321 réponses à ce sujet

[Icy Magebane]

I think its amusing that most Pro Mages seem to wish to do this.

 

Impractical as it is.

Yes well, many of the pro mage arguments are heavy on ideology and light on details, so what do you expect?

[raging_monkey]

Then what you suggest i am open to suggestions

[Icy Magebane]

Then what you suggest i am open to suggestions

I never suggested that the Circle become a school system for the average citizen, so it's not my responsibility to come up with ways for that to work.

[Master Warder Z_]

Yes well, many of the pro mage arguments are heavy on ideology and light on details, so what do you expect?

 

Not much to be honest.

[raging_monkey]

I never suggested that the Circle become a school system for the average citizen, so it's not my responsibility to come up with ways for that to work.

being general haha

[Puppy Love]

Thats... actually pretty fair and leanient Z *shocked monkey*

How is that fair or lenient?  Is ridiculous.  There's zero connection between the mage today and the mage of yesteryear.  If I say nuke a country, my neighbor's nephews great great grandchild being punished until the fall out is gone and the place becomes habitable again, makes zero sense what so ever.  There's no more connection to the mages of today to the mages that caused the blight than there is me to Hitler because we're both white and I have some German in my ancestry.

[raging_monkey]

I was refering to his general policies. But its true we do not know what will happen after the blights or if magi gain freedom

[Master Warder Z_]

There is me to Hitler because we're both white and I have some German in my ancestry.

 

So you related to Hitler?! 

 

I knew this day would come...

 

*Sighs sadly* This is such a stereotype...but My grand parents did it, i might as well...

 

...Ja wohl, mein Führer!

[raging_monkey]

So you related to Hitler?! 
 
I knew this day would come...
 
*Sighs sadly* This is such a stereotype...but My grand parents did it, i might as well...
 
...Ja wohl[/size], [/size]mein Führer![/size]

Z he made a bad example no need to stoop to their level

[Puppy Love]

So you related to Hitler?! 

 

I knew this day would come...

 

*Sighs sadly* This is such a stereotype...but My grand parents did it, i might as well...

 

...Ja wohl, mein Führer!

If I was related to Hitler, it's still ridiculous.  But irrelevant, not every mage has direct blood ancestry to the few mages responsible for the blight.  So a blood connection is not there.  Is more the my crime, my neighbor being punished for it scenario.   It's putting the Asian Americans into camps because the Japanese attacked Pearl Harbor.  It's the middle eastern cab driver being attacked for being a terrorist when he's just a middle eastern man doing a job.  It's taking one thing two people have in common, and using that similarity to persecute one person for the actions of the other.

 

It's like Bob shoots Karen, so we arrest Frank two states over because he also owns a gun.

[Master Warder Z_]

Z he made a bad example no need to stoop to their level

 

<.<

 

Yeah it was a joke.

[Puppy Love]

Z he made a bad example no need to stoop to their level

She, and it wasn't a bad example just because it included real world scenarios.  Our world history is the best lessons we have for what things are like in reality and their effects.

[Puppy Love]

For fun going the heritage responsible for your ancestors actions.  I'm German, English, Irish, Scottish, Native American, and who knows what else.  So I've by heritage possibly responsible for subjugated the Jews, blacks, gypsies, gays, ect in Germany.  I've fought with myself as English conquering the Irish, I've done a whole bunch of raiding.  I've put Native Americans in reservations, my people have been put in reservations, since I'm bi and transgender I'd be in the camps with everyone else in Germany camps, I'm responsible for putting blacks into slavery, I'm responsible for freeing the blacks from slavery...

 

It gets convoluted and silly.

[ShadowLordXII]

You do realise that the templars are no longer controlled by the Chantry, right ?

 

I was talking about the pre-war situation.

[raging_monkey]

If I was related to Hitler, it's still ridiculous.  But irrelevant, not every mage has direct blood ancestry to the few mages responsible for the blight.  So a blood connection is not there.  Is more the my crime, my neighbor being punished for it scenario.   It's putting the Asian Americans into camps because the Japanese attacked Pearl Harbor.  It's the middle eastern cab driver being attacked for being a terrorist when he's just a middle eastern man doing a job.  It's taking one thing two people have in common, and using that similarity to persecute one person for the actions of the other. It's like Bob shoots Karen, so we arrest Frank two states over because he also owns a gun.

i never said i agreed with Z just makes sense when my idealism takes over than logic. Now mages do have freedom, arguably more then most thedosians. Are the treated like criminals by association yes, but when magi are pushed into corners or just stupid or mad(depending on interptation) they often prove pro-templar right and leads to them cracking down even more. IMO mages and mundanes cant peacefully co-exist without one group being subjugated or stonewalled. At worst a abomination kills x people and magi will be blamed rightly or no. At best the mage is separated from the non-mages and lives a arguably confertable life depending on the mage. Point is mages will probably always be treat ed like monsters for the good of all rather than the oppresses

[Willowhugger]

On my end, blaming mages today for the Blights is ludicrous and insane. I also feel this is a sword which cuts both ways. The Chantry today can't be blamed for the Dales destruction or the previous Exalted Marches' excesses.

 

They can, however, be blamed for what they do and teach about elves today. Likewise, mages can and do deserve to be taken to task for what they do with their power. I don't believe mages will automatically create a New Tevinter if they're freed but they have the tools to create a New Tevinter if they want.

 

So guarding against that isn't a bad thing as long as it's not immoral.

 

High fences making for good neighbors and all that.

 

I take the Bryce Cousland tactic, even if it didn't work out with him and Nathaniel Howe. It's important to do your best to put an end to ancestral feuds and their repercussions. History is full of, "Now we're going to get the French back for what they did to us in my father's day!" and "now we're going to get England back for them getting us back"

 

And so on.

[Puppy Love]

i never said i agreed with Z just makes sense when my idealism takes over than logic. Now mages do have freedom, arguably more then most thedosians. Are the treated like criminals by association yes, but when magi are pushed into corners or just stupid or mad(depending on interptation) they often prove pro-templar right and leads to them cracking down even more. IMO mages and mundanes cant peacefully co-exist without one group being subjugated or stonewalled. At worst a abomination kills x people and magi will be blamed rightly or no. At best the mage is separated from the non-mages and lives a arguably confertable life depending on the mage. Point is mages will probably always be treat ed like monsters for the good of all rather than the oppresses

To be fair, give me a blade, push me against a wall and attempt to rape me, or kill me, or anything else horrifying, where I feel I have no other option but to fight my way out.  I'll use the blade.

 

The same with magic, blood or otherwise.

 

If the example given is "was backed into a corner" for most mage crimes, that's kind of a point in the mages favor if you ask me.

 

Self defense is not a crime.

 

Those who commit murder, sacrifice people, commit other crimes yes.

 

If one finds the need to use people defending themselves as examples, there's something really wrong with the picture.

[Master Warder Z_]

The Chantry today can't be blamed for the Dales destruction or the previous Exalted Marches' excesses

 

Those are positives, not negatives.

 

Slavers, Knife Ears and Qunari *nods*

 

Deserve what they got.

[Willowhugger]

Yes well, many of the pro mage arguments are heavy on ideology and light on details, so what do you expect?

 

I'd have more sympathy for the "we need a Renaissance and Industrial Age period from Medieval" except for the fact that there's been plenty of cultures which have moved directly from Medieval to Modern Democracies.

 

Sometimes it works great, other times it doesn't.

 

However, the idea there's a "proper course" of history doesn't really hold weight with me.

[raging_monkey]

She, and it wasn't a bad example just because it included real world scenarios.  Our world history is the best lessons we have for what things are like in reality and their effects.

apologies ma'am was trying to difuse the situation(poorly)

On my end, blaming mages today for the Blights is ludicrous and insane. I also feel this is a sword which cuts both ways. The Chantry today can't be blamed for the Dales destruction or the previous Exalted Marches' excesses. They can, however, be blamed for what they do and teach about elves today. Likewise, mages can and do deserve to be taken to task for what they do with their power. I don't believe mages will automatically create a New Tevinter if they're freed but they have the tools to create a New Tevinter if they want. So guarding against that isn't a bad thing as long as it's not immoral. High fences making for good neighbors and all that. I take the Bryce Cousland tactic, even if it didn't work out with him and Nathaniel Howe. It's important to do your best to put an end to ancestral feuds and their repercussions. History is full of, "Now we're going to get the French back for what they did to us in my father's day!" and "now we're going to get England back for them getting us back" And so on.

again isolation is becoming a better option. Away from non-magi since its punish til eternity or kill'em all

[Ieldra]

He was the best Lawful evil character Bioware ever did...and then they completely ruined him.
 
And i will never forgive them for it, never ever.

I tend to agree with this, but before I assume we're aligned (which would be surprising): what was, in your opinion, the thing that ruined him?

[raging_monkey]

To be fair, give me a blade, push me against a wall and attempt to rape me, or kill me, or anything else horrifying, where I feel I have no other option but to fight my way out.  I'll use the blade. The same with magic, blood or otherwise. If the example given is "was backed into a corner" for most mage crimes, that's kind of a point in the mages favor if you ask me. Self defense is not a crime. Those who commit murder, sacrifice people, commit other crimes yes. If one finds the need to use people defending themselves as examples, there's something really wrong with the picture.

i agree but i was speaking as the devils adovocate

[Icy Magebane]

I'd have more sympathy for the "we need a Renaissance and Industrial Age period from Medieval" except for the fact that there's been plenty of cultures which have moved directly from Medieval to Modern Democracies.

 

Sometimes it works great, other times it doesn't.

 

However, the idea there's a "proper course" of history doesn't really hold weight with me.

Isn't that generally the case when they are exposed to and then uplifted by "advanced" societies who made the transition  first?  Who is going to do that for the people of Thedas?  Not the Qunari, I hope...

[Willowhugger]

To be fair, give me a blade, push me against a wall and attempt to rape me, or kill me, or anything else horrifying, where I feel I have no other option but to fight my way out.  I'll use the blade.

 

The same with magic, blood or otherwise.

 

If the example given is "was backed into a corner" for most mage crimes, that's kind of a point in the mages favor if you ask me.

 

Self defense is not a crime.

 

Those who commit murder, sacrifice people, commit other crimes yes.

 

If one finds the need to use people defending themselves as examples, there's something really wrong with the picture.

 

While an easy defense to make, that's also one I disagree with as an Anti-Blood Magic user/Pro Mage Terrorist. Not the least because every time I used Blood Magic it seemed to make it WORSE for my party.

 

Blood Magic as a tool of desperation is a common defense from Blood Magicians but we see plenty of mages using it as an excuse to abuse other people. Hadriana and Denarius are both Blood Mages but neither of them have any claim to being the wronged party. So is the Slaver in the Denerim Alienage. Grace is a murderous scumbag who along with her fellow apostates use blood magic to lash out at people. Hawke may be as Pro-Mage as anyone but is nearly forced to kill himself by the prostitute Apostate. Jowan turned to Blood Magic as a way to catch up with the Amell but it ended up ruining his life and the lives of others.

 

Just because one is a victim does not give one the right to victimize others. Those mages who resort to Blood Magic and demon worship when backed into a corner more or less just show they're no better than the Templars because the Templars resort to oppression because THEY think they're backed into a corner. You have to draw the line somewhere and avoiding magic which can bring demons down on your head seems like a good a place to do it as any.

 

Wow, I sound like Wynne now.

 

And my Mageneto HATES Wynne's politics.

[TheKomandorShepard]

I disagree that arlik solution or hunting mages down won't work it will work if properly executed.