321 réponses à ce sujet

[Ieldra]

A few corrections in part 2:
That blood magic was taught to the Tevinter magisters by Dumat is a belief, not a fact. A competing belief says it's the oldest form of magic. The ultimate source of its knowledge is unknown.

Also, blood magic is defined by the practice of powering spells with blood (or "life force"). All spells except healing can be powered like that, which means that it has as much use as magic in general and its uses are not limited beyond inflicting harm. One important unmentioned benefit is that it makes a mage who is prepared to use his own blood for his spells independent from external raw materials like lyrium, which I'm sure is a factor in banning it.

To name what Jowan did "human sacrifice" is misleading. The term is not usually associated with injuring yourself.

The most insidious danger of blood magic to society goes unmentioned: the fact that blood mages can mind-control rulers and other influential figures with no one else being aware of it.

The connection between blood magic and the blights is accidental. The magisters used blood sacrifice and most of the Imperium's stockpiled lyrium to raise the necessary power to physically enter the Fade, but as far as we know, nothing about the actual effect was especially "blood-magical" in the way that magical mind-control is, and even if it was, as opposed to mind control, there is no way using this magical effect can be construed as immoral. Also, it is morally dishonest to blame the magisters for the Blights as if that had been their intention. They were responsible, but it was an accident, not an atrocity. We can conclude this because none of the known actors could reasonably be interested in this outcome.

The conclusion that blood magic can destroy the world is misleading. Even a nail can destroy the world if it's used to trigger nuclear explosions. The magisters triggered a large-scale disaster, but blood magic was only accidentally connected.

Your statements about the possible chances of mages in the war are presented as facts when they are not. I don't necessarily disagree with the estimation, but nonetheless: it's not a fact.

[Elfquisitor]

Neat breakdown of the complexities of this entire mage-templar mess.

 

If I have to be honest, I'd be willing to be pro-templar if the Chantry wasn't so screwed up. Most of the things wrong with the templars can be traced back to Chantry policy and teachings. (There are some individuals who try to help matters, but overall the organization's flaws only allows so much)

 

Meanwhile, most mages aren't abominations and blood mages, but the Chantry's oppression leads more mages to turn to blood magic and demons because they don't feel like they have any other option.

You do realise that the templars are no longer controlled by the Chantry, right ?

[Elista]

To make it more clear: a templar is like a person who was taught how to use a sword in a fight. A mage is a person who was born with guns instead of hands and infinite ammo. The first one might abuse their power but take away the sword and they're just strong humans. The second one always has this power unless you cut their arms off

You makes me think to Edward Scissorhands^^

I really enjoyed this essay. It's very well done and helps me to moderate my views as a Pro-mages. The idea of freedom vs security is very appropriate. I hope we can lead mages and templars to a new arrangement good for everyone in DAI. Risk is part of life and progress, and freedom is a condition for happiness. An acceptable level of security can certainly be reached without stripping mages from their basical rights to freedom and happiness. Mages and templars should be allies, not ennemies.

[Basement Cat]

Very interesting series! On top of the mage-templar issues, it made me realize that fear is probably not the only factor behind the general population's hostility towards mages. There's probably resentment and jealousy too. The average person hears from the Chantry how mages are dangerous and can cause serious harm, but they are taken to live in a place of comfort where they don't have to do any work (from the average joe's perspective) while the poor peasants, human or elf, are left to worry about food, disease, taxes and the whims of their lords (especially elves for the latter).

 

For the average person, it can look a lot like mages are being rewarded for being what they are.

[Willowhugger]

Very interesting series! On top of the mage-templar issues, it made me realize that fear is probably not the only factor behind the general population's hostility towards mages. There's probably resentment and jealousy too. The average person hears from the Chantry how mages are dangerous and can cause serious harm, but they are taken to live in a place of comfort where they don't have to do any work (from the average joe's perspective) while the poor peasants, human or elf, are left to worry about food, disease, taxes and the whims of their lords (especially elves for the latter).

 

For the average person, it can look a lot like mages are being rewarded for being what they are.

 

I wonder how much ignorance plays a role in what exactly goes on in the Circles. They are raised to believe magic is a curse, is dangerous, and there's all manner of evil maleficar running around (with Templars blurring the lines between apostates and them according to lore) only to occasionally see mages walking around dressed as nobility. Part of what triggers the lynch mob in Orlais isn't just the fact they're mages (or the recent attack on the Divine) but Rhys, Adrian, and Wynne are throwing around more money than they've seen in their entire lives like it's nothing.

Because, to these mages, it is.

[Willowhugger]

You makes me think to Edward Scissorhands^^

I really enjoyed this essay. It's very well done and helps me to moderate my views as a Pro-mages. The idea of freedom vs security is very appropriate. I hope we can lead mages and templars to a new arrangement good for everyone in DAI. Risk is part of life and progress, and freedom is a condition for happiness. An acceptable level of security can certainly be reached without stripping mages from their basical rights to freedom and happiness. Mages and templars should be allies, not ennemies.

 

There's just enough decent Templars like Ser Keran, Pre-Broken Circle Cullen, and so on to make me think they're (overall) a pretty decent group of people with Kirkwall being the exception rather than the rule. Also, as the original Mageneto, it behooves me to say that Templars being friendly to mages and befriending them can have disastrous consequences too.

Ser Thrask was all on Team Mage, so he ignored the fact Grace and the other Apostates the scumbag Ser Karras was trying to bring back deserved to die (barring guy who didn't do Blood Magic).

 

Lambert is an also exercise in overreaction as he was a member of the corrupt Black Divine Templars. Templars who are just the glorified bodyguards of the Tevinter mages and turn a blind eye to the use of Blood Magic to oppress the populace. Of course, Tevinter's problems run much-much deeper than the use of Blood Magic but that's a whole other ball of wax.

 

Both Pro-Mage Warden and Pro-Mage Hawke still kill an enormous amount of their fellow mages, after all, just because they're following the path of "don't do terrorism or become a mindless monster."

[Willowhugger]

Am doing some general clean-up on the essay. Not quite to professional quality but better than rambling forum post I hope.

[raging_monkey]

It is better

[Willowhugger]

One interesting thing that occurs to me is we actually do get the impression the Chantry tries to show mages are people and is under the impression they deserve consideration as well as protection. Sister Petrice, one of the scummiest priestesses in the Chantry, has a curious subtext to her plot with Ketojan. She's carting around Ketojan to show the inhumanity and barbarity of the Qunari.

 

To a mage.

 

Which means she expects the public to, on some level, think of a Quanri mage as a person.

[raging_monkey]

Its just bull. She crafty i give her this but bull

[Willowhugger]

Its just bull. She crafty i give her this but bull

 

Now, now, it's possible for her to have one redeeming quality.

Maybe even two!

[raging_monkey]

If so im a nug's uncle*eats fresh nug*

[Willowhugger]

If so im a nug's uncle*eats fresh nug*

I admit, I'm now seeing Sister Petrice as a Pro-Mage Chantry woman.

Sister Petrice: I support the Mages having their freedom with the Chantry's backing. The Templars should only go after the criminals amongst them. Now, all three of us should team up to kill our REAL ENEMY--the Qunari and their converts!

 

Anders: I don't know how I feel about this.

Double points if Tallis is a Companion in this version.

 

:-)

[Ieldra]

Ser Thrask was all on Team Mage, so he ignored the fact Grace and the other Apostates the scumbag Ser Karras was trying to bring back deserved to die (barring guy who didn't do Blood Magic).

Actually, we do not know Grace "deserved to die" at that point. Having forbidden knowledge is not a crime, and as far as we know, she hadn't done anything objectionable at that time.

[raging_monkey]

I admit, I'm now seeing Sister Petrice as a Pro-Mage Chantry woman.Sister Petrice: I support the Mages having their freedom with the Chantry's backing. The Templars should only go after the criminals amongst them. Now, all three of us should team up to kill our REAL ENEMY--the Qunari and their converts! Anders: I don't know how I feel about this.Double points if Tallis is a Companion in this version. :-)

i*drops nugget* well sod wheres my nephew.
But really with peatrice's xenophobia its hard for me to believe she'd care for magi without some motive. People only help magi when they can profit or have a personal stake

[HaHa365]

A few corrections in part 2:
That blood magic was taught to the Tevinter magisters by Dumat is a belief, not a fact. A competing belief says it's the oldest form of magic. The ultimate source of its knowledge is unknown.

Also, blood magic is defined by the practice of powering spells with blood (or "life force"). All spells except healing can be powered like that, which means that it has as much use as magic in general and its uses are not limited beyond inflicting harm. One important unmentioned benefit is that it makes a mage who is prepared to use his own blood for his spells independent from external raw materials like lyrium, which I'm sure is a factor in banning it.

To name what Jowan did "human sacrifice" is misleading. The term is not usually associated with injuring yourself.

The most insidious danger of blood magic to society goes unmentioned: the fact that blood mages can mind-control rulers and other influential figures with no one else being aware of it.

The connection between blood magic and the blights is accidental. The magisters used blood sacrifice and most of the Imperium's stockpiled lyrium to raise the necessary power to physically enter the Fade, but as far as we know, nothing about the actual effect was especially "blood-magical" in the way that magical mind-control is, and even if it was, as opposed to mind control, there is no way using this magical effect can be construed as immoral. Also, it is morally dishonest to blame the magisters for the Blights as if that had been their intention. They were responsible, but it was an accident, not an atrocity. We can conclude this because none of the known actors could reasonably be interested in this outcome.

The conclusion that blood magic can destroy the world is misleading. Even a nail can destroy the world if it's used to trigger nuclear explosions. The magisters triggered a large-scale disaster, but blood magic was only accidentally connected.

Your statements about the possible chances of mages in the war are presented as facts when they are not. I don't necessarily disagree with the estimation, but nonetheless: it's not a fact.

Well said, very well said.

[Ieldra]

I admit, I'm now seeing Sister Petrice as a Pro-Mage Chantry woman.

Sister Petrice: I support the Mages having their freedom with the Chantry's backing. The Templars should only go after the criminals amongst them. Now, all three of us should team up to kill our REAL ENEMY--the Qunari and their converts!
 
Anders: I don't know how I feel about this.

Double points if Tallis is a Companion in this version.
 
:-)

I agree that the qunari are the real enemy. If I detest Petrice, it's because for her it's all bound up in religious intolerance. Nonetheless, I would accept her allegiance in order to fight the qunari. Also, having Tallis around - yeah, bound and gagged so that she can't do anything about it.

[Willowhugger]

Actually, we do not know Grace "deserved to die" at that point. Having forbidden knowledge is not a crime, and as far as we know, she hadn't done anything objectionable at that time.

 

I don't object to most of your points since my Mage Hawke and Mage Warden were Blood Mages.

Also, I totally supported Merrill the Blood Mage.

"Your clan are ignorant fools suspicious of the TRUE knowledge!"

+10 Merrill Friendship.

[Willowhugger]

While I generally agree Ieldra, there's a couple of points.
 

Also, blood magic is defined by the practice of powering spells with blood (or "life force"). All spells except healing can be powered like that, which means that it has as much use as magic in general and its uses are not limited beyond inflicting harm. One important unmentioned benefit is that it makes a mage who is prepared to use his own blood for his spells independent from external raw materials like lyrium, which I'm sure is a factor in banning it.

 

Blood magic deals with the control of demons, mind-control, and the harvesting of human life-force for mystical power.

 

    To name what Jowan did "human sacrifice" is misleading. The term is not usually associated with injuring yourself.

 

I was actually referring to killing Isolde so I should probably clarify that.

 

    The most insidious danger of blood magic to society goes unmentioned: the fact that blood mages can mind-control rulers and other influential figures with no one else being aware of it.

 

Mind control gets mentioned as both a power of Blood Magic and something Avernus uses to help the rebellion of Sophia Dryden.

 

    Your statements about the possible chances of mages in the war are presented as facts when they are not. I don't necessarily disagree with the estimation, but nonetheless: it's not a fact.

 

I'll adjust this to more ambiguous language.

[Ieldra]

While I generally agree Ieldra, there's a couple of points.
Blood magic deals with the control of demons, mind-control, and the harvesting of human life-force for mystical power.

"Blood magic is a school of magic that uses the power inherent in blood to fuel spellcasting." (Dragon Age Wiki)
Those are not a contradiction. Blood magic is *defined* by the practice of powering spells with "life force", but there are also effects that can only be created that way, and those include demon-summoning and mind-control. Biased reporting tends to omit the unproblematic elements of blood magic, and that includes Bioware writers who have made some efforts to tweak their own lore in order to make blood magic appear more evil than it appeared in DAO. Fortunately, they can't make DAO go away. I dislike the idea of some magic which is inherently evil.
 

I was actually referring to killing Isolde so I should probably clarify that.

Isolde volunteered. It's still not human sacrifice.

[Willowhugger]

Human sacrifices can be voluntary if history is any indication. That's kind of nitpicking, though.

[raging_monkey]

Blood magic in and of itself a tool like all magic, is it dangrous than most oh yes. But inherently evil no it depends on the user. At best needs to be scrutinized and moderated at worst unregulated usage can lead to the users demise

[Willowhugger]

Blood magic in and of itself a tool like all magic, is it dangrous than most oh yes. But inherently evil no it depends on the user. At best needs to be scrutinized and moderated at worst unregulated usage can lead to the users demise

My view on blood magic is that folk like Hawke and the Warden can use it morally.

99% of everyone will will abuse it mercilessly.

[raging_monkey]

We are PCs rules apply differently. Warden healing blood mage as well as hawke. The devs tried to make a evil school but ended with a possible gun control metaphor. Whats to stop our PCs from going rogue after there respective games?
Purly curious inquery

[Willowhugger]

We are PCs rules apply differently. Warden healing blood mage as well as hawke. The devs tried to make a evil school but ended with a possible gun control metaphor. Whats to stop our PCs from going rogue after there respective games?
Purly curious inquery

As mentioned in the essay, I don't think Blood Magic is inherently evil. I think it's a tool like anything but it's a tool which has pretty limited utility despite the claims of folk like Merrill and Avernus.

 

As we see with Merriil, demons can never really be made to behave and even extremely potent magic users like Uldred can end up getting their souls eaten or turned into Pride Demons. Ditto, the Baroness. Mind-control is, for the most part, totally immoral and subject to incredible abuse. Finally, as we see with Isolde, the best way to get the BIG BUCKS from Blood Magic is to kill people for power. Hadriana does the same with slaves. You can get a small boost from NOT killing someone but it'll never be as much as straight up murdering someone.

 

In short, it's not the One Ring but I'm comfortable saying my Blood Mage Hawke and Warden realize it's just a STUPID school of magic to pursue if you're not a wannabe Palpatine.