321 réponses à ce sujet

[raging_monkey]

So you immediately brush away a perfectly valid example of what you asked for. You are either trolling or just arguing for the sake of arguing at this point.

im willing to have a disscussion long as its civil hehe

[Willowhugger]

There is no perfect solution, just better ones that are more likely to last longer.  There has yet to be any human society or organization that has stood the test of time.  Asking for a perfect solution is silly.  There is no such thing as a guarantee.

 

The thing is, I'm pretty sure that I didn't need the Quarian-Geth solution to be quite so "happy" as it was in Mass Effect 3. I would have been happy with something much easier than "Geth and Quarian are flowers and bunnies forever." I would have been quite satisfied with, "The two sides have agreed not to exterminate one another." Have the Geth allow the Quarrians to settle on side of the planet ala Killzone 3 and there be high tensions between both with the occasional outbreak of war.

I would have considered that a BIG achievement.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

There is no perfect solution, just better ones that are more likely to last longer.  There has yet to be any human society or organization that has stood the test of time.  Asking for a perfect solution is silly.  There is no such thing as a guarantee.

Um, there are plenty of organizations that have stood the test of time. Give me a time-frame of what you are thinking of and I bet I can find at least one. 

[Puppy Love]

So you immediately brush away a perfectly valid example of what you asked for. You are either trolling or just arguing for the sake of arguing at this point. 

I did not brush it away, I said why it was not comparable.  Is how discussion works.  One sides brings up a point, and if you disagree you say why.  I disagree that your example applied to this scenario and said why.  I didn't just brush it off.  It took two hundred years of fighting it out, and changes throughout the world around them, for them to finally move on.  By the time the peace came the fight had been taking out of them, and both had been at war so long they were tired and the extremism had been spent.  What extremists still existed at this point were so minor, and both sides were so exhausted, it just wasn't enough to keep it going.

 

Now when all of this started, do you think they could have just gotten over it and made peace?  It took them 200 years of war and death to get there.

[Willowhugger]

I did not brush it away, I said why it was not comparable.  Is how discussion works.  One sides brings up a point, and if you disagree you say why.  I disagree that your example applied to this scenario and said why.  I didn't just brush it off.  It took two hundred years of fighting it out, and changes throughout the world around them, for them to finally move on.  By the time the peace came the fight had been taking out of them, and both had been at war so long they were tired and the extremism had been spent.  What extremists still existed at this point were so minor, and both sides were so exhausted, it just wasn't enough to keep it going.

 

Now when all of this started, do you think they could have just gotten over it and made peace?  It took them 200 years of war and death to get there.

 

I would find it interesting if there's three options. What would you guys choose if it went like this.

 

1. Mage Victory Epilogue=Fanfare, one side devastated
2. Templar Victory Epilogue=Fanfare, one side devastated
3. Truce=Neither side happy, frequent outbreaks of violence and conflict.

[Master Warder Z_]

ala Killzone 3

 

[HaHa365]

As long as there are hard liners on each side there will never truly be a peace between them.

Edit: auto correct

[Willowhugger]

As long as there are hard liners on each side there will never truly be a leave between them.

 

Eh, hardliners can agitate but the moderates can always reign them in too.

Peace will never be eternal.

But that doesn't mean it's not worth pursuing.

AS LONG AS ITS THROUGH POWER!

PEACE THROUGH POWER
PEACE THROUGH POWER

KANE LIVES!

[raging_monkey]

I did not brush it away, I said why it was not comparable.  Is how discussion works.  One sides brings up a point, and if you disagree you say why.  I disagree that your example applied to this scenario and said why.  I didn't just brush it off.  It took two hundred years of fighting it out, and changes throughout the world around them, for them to finally move on.  By the time the peace came the fight had been taking out of them, and both had been at war so long they were tired and the extremism had been spent.  What extremists still existed at this point were so minor, and both sides were so exhausted, it just wasn't enough to keep it going. Now when all of this started, do you think they could have just gotten over it and made peace?  It took them 200 years of war and death to get there.

what we pro-magi forget and i am extremly guilty of is practicality of things i make ideal suggestions based on emotion but that ive calmed down what about the civi's who take no sides and are pillaged by botj factions. As wynn said: "we are capable of great destruction"

[Puppy Love]

Um, there are plenty of organizations that have stood the test of time. Give me a time-frame of what you are thinking of and I bet I can find at least one. 

So you're telling me there are long lasting organizations that if compared to their original incarnation would be recognizable in more than lip service and hasn't been forced to change and compromise to continue to exist?  The issue is asking for a solution that will work as is, this can't be done, because change and evolution is necessary.

 

Let's look at the Abrahamic religions for example.  Is Judaism still here?  Yes, but it's also now Christianity which is in a million parts, and Islam, which is also split into a million different versions.  If you looked at the Jews of today and compared them to Jews 1000's of years ago I bet you'd find they are very different as well.  No organization exists without major changes and corruption from the original organization.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

I did not brush it away, I said why it was not comparable.  Is how discussion works.  One sides brings up a point, and if you disagree you say why.  I disagree that your example applied to this scenario and said why.  I didn't just brush it off.  It took two hundred years of fighting it out, and changes throughout the world around them, for them to finally move on.  By the time the peace came the fight had been taking out of them, and both had been at war so long they were tired and the extremism had been spent.  What extremists still existed at this point were so minor, and both sides were so exhausted, it just wasn't enough to keep it going.

 

Now when all of this started, do you think they could have just gotten over it and made peace?  It took them 200 years of war and death to get there.

First of all, anything in the universe is comparable to anything else in the universe. That's the definition of compare: estimate, measure, or note the similarity or dissimilarity between 

 

And second, it takes a lot longer for two empires to cease to a halt(though your centuries of fighting had plenty of ceasefires and even an occasional cooperation in it but I'll ignore that for ease of argument) than two relatively small factions. For the sake of argument, let's say that the Mages and Templars have about 10,000 people each whereas Britain and France have about 10,000,000 people each. That's 0.001% the size. So if operating on a linear graph, it would take the Mage-Templar War 73 days to reach the equivalent of Britain-France's conflicts. And this is not counting the fact that unlike Britain and France, the Mages and Templars have nowhere near the ability to sustain themselves. And why else would they go to the Peace Conference if not to try to end hostilities? 

 

 

So you're telling me there are long lasting organizations that if compared to their original incarnation would be recognizable in more than lip service and hasn't been forced to change and compromise to continue to exist?  The issue is asking for a solution that will work as is, this can't be done, because change and evolution is necessary.

 

Let's look at the Abrahamic religions for example.  Is Judaism still here?  Yes, but it's also now Christianity which is in a million parts, and Islam, which is also split into a million different versions.  If you looked at the Jews of today and compared them to Jews 1000's of years ago I bet you'd find they are very different as well.  No organization exists without major changes and corruption from the original organization.

Yes, that is exactly what I am telling you. 

 

For example: rural villages in Asia. They are exactly as they were thousands of years ago. Are you saying that those villages aren't societies? 

[Puppy Love]

 

First of all, anything in the universe is comparable to anything else in the universe. That's the definition of compare: estimate, measure, or note the similarity or dissimilarity between 

 

And second, it takes a lot longer for two empires to cease to a halt(though your centuries of fighting had plenty of ceasefires and even an occasional cooperation in it but I'll ignore that for ease of argument) than two relatively small factions. For the sake of argument, let's say that the Mages and Templars have about 10,000 people each whereas Britain and France have about 10,000,000 people each. That's 0.001% the size. So if operating on a linear graph, it would take the Mage-Templar War 73 days to reach the equivalent of Britain-France's conflicts. And this is not counting the fact that unlike Britain and France, the Mages and Templars have nowhere near the ability to sustain themselves. Why else would they go to the Peace Conference? 

 

 

Yes, that is exactly what I am telling you. 

 

For example: rural villages in Asia. They are exactly as they were thousands of years ago. Are you saying that those villages aren't societies? 

 

I want proof that they are exactly identical and have not changed at all throughout all the drastic changes in China's government.  I think that's a pretty bold claim.  Just because a place has the same name does not make it the same.  I know a restaurant that got new owners, but kept the same name.  Ended up a very different place even though the decor stayed the same.  So I say the villages exist, but if you compare the people there to the same people a thousand years ago you'll find the similarities are really not that big.

 

Unless you think having the same boarder and name is all that matters in defining a society.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

I want proof that they are exactly identical and have not changed at all throughout all the drastic changes in China's government.  I think that's a pretty bold claim.  Just because a place has the same name does not make it the same.  I know a restaurant that got new owners, but kept the same name.  Ended up a very different place even though the decor stayed the same.  So I say the villages exist, but if you compare the people there to the same people a thousand years ago you'll find the similarities are really not that big.

 

Unless you think having the same boarder and name is all that matters in defining a society.

No, I know there is more than boarders and names.

But considering they have the same religion, language, culture, families, etc I can safely say that those villages are indeed the same as they were thousands of years ago. And thus your argument of "There has yet to be any human society or organization that has stood the test of time.  " is an incorrect one. 

[Puppy Love]

No, I know there is more than boarders and names.

But considering they have the same religion, language, culture, families, etc I can safely say that those villages are indeed the same as they were thousands of years ago.

Then I'd love to see them, because that would be fascinating to see.

 

Really though, I'm getting kind of tired.  Been debating things for awhile now, and honestly I just became spent.  So I'm going to bow out.  Manic state is spent and entering my depressive state, so going to unstress myself.

[raging_monkey]

It was nice while it lasted

[Willowhugger]

I actually meant Killzone: Shadow Agent but I love that opening!

:-)

[Hanako Ikezawa]

Then I'd love to see them, because that would be fascinating to see.

 

Really though, I'm getting kind of tired.  Been debating things for awhile now, and honestly I just became spent.  So I'm going to bow out.  Manic state is spent and entering my depressive state, so going to unstress myself.

Well, I don't have the means to get you there so I can't help you with that.

[Willowhugger]

I was in a cranky mood earlier and I think applied something I saw you said about Celene in another thread, made some judgements and applied them to some things you said in the essay and assumed you were a right winger. Not that it should've mattered. 

 

Ah, gotcha.

 

My distaste for Celene is doubled over the fact she's ostensibly a reformer but has no conviction or integrity in this pursuit.

 

I find it more offensive, in some respects, than Duke Gaspard's warhawk conservatism.

 

My Mage characters then to be fanatical pro-social justice types despite the lunacy of such a pursuit in a Crapsack World like Thedas.

[dragonflight288]

Ah, gotcha.

 

My distaste for Celene is doubled over the fact she's ostensibly a reformer but has no conviction or integrity in this pursuit.

 

I find it more offensive, in some respects, than Duke Gaspard's warhawk conservatism.

 

My Mage characters then to be fanatical pro-social justice types despite the lunacy of such a pursuit in a Crapsack World like Thedas.

 

Me, I have problems with Celene because she's a politician first and foremost, and her word cannot be trusted. The problems I have with Gaspard is that he is more than willing to kill thousands, even tens of thousands and invade Ferelden and is a warmonger. 

 

What I like about Celene is that she seems to be for reformation when she isn't being criticized, and wants to invest in a University. What I like about Gaspard is that he's honest. You know where he stands at all times and his word is his bond. 

 

I still don't like either of them. 

[raging_monkey]

All characters are real soddy people when they hold power

[Lukas Trevelyan]

So you're telling me there are long lasting organizations that if compared to their original incarnation would be recognizable in more than lip service and hasn't been forced to change and compromise to continue to exist?  The issue is asking for a solution that will work as is, this can't be done, because change and evolution is necessary.

 

Let's look at the Abrahamic religions for example.  Is Judaism still here?  Yes, but it's also now Christianity which is in a million parts, and Islam, which is also split into a million different versions.  If you looked at the Jews of today and compared them to Jews 1000's of years ago I bet you'd find they are very different as well.  No organization exists without major changes and corruption from the original organization.

Sorry for the derailment but I do need to correct you there. In Islam there is only one faction, muslims who can also identify as Sunni, those who follow the teachings of the prophet. The only other .. faction? is Sheaa who basically deny the prophet and those are alienated by muslims. There has also never been editing in the Qur'an from which is taught to all muslims. 

That said inside Islam, due to minor disagreements in a few rulings there are 4 paths all of which are taught and accepted because again, minor differences. 


Carry on.

[Willowhugger]

That's really-really wrong, actually. Both sides revere Muhammed.

They split over the dude who came after Muhammed.

One of Muhammed's buddies versus his son-in-law.

[Lukas Trevelyan]

That's really-really wrong, actually. Both sides revere Muhammed.

They split over the dude who came after Muhammed.

One of Muhammed's buddies versus his son-in-law.

Dude. I am a muslim. I know what I'm talking about. 

Shaee dismiss Muhammed and claim that his son-in-law (Ali) should've been the prophet.

Also cease discussing this because it's greatly OT.

[raging_monkey]

So about them templars and mages who's right ? Lol