[teh DRUMPf!!]

There is no moral reason to side with Templars.

 

Well if you support Anders on moral grounds, one could argue that an annulment would do more for his plan than saving the Circle. Which outcome would get the Circles to rise up? If mages win the battle, many (if not most) will stick around and comply with the Templar reinforcements when they arrive, and those who take the opportunity to run free are the types that Circle mages typically want to distance themselves from. Showing mages that they can be free will not suddenly make them choose it when they've already chosen loyalty to the Chantry over their freedom in the first place, and when they also see many of their peers do the same when they have the best opportunity to run for it.

 

Now, if the Templars win and annul the Circle for questionable reasons ... that is the kind of event that would spur outrage enough to fuel rebellion, as a sort of "wake-up call" showing how much power the Templars hold over them. In that event, you can bet that virtually all mages would demand to see measures taken against that happening again (lest it happens to them) at the very least.

 

Ironic, isn't it? You hear arguments from Anders-proponents defending his decision to bomb the Chantry, saying that such violence is a necessary catalyst for bringing about positive change, and "the times" and all that. What if (hypothtical dilemma here) you were given indisputable reason to believe that the only way to lead the mages to rise up against the Chantry is to side with the Templars here, and that siding with the mages will just lead to more of the same Chantry control of mages? Yeah, suddenly that whole thing about "necessity" becomes very different when you actually care about the victims if question!

 

Then again, The Kirkwall Incident was not responsible for the coming mage/Templar war anyway (lol Anders fails again) so saving the mages is a better choice for narrative continuity.

[ChaplainTappman]

My Hawkes, regardless of allegiance, always kill Anders. It's an emotional, impulsive choice, but my Hawkes and I will never regret it.

 

For one thing, he betrayed them. Betrayed their trust, lied and manipulated Hawke for murderous, self-serving purposes.

 

More importantly, what else realistically could be done? By Anders' own admission, Vengeance is in control. Anders is, by all but the most apologetic definition, an abomination. And he's demonstrated what he's capable of doing, and what he's willing to do. Let go, he'll only escalate in severity and violence.

[Bardox9]

Actually tranquility was never an option on Anders. If you read asunder about tranquility cure and paid attention to what he did with Karl (temporay curing him bu just using magic nearby him) Anders like all the possessed mages is completely immune to tranquility. His connection to the fade can never be severed when a piece of fade itself lives inside him, shining like a beacon, literally.

 

Both of those mages were already Tranquil when the spirit/demon restored their link to the fade (temporary or no). I don't know of any possessed mage that has gone through the rite with an invading spirit already inside them. If there is a piece of lore I'm missing, drop me a link.

[Lulupab]

Both of those mages were already Tranquil when the spirit/demon restored their link to the fade (temporary or no). I don't know of any possessed mage that has gone through the rite with an invading spirit already inside them. If there is a piece of lore I'm missing, drop me a link.

What link do you want? Possession even temporarily which we call an entity touching the mind of the tranquil cures the tranquility. This much we know about. There is no cure for possession. How are we going to make a mage tranquil when his mind is constantly touched by a fade entity? We don't really need a link really. Possessed mages are immune to tranquility unless we find a cure for possession as well.

[Lulupab]

Well if you support Anders on moral grounds, one could argue that an annulment would do more for his plan than saving the Circle. Which outcome would get the Circles to rise up? If mages win the battle, many (if not most) will stick around and comply with the Templar reinforcements when they arrive, and those who take the opportunity to run free are the types that Circle mages typically want to distance themselves from. Showing mages that they can be free will not suddenly make them choose it when they've already chosen loyalty to the Chantry over their freedom in the first place, and when they also see many of their peers do the same when they have the best opportunity to run for it.
 
Now, if the Templars win and annul the Circle for questionable reasons ... that is the kind of event that would spur outrage enough to fuel rebellion, as a sort of "wake-up call" showing how much power the Templars hold over them. In that event, you can bet that virtually all mages would demand to see measures taken against that happening again (lest it happens to them) at the very least.
 
Ironic, isn't it? You hear arguments from Anders-proponents defending his decision to bomb the Chantry, saying that such violence is a necessary catalyst for bringing about positive change, and "the times" and all that. What if (hypothtical dilemma here) you were given indisputable reason to believe that the only way to lead the mages to rise up against the Chantry is to side with the Templars here, and that siding with the mages will just lead to more of the same Chantry control of mages? Yeah, suddenly that whole thing about "necessity" becomes very different when you actually care about the victims if question!
 
Then again, The Kirkwall Incident was not responsible for the coming mage/Templar war anyway (lol Anders fails again) so saving the mages is a better choice for narrative continuity.

The major problem with your argument is Anders made the annulment PRETTY OBVIOUS, meaning no one can deny that the mages were annulled for something they absolutely had nothing to with. He completely removed any room for "fixing" crime. Everyone knows that Meredith would have annulled the circle anyway and she would have used a cover such as blood magic or corruption to make it justified. With what Anders did it was no longer possible and mages got very hostile towards templars and when events of asunder occurred rebellion happened. The point, in any event, is that violent, murderous revolutionaries play JUST as much a role in bringing about positive changes to injustice as anyone else. Whether you like it or not, that's a fact of history. And one of the biggest ways they do it is exactly as did Anders: by giving reasonable people cause to step back and say "Hey, templars, you can't rise up and slaughter all the mages of every Circle in Thedas for the actions of one lone fanatic," which can quickly lead to "Hey, maybe part of the problem is that mages are being forced into desperate situations. We should rectify this." These people bring the corruptions and faults of opposing party (Templars in this case) to daylight and give opportunity for leaders such as Fiona to rise up and lead.

Lets just make it clear that I don't support what Anders did, I support sparing him afterwards. But Anders played as much as role in bringing the rebellion as Asunder characters. Sure he didn't start it right away but after what he did mages were very angry at Templars and some circles were at the verge of rebellion before the summit in asunder. This anger towards Templars was pretty much the main motivation behind mages joing the rebellion because every single circle rebelled and joined up.

[Elite Midget]

Eh, Meredith could have called an Annulment much earlier if that was always her intention. After all, Meredith still considers Mages to be children to watch over hence why, even in her insanity, she didn't try and annul them until after Anders destroyed the Chantry. She was also right that the people WOULD demand blood and that's exactly what happened. The only way to curb the chaos was to step up and Mages were the easy scapegoat as Anders was a Mage and Blood Mages have been terrorizing the City for years. Not to mention that much evidence pointed, rightly, that a lot of Blood Mages came from the Circle itself.

 

 

This is also important in my perspective. When siding with mages you are killing Templars and when Carver says he is on your side just like Bethany the option to kill him is not even given because there is simply no reason to. He doesn't have to die just becaise he is a Templar and he is joining you to fight.

But when Bethany does the same the option to kill her is there because according to right of annulment she has to die and sparing her kinda makes Hawke a hypocrite but its the right choice morally. However you just killed many more sisters, mothers sons etc... for something they didn't do.

As I said above, I saw no moral reason to side with Templars.

You can spare surrendering Mages if you side with the Templars as the Templars deeply respect Hawke thus they differ to Hawke over Meredith. It's why Meredith doesn't push the issue if you try and spare Bethany as well because Meredith knows that Hawke is very popular and that not all the Templars under her want to kill all the Circle Mages even when that is their orders/duty. They simply wanted to restore Order to the city and were grieving over the loss of the Grand Cleric.

 

It's a reality of the situation that Hawke siding with the Templars ends up with a better Kirkwall as Hawke, due to their popularity/influence, is able to calm the populace, be put in a position of real power to enact changes, and can convince the people and the Templars that not all Mages are evil by sparing Mages/Bethany or being a Mage them-self as the people want Hawke to lead, if Hawke sides with the Templars, even if Hawke is a Mage.

[Lulupab]

Eh, Meredith could have called an Annulment much earlier if that was always her intention. After all, Meredith still considers Mages to be children to watch over hence why, even in her insanity, she didn't try and annul them until after Anders destroyed the Chantry. She was also right that the people WOULD demand blood and that's exactly what happened. The only way to curb the chaos was to step up and Mages were the easy scapegoat as Anders was a Mage and Blood Mages have been terrorizing the City for years. Not to mention that much evidence pointed, rightly, that a lot of Blood Mages came from the Circle itself.

 

Nope, in the beginning of act 3 ser Karras tells you Meredith has sent for annulment and is waiting for response, she's been wanting to annul the circle for some time now. Also David Gaider said that although Kirkwall had more blood mages there were still many more normal mages in the circle. There was no reason to fight normal mages therefore he said Hawke simply stumbled upon blood mages much more often because they fled the circle while other mages were still there.

 

So what I said about Meredith still stands. Also if you think its justified to kill all mages for actions of Anders and some blood mages then I argue all Templars in kirkwall must die because of Meredith and her lackeys.

[Elite Midget]

By Act 3, after having the idol for years, but there was no inclination that she wanted to annul them in the Prologue, Act 1, or Act 2. Meredith even turned down the Tranquil Solution, even when she already had the idol, as it was too inhumane. Not to mention that Bethany, in the Circle, shows that not all Mages hate the Circle and Templars, when they weren't being bullied by Meredith, typically let them be.

 

For the good of the people of Kirkwall it was better to side with the Templars than the Mages in the end, that's a fact.

 

Side with the Templars and you can convince the Templars to defy Meredith multiple time to save lives. You also show that Mages can be trusted after all and Hawke has the opportunity to fix Kirkwall as a very popular Viscount.

 

Side with the Mages and you only confirm Templar fears and you leave Kirkwall in ruins and disunity. Many more will die.

[Lulupab]

By Act 3, after having the idol for years, but there was no inclination that she wanted to annul them in the Prologue, Act 1, or Act 2. Meredith even turned down the Tranquil Solution, even when she already had the idol, as it was too inhumane. Not to mention that Bethany, in the Circle, shows that not all Mages hate the Circle and Templars, when they weren't being bullied by Meredith, typically let them be.
 
For the good of the people of Kirkwall it was better to side with the Templars than the Mages in the end, that's a fact.
 
Side with the Templars and you can convince the Templars to defy Meredith multiple time to save lives. You also show that Mages can be trusted after all and Hawke has the opportunity to fix Kirkwall as a very popular Viscount.
 
Side with the Mages and you only confirm Templar fears and you leave Kirkwall in ruins and disunity. Many more will die.

You don't kill Templars, they back down and led by Cullen they secure the city, its confirmed and canon. Mages simply escape and you help them to do so.

Meredith does not curve the idol into the sword until act 3 which causes her to go mad, Bartrand does not sell the idol immediately, he probably sells it to her somewhere in the end of act 2. He himself says he kept it for a while.

Funny you name Bethany, a grey warden Bethany will be absolutely furious with you of you side with Templars. She hates the very existence of Templars. She has been free so she formed an opinion without influence of circle.

[Elite Midget]

You do kill Templars in the streets and the Templars that assault the inside of Circle as massacred if you side with the Mages. Not to mention that you have no option to spare Templars or to reason with them if you side with Mages while you CAN reason with the Templars if you side with them and spare Mage lives.

 

The City is broken up and lacking Unity if the Templars retake power instead of Hawke being popularly elected by the People as the People are now confused and troubled over their Champion siding against the Templars. That cannot be disputed.

 

Meredith HAD the Idol before Act 2. It's pointed out that Meredith has increasingly going mad, yet even in her growong madness she still didn't approve the Tranquility Solution, and the madness rumors don't take hold til AFTER Act 1 and the Idol is hers. However, even with the idol making her more and more paranoid it took years to break her mind into complete madness while it took seconds to turn Bartrend and he had pawned it off before Act 2.

 

That's not true, Grey Warden Bethany is simply surprised, and rightfully hates the Annulment and not the Templars themselves, but she agrees with your decision anyway and doesn't fight against you. If she was "furious" like you are trying to sell than she would have went over to aid the Mages instead of staying with Hawke.

[Lulupab]

You do kill Templars in the streets and the Templars that assault the inside of Circle as massacred if you side with the Mages. Not to mention that you have no option to spare Templars or to reason with them if you side with Mages while you CAN reason with the Templars if you side with them and spare Mage lives.

 

The City is broken up and lacking Unity if the Templars retake power instead of Hawke being popularly elected by the People as the People are now confused and troubled over their Champion siding against the Templars. That cannot be disputed.

 

Meredith HAD the Idol before Act 2. It's pointed out that Meredith has increasingly gone mad and the madness rumors don't take hold til AFTER Act 1 and the Idol is hers. However, even with the idol making her more and more paranoid it took years to break her mind into complete madness while it took seconds to turn Bartrend and he had pawned it off before Act 2.

 

That's not true, Grey Warden Bethany is simply surprised, and rightfully hates the Annulment not the Templars themselves, but she agrees with your decision anyway and doesn't fight against you. If she was "furious" like you are trying to sell than she would have went over to aid the Mages instead of staying with Hawke.

 

You only kill Templars who are killing mages.

 

Aveline's guards ensure the safety of citizens.

 

So what are you implying? She didn't get mad overnight, First thing she did in act 3 was trying to start an annulment, that says enough. More importantly many templars blindly followed her until Cullen rallied them. That's the case with Templars anyway, many will do anything ordered as long as their drug is at hand and they are paid.

 

Your sibling does not turn on you but both Grey warden Carver and Bethany oppose siding with Templars, Bethany more than Carver. They do join you in the end because your are their sibling, not because they agree with you. Bethany implies you are a disgrace to your father.

[Elite Midget]

Those Templars in the streets were defending the people from Abominations. Did they have to die for protecting the people? No, they didn't. Many of the Templars weren't there when Meredith initially gave the order. All they knew was that the Chantry exploded and there was now Abominations running around summoning demons to raze the city and kill innocents which is exactly what the Abominations did. The Templars sure as heck weren't killing bystanders or using magic to torch the city, that's for sure.

 

Aveline's Guard isn't enough on its own, Aveline even tells you that she cannot spare a single Guard to help, whichever path you chose, as the Guards are struggling to try and maintain order and to stop the Abominations running amok. We also know that Aveline and the Guard choose the Templars over the Mages if Aveline doesn't like you or is indifferent as they believe in Order and protecting the People.

 

She went mad over a long period of time, that shows that Meredith had great willpower and it took MANY actions to push her over the edge. Actions that Orsino KNEW about yet he purposely covered up which Meredith KNEW that he was doing that hence why she couldn't trust anyone in the Circle as they were validating her worst fears due to the constant escaping Blood Mages and Orsino's actions.

 

That's completely false, MANY Templars question Meredith's sanity and by the start of Act 3 those like Cullen and Thrask were clearly against Meredith stealing power in Kirkwall and were truly considering the insanity rumors. Thrask also proves your statement to be entirely wrong as he managed to get many Templars to go against the Order to help KNOWN Blood Mages and they were repaid by said Blood Mages with their lives, with the leader killing Thrask herself, if they didn't obey and attack Hawke.

 

No Bethany doesn't, you must have picked the rude option as Bethany NEVER said that to my Witty Hawke who tried to be calm and explain the situation which Bethany ultimately agreed with hence why she didn't go to the Circle.

[Lulupab]

You are making the logical mistake of thinking things go the same way in both options. if you choose the mage side there are crazed templars killing bystander mages and similar stuff... (lietrally the NPC name is crazed templar in once instance) I simply look at the ending as its not explained in DA2 itself but in later lores. The only difference between siding with mages and Templars is the amount mages who survive the annulment which is obviously more if you side with mages. Everything else remains the same.

 

You bet I chose mages.

 

All the Templars who opposed Meredith were shut down until Cullen rose up again.

 

In the end excuse me if I don't condone genocide and ethnic cleansing done to people who had nothing to with what happened to the Chantry. 

[Elite Midget]

No, it literally happens the same way. Most Templars weren't there when Meredith gave the order. They simply did their duty the moment they saw Abominations razing the city which they do even if you side with the Mages. And no, there aren't crazed Templars killing random bystanders in the streets, they're defending the city from Abominations and all the Mages you encounter in the streets are Abominations.

 

When the Templars, if you side with them, encounter Mages who don't seem to be Abominations they hesitate even when Meredith orders them to kill the surrendering Mages and they look to Hawke for guidance as they trust and respect Hawke so much that they would go against the Annulment and Meredith to spare innocent lives if Hawke told them to.

 

That's not true, hence why many are hesitant to kill surrendering Mages. Not to mention that Meredith didn't cause a big blow against Templars that didn't fall in line. Blood Mages did when they murdered Thrask and sent many of his followers to their deaths by forcing them to fight and die against Hawke. Templars can't be blamed for being wary when their mercy and kindness has repeatedly been repaid with cold-blooded murder.

 

You can't say more survive if you go against the Annulment over Hawke working with the Templars and convincing them to spare lives as from what we all saw the Circle doesn't exactly have a backdoor or a secret way to escape considering that the Templars/Chantry made the Circle Tower in the first place and that the Templars VASTLY outnumber the Mages.

 

You imply all Templars want to kill all Mages. That clearly isn't the case and I've provided multiple examples that prove your stance to be highly misinformed. 

[Lulupab]

Exactly, you kill abominations, blood mages and crazed templars in both ways, but you don't kill mages who had nothing to with what Anders did and I refuse to make them pay for something they didn't do and Meredith's insanity. No not all Templars want to kill all mages, but mages are getting annulled completely unjustly therefore I stand with the party who is being ethnic cleansed instead of the party doing it. The city is made safe regardless of the side you chose, the only difference is too few mages survive in Templar ending.

 

Also here is you crazed Templars, worshiping demons, making the city safe my arse:

 

[Elite Midget]

Those Templars that are in the Circle that you fight are being controlled by the Abominations. They didn't choose to be insane or to work with demons, they were made that way by the Blood Mages within the Circle. More than likely they were also the sympathetic Templars, that agreed with Thrask, that wanted to help and their kindness was repaid with possession by the Blood Mage Abominations.

 

Furthermore, you can influence the Templars to spare Mages if you side with the Templars. They listen to you even if your Hawke is a Mage.

[KaiserShep]

 

Eh, Meredith could have called an Annulment much earlier if that was always her intention. After all, Meredith still considers Mages to be children to watch over hence why, even in her insanity, she didn't try and annul them until after Anders destroyed the Chantry. She was also right that the people WOULD demand blood and that's exactly what happened. The only way to curb the chaos was to step up and Mages were the easy scapegoat as Anders was a Mage and Blood Mages have been terrorizing the City for years. Not to mention that much evidence pointed, rightly, that a lot of Blood Mages came from the Circle itself.

 

Actually, Meredith was seeking authorization to call for the Right of Annulment much sooner than Anders' little endgame, as indicated by Ser Kerras if he survives the encounter with Hawke at the coastal approach. It was only until The Last Straw that she decided to take it upon herself to invoke the Right without it.

As for the idea that the people would demand blood, this is something I deny entirely as proper justification for anything. The people can demand blood for just about any silly thing imaginable; that doesn't necessarily mean that it's something that should be respected and followed through by the authorities. It could be something like wanting to kill all mages in the city for the crime of one, or something a bit more down to earth like wanting to wipe out or subjugate a certain race or religious order for the simple fact that they disapprove of their existence. Either way, I won't honor it, regardless of the risks. If that means casualties, then so be it. 

 

 

You can spare surrendering Mages if you side with the Templars as the Templars deeply respect Hawke thus they differ to Hawke over Meredith. It's why Meredith doesn't push the issue if you try and spare Bethany as well because Meredith knows that Hawke is very popular and that not all the Templars under her want to kill all the Circle Mages even when that is their orders/duty. They simply wanted to restore Order to the city and were grieving over the loss of the Grand Cleric.

 

The fact that certain mages can be spared never factors into my decision, because it requires metagaming for it to do so. The option doesn't exist until after the fact, so the option simply does not exist at all. When the execution of every mage is called for, I must assume that there are no exceptions, regardless of any objection on Hawke's part. With that and the fact that I believe that the Circle was not complicit in Anders' crime, I have no choice but to oppose the order. Aside from their grief over the loss of the Grand Cleric and any Templars in the Chantry, restoring order to the city is not my primary concern, especially if that means leaving the city under the rule of the Templars, regardless of the chances of success.

 

 

It's a reality of the situation that Hawke siding with the Templars ends up with a better Kirkwall as Hawke, due to their popularity/influence, is able to calm the populace, be put in a position of real power to enact changes, and can convince the people and the Templars that not all Mages are evil by sparing Mages/Bethany or being a Mage them-self as the people want Hawke to lead, if Hawke sides with the Templars, even if Hawke is a Mage.

 

 

I don't really know what a "better" Kirkwall looks like, because I don't really get a good look at the city in the aftermath, and it kind of doesn't matter anyway, because the Circle system is already collapsed and the two factions are already going at it. That one filthy little city with a rotten power structure might make it out with a bit more polish is not terribly meaningful to me, but just the same, it's still a matter of what I can reasonably expect when making that first decision, and when choosing between Templars and mages in The Last Straw, whether or not order is restored to Kirkwall more quickly or a new leader is firmly established in a shorter amount of time are not my priorities.

[-TC1989-]

Those Templars that are in the Circle that you fight are being controlled by the Abominations. They didn't choose to be insane or to work with demons, they were made that way by the Blood Mages within the Circle. More than likely they were also the sympathetic Templars, that agreed with Thrask, that wanted to help and their kindness was repaid with possession by the Blood Mage Abominations.

 

Furthermore, you can influence the Templars to spare Mages if you side with the Templars. They listen to you even if your Hawke is a Mage.

 

That's exactly one of the things that stop me from helping the mages. The more I read, and come across this crap in game... the more I just say "screw the mages, man". I'm all for helping the mages with a good heart.... but that whole equality well is starting to run dry with me.