321 réponses à ce sujet

[dragonflight288]

Nice bit of reading for part three.

 

Bit inaccurate about Irving though. He wasn't the one behind Jowan's near Rite of Tranquility. He said Gregoire had evidence and eye-witness testimony that Jowan was practicing blood magic. 

[Willowhugger]

Well willy you sir have solidified my mage templar veiw as a isolationist moderate but open to templar views and have more fair understanding rather than one of idealism. I tip my fedora to you. Ihumbly off a hand to pro-templars rather than treating them as zealots

 

I remain, of course, a Mage Radical. I just view the conflict as a tragedy rather than a triumph.

[Icy Magebane]

Part 3 is now up!

Thanks everyone, especially those from the Templar and Mage thread!

Now that's more like it.  The third part was a pretty good read.  It presents a neutral account of the events with lots of evidence and examples (wiki links are always a nice touch).  The Templars, Seekers, Circles, and Chantry are all described plainly and without embellishment so that they can be judged independently by each reader... abuses by authority are neither hidden nor highlighted, and the Circle's benefits are clearly explained.  Bravo.

 

I'm going to have to disagree with your assessment of Irving's role in Broken Circle, however...  While he did have some blood magic books in his office that had previously been in the library, I don't think they were manuals from which the students could have learned anything.  If that had been the case, Greigor would likely have had them burned rather than simply asked Irving to remove them from sight.  That said, I have no idea where else they could have learned it... perhaps Uldred learned it from the pride demon he originally met in the Fade and then taught others?

[Willowhugger]

I'll make the appropriate corrections.

Thanks, you two!

[raging_monkey]

Really did enjoy it

[dragonflight288]

I'll make the appropriate corrections.

Thanks, you two!

 

You're welcome. I may be more sympathetic to the mages than the templars, but I do appreciate this essay and how you tried to be as unbiased as possible. 

[Willowhugger]

I think what I was surprised to find out is the essay changed my own opinion. I'm less inclined to dismiss Wynne's belief it might have been possible to reform the Circle from within when she first brought it up in Awakening. My Mage Warden and Mage Hawke frothed at the mouth at the Circle the entire way through.

 

However, given the history of the Mages and, ironically, the fact Mage Warden stopped the Blight then it's possible Mages might have been given the right to raise their children or visit their families given time. It was perhaps a lesson I should have paid attention to with Rogue Hawke that Bethany HATED being a Grey Warden and found the life of a Circle Mage (celibacy aside--good think Isabella's books exist) fulfilling.

 

It takes nearly being exterminated by an insane religious fanatic to convince her that mages need their freedom.

And, as we note with Cullen, he's as disturbed by the way this event turned out as anyone.

 

Now that's more like it.  The third part was a pretty good read.  It presents a neutral account of the events with lots of evidence and examples (wiki links are always a nice touch).  The Templars, Seekers, Circles, and Chantry are all described plainly and without embellishment so that they can be judged independently by each reader... abuses by authority are neither hidden nor highlighted, and the Circle's benefits are clearly explained.  Bravo.

 

I'm going to have to disagree with your assessment of Irving's role in Broken Circle, however...  While he did have some blood magic books in his office that had previously been in the library, I don't think they were manuals from which the students could have learned anything.  If that had been the case, Greigor would likely have had them burned rather than simply asked Irving to remove them from sight.  That said, I have no idea where else they could have learned it... perhaps Uldred learned it from the pride demon he originally met in the Fade and then taught others?

 

Thanks, glad you liked it.

 

Again, I was surprised at how many points that I made when looking at the issue fairly that the Circle wasn't the frothing band of religious fanatics I tended to view it as.

 

Re: Uldred and Blood Magic

 

The fact he's a First Enchanter would give him access to a lot of materials which might otherwise be verboten. Orsino, it should be noted, has a staff similar to the Blood Mage cult in Denerim my Warden eradicated (as did many of you I imagine) so it's possible there's a wholesale conspiracy of them stretching across Thedas too.

[dragonflight288]

I think what I was surprised to find out is the essay changed my own opinion. I'm less inclined to dismiss Wynne's belief it might have been possible to reform the Circle from within when she first brought it up in Awakening. My Mage Warden and Mage Hawke frothed at the mouth at the Circle the entire way through.

However, given the history of the Mages and, ironically, the fact Mage Warden stopped the Blight then it's possible Mages might have been given the right to raise their children or visit their families given time. It was perhaps a lesson I should have paid attention to with Rogue Hawke that Bethany HATED being a Grey Warden and found the life of a Circle Mage (celibacy aside--good think Isabella's books exist) fulfilling.

 

Well, I'm actually amused you managed to change your own opinion. 

 

But it is a well-written essay, and if you read it straight through from part one to part three, it is truly unbiased, or as unbiased as you could make it, with part one setting up the situation, which generally makes people sympathize with mages, part two showing the dangers, and part three showing how the Chantry actually does a lot of good for the mages, even if some of them don't recognize it as all they see is what they lost. 

 

Just replayed a bit of Ostagar, and the tranquil there says that the Tranquil doing enchantments, added into their running the shops across Thedas, are actually the ones who supply the Circle's their wealth since they don't get by on Charity.

 

But since the templars and the Chantry pretty much control the Tranquil, it is another way of saying that the Circle's get by on the Chantry's good graces. 

[Willowhugger]

Well, I'm actually amused you managed to change your own opinion. 

 

But it is a well-written essay, and if you read it straight through from part one to part three, it is truly unbiased, or as unbiased as you could make it, with part one setting up the situation, which generally makes people sympathize with mages, part two showing the dangers, and part three showing how the Chantry actually does a lot of good for the mages, even if some of them don't recognize it as all they see is what they lost. 

 

Just replayed a bit of Ostagar, and the tranquil there says that the Tranquil doing enchantments, added into their running the shops across Thedas, are actually the ones who supply the Circle's their wealth since they don't get by on Charity.

 

But since the templars and the Chantry pretty much control the Tranquil, it is another way of saying that the Circle's get by on the Chantry's good graces. 

Thank you, glad you liked it. I was going to do it all in one-essay but I realized no one would want to read it that way. I hope people will enjoy the whole thing, though.

 

Speaking of which, the Tranquil bit has rather nasty implications doesn't it?

The Circles could continue doing the same financial dealings as before to finance themselves.

But for that....they need Tranquil.

[Master Warder Z_]

I was under the impression that displeasure was the result of emotion, and that frowning was a non-verbal indication of a person's mental state.  Without emotions, there would no change in his mental state... making a sale isn't the same as not making a sale, but there is a wall between the realization of this and the reaction to it. 

 

While a Tranquil can probably understand that one outcome is more favorable than another (due to the guidance of an outside party beforehand), the lack of an emotional tie to positive or negative outcomes should produce a neutral, fully apathetic response regardless.  Then again, Owain says that he would "prefer not to die," so I suppose they attach some significance to positives versus negatives... but to what extent, I can't say.  The idea that a Tranquil's time can be wasted isn't even something I fully believe in, because that would indicate that they'd rather be doing something else with that time... if you don't enjoy spending time doing something, such as eating, how can you "prefer" eating to not eating?  It sounds more like they have a basic self preservation instinct and follow whatever commands the Templars and Mages give them... but that's the end of it.

 

But as fascinating as all of this is, it's off topic, so I'll just have to leave it at that I guess...

 

You were under the wrong impression then.

 

Displeasure isn't an emotional state so much as it a sensation that applied via emotion, there is in it self nothing to it more then just that sensation, people apply pique and rancor to it, but that doesn't make anything more then it is.

 

Pain is just nerve endings firing, Displeasure is just cortex's in the brain aligning.

 

Now if we were discussing something; Emotional rather then mental i'd agree given the the tranquility removes emotion, it however does nothing to interfere with the forming of preferences, or favoring specific things.

 

In this case productivity rather then non productivity, Its one of the reasons i maintain that Tranquil still have free will.

 

They can still form preferences.

[raging_monkey]

Til i read your essays i was a moderate that took no side now i have a clear head without trying to form a opininion from the magi v templar threads thats mostly shouting.
Mages cant live in peace with the non-magi and magi should be separate from them but we magi should extend help and love to both templars and nonmages and maybe after this maddeness we can co-exist til then we should give each other space rather trying to rip eachothers throats out. So pro-templar i extend a hand of peace. Do you accept?

[Willowhugger]

In this case productivity rather then non productivity, Its one of the reasons i maintain that Tranquil still have free will.

 

They can still form preferences.

 

I've had the theory that Tranquil aren't 100% emotionless either.

Just...very...very muted.

 

Like Tranquility removes 80% of them.

 

I was always surprised when the Tranquil mention they don't like the demons and monsters around them, for example, or express some level of initiative. Pharamond indicates that Tranquil want nothing but aren't without an intellect or drive.

[raging_monkey]

I always thought of tranquil mindset "why change if it works"

[Maria Caliban]

How is this satire?

[Willowhugger]

How is this satire?

 

I view it in the context of applicability, though I may be stretching things.

 

Frankly, I wish I could have spoken more about the freedom versus security element but there's a LOT to cover on this subject.

I also think readers can make up their own minds about applicability to RL.

[Maria Caliban]

Satire mocks or ridicules something, typically a group or ideology. It's a form of criticism that typically uses humor.

"Applicability" has nothing to do with it.

This is satire:



During the time, there was controversy over whether the government should fund artists whose work was 'obscene.' It's political satire because it's suggesting the people restricting the arts project their own bizarre sensibility on rather neutral pieces of art. Also the tendency of right-leaning moral advocates in politics to indulge in all sorts of vices.

[Willowhugger]

Point taken.

[raging_monkey]

Perhaps metaphor or allegory would be appropriate?

[Willowhugger]

Perhaps metaphor or allegory would be appropriate?

 

Yeah, well, the link is set so I'll just mention it's incorrectly defined in the essay.

:-)

[raging_monkey]

Still a good read

[Willowhugger]

Anything you guys think I missed or should have come up?

I was annoyed I couldn't figure a way to address Templar Lyrium addiction or Tevinter.

[raging_monkey]

Aside from those not really anyother topic i can add would paint the chantry in a horrible light and that only hurts you

[HTTP 404]

You are taking feedback (rather harsh imo) fairly well.  I commend you for that.  I'll check out your two other parts in a few days

[Willowhugger]

You are taking feedback (rather harsh imo) fairly well.  I commend you for that.  I'll check out your two other parts in a few days

 

I look forward to hearing your thoughts!

[raging_monkey]

Hey willo you mentioned you changed your own view how so?