321 réponses à ce sujet

[raging_monkey]

At the end of the day it doesnt matter magi are dangerous and as injust as it is non-magi have numbers while magi have thing non-magi dont have. So its possible we will be at each others throats til we are both dead or somebody says pause

[Willowhugger]

At the end of the day it doesnt matter magi are dangerous and as injust as it is non-magi have numbers while magi have thing non-magi dont have. So its possible we will be at each others throats til we are both dead or somebody says pause

 

No, it's just the internet and people enjoy arguing.

 

:-)

[Puppy Love]

What's the legal justification for summoning demons, mind-control you can use at any time, and magic which works best if you kill someone for it?

 

A way for demons to increase their presence on Thedas.

A lot of the schools of magic fit that description.  What's the legal justification for necromancy/spirit.  Which does basically the same thing, just while desecrating the body of someone's loved one.

 

Or that lightning bolt?  Is not like we're using it to power light bulbs.

 

As for increasing the demons presence, that's more furthered by having people get their blood magic from demons.

 

I'm not saying it's a great and wonderful thing, most magic isn't to be frank.  It's lots of different ways to harm people mixed in with other things.  My suggestions aren't a matter of justification, so much as getting these bad things into a place they are more easily controlled.  I agree on a lot of things done with blood magic being criminal, they should be.  But that's the rub.  By making the crimes illegal but not the school, you can better educate, and control it's use, and take the demon pact out of the picture.

[Icy Magebane]

But really, why is it even that important that mages be free to learn blood magic?  Unless they intend to fight Templars or use mind control, why can't they stick to normal magic?

[Master Warder Z_]

 By making the crimes illegal but not the school, you can better educate, and control it's use, and take the demon pact out of the picture.

 

Considering it's origin i find this notion of "taking the demon out of blood magic" laughable.

[Willowhugger]

But really, why is it even that important that mages be free to learn blood magic?  Unless they intend to fight Templars or use mind control, why can't they stick to normal magic?

 

Yeah, I'm not really seeing the actual usage of Blood Magic which is so important.

Merrill thought it was a trick to learning how to fix the Eluvian but didn't David Gaider say that the Demon was just making up stuff and the thing will never work?

BTW, we'll get a part 4 to this essay when Inquisition is completed.

 

I hope people did enjoy the essay, even if they disagreed with it.

[raging_monkey]

A lot of the schools of magic fit that description.  What's the legal justification for necromancy/spirit.  Which does basically the same thing, just while desecrating the body of someone's loved one. Or that lightning bolt?  Is not like we're using it to power light bulbs. As for increasing the demons presence, that's more furthered by having people get their blood magic from demons. I'm not saying it's a great and wonderful thing, most magic isn't to be frank.  It's lots of different ways to harm people mixed in with other things.  My suggestions aren't a matter of justification, so much as getting these bad things into a place they are more easily controlled.  I agree on a lot of things done with blood magic being criminal, they should be.  But that's the rub.  By making the crimes illegal but not the school, you can better educate, and control it's use, and take the demon pact out of the picture.

huh reasonable. But if regulators are magi its a slippery slope if its templars they will be over cautionous in their duty. Fair points

[Willowhugger]

Considering it's origin i find this notion of "taking the demon out of blood magic" laughable.

 

Avernus succeeded by putting the Darkspawn in its place.

:-)

[Puppy Love]

But really, why is it even that important that mages be free to learn blood magic?  Unless they intend to fight Templars or use mind control, why can't they stick to normal magic?

To better control blood magic.  It's not important they be free to do it.  It should be heavy regulated, but have legal means.  It makes it so some of the good guys know the inner workings of it, and how best to defend against it.  I makes it something easier to control because it's not only in the shadows.  And it takes away most of the criminal element.

[Icy Magebane]

Yeah, I'm not really seeing the actual usage of Blood Magic which is so important.

Merrill thought it was a trick to learning how to fix the Eluvian but didn't David Gaider say that the Demon was just making up stuff and the thing will never work?

BTW, we'll get a part 4 to this essay when Inquisition is completed.

 

I hope people did enjoy the essay, even if they disagreed with it.

Merrill also said that she could have fixed the Eluvian using lyrium, but didn't have enough on hand... the Circle might have, but she was an apostate...

[Willowhugger]

Merrill also said that she could have fixed the Eluvian using lyrium, but didn't have enough on hand... the Circle might have, but she was an apostate...

"If only we knew a dwarvish smuggler and merchant of some sort. Someone who had ties to shady people who could get it directly from Orzammar."

"Ooo, yes, that would be nice wouldn't it?"

"I meant Varric!"

 

"But we know Varric."

*FACEPALM*

[Aimi]

One of the things in history which happened to the Crusades was the Pope kept calling them until people....stopped caring.

I don't think that this is actually true in a meaningful sense.

Best guesses for numerical support for early Crusades are all over the place, but the authorities that I've read - especially Tyerman (2006) - don't really suggest that they outnumbered later efforts. Crusades called in the thirteenth century, for example, garnered not only large-scale numerical support but, perhaps more importantly, vast financial support out of all proportion to anything put toward the First Crusade. And very late Crusades, like the Holy League's war against the Ottoman Empire from 1683 to 1699, were even more successful in terms of numbers recruited. It was also arguably even more politically and militarily successful than even the First Crusade.

The fact that the First Crusade's military success was out of all proportion to subsequent crusades' is down not to the amount of support it received in blood and treasure, but to the unusually favorable political and military conditions it encountered. The crucesignati enjoyed a reasonably firm alliance with the Byzantine Empire. Its Muslim opponents - random Selcuk gazis, extemporized Fatimid armies, local governors switching sides whenever was most convenient - were startlingly disunited, to a degree almost unparalleled in the history of the Middle East. And the crucesignati were astoundingly lucky. Later campaigns did not push against the open door that the First Crusade encountered. Greater resources had to be invested for even marginal gains.

In fact, I would suggest that the opposite of your statement is true: that crusading for the Holy Land remained a bizarrely effective propaganda device long after its political and military utility had passed. Outremer was created in the waxing years of the twelfth century, and it was effectively destroyed at the end of the thirteenth. Yet subsequent calls for crusades centered not on Christians' real enemies - the North African emirates, the Mamluk slave-sultanate, the Baltic pagans, the Ottoman Empire - but on the Holy Land. Men were more than willing to take the cross for Jerusalem, and the clergy took notice: sermons delivered as recruiting calls for crucesignati emphasized the Levant when the military objective was really, say, protecting the faithful in Prussia from Lithuanian depredations.

But there is a difference between crusades and exalted marches.

In Judeo-Christian symbology, Jerusalem and Palestine have always been portrayed as a promised land: a specific geographical objective with immense symbolic and religious weight. The religion was born in Palestine. The region's very name, the Holy Land, implies that the ground itself is sacred. It has always been a vastly important pilgrimage site - part of the reason the Crusades were launched in the first place - and it would be quite safe to say that it exerts an unequaled pull on the minds of the faithful.

There is no such holy or promised land for Andrastians. Minrathous, site of Andraste's martyrdom, is not the center of the faith for the White Divine. The religion is not tied to a specific geographical area for symbology. Pilgrimage does not hold the same importance as it would for Christians; the only possible exception that I know of might be Val Royeaux. Without that kind of pull, I'm not sure that Exalted Marches would garner the kind of enthusiasm as Crusades did. The histories we have about the Marches are relatively sordid stuff: at best, the Andrastian faithful fought to drive back the Qunari, and at worst they fought sordid campaigns against ostensible heretics.

This is a fairly long-winded way of saying that while I think that the point you've made - Exalted Marches might not garner the sort of support they used to - is probably correct, I disagree with the real-world historical example you used to make the point.

[Master Warder Z_]

Avernus succeeded by putting the Darkspawn in its place.

:-)

 

And so you would what subject the world to the taint?

 

I don't really understand what you mean by this, Blood Magic comes from demons, Avernus even said that.

[Willowhugger]

Point taken and conceded.

[Icy Magebane]

To better control blood magic.  It's not important they be free to do it.  It should be heavy regulated, but have legal means.  It makes it so some of the good guys know the inner workings of it, and how best to defend against it.  I makes it something easier to control because it's not only in the shadows.  And it takes away most of the criminal element.

Actually now that we are on the subject, I had forgotten that Grey Wardens are allowed to use and study blood magic... so it's not completely unheard of, but it's limited to them only (and Templar phylacteries technically).  The thing is, Avernus not only unleashed a horde of demons that wiped out most of the old Fereldan Grey Warden Keep, he then committed gruesome experiments on other Wardens in the name of magical research.  Based on that, I'm not really sure that even the Wardens should be trusted without some kind of oversight to make sure that things don't get out of hand...

 

I mean really, whenever someone attempts to delve deeper into the mysteries of blood magic, either the Veil is torn, demons show up in the mortal realm, somebody turns into an abomination, or somebody dies from blood loss.  I can't actually think of anything positive that's been taken away from such studies... the Tevinters don't seem to have come up with anything positive, and they've been studying and practicing blood magic for thousands of years.

[Willowhugger]

And so you would what subject the world to the taint?

 

I don't really understand what you mean by this, Blood Magic comes from demons, Avernus even said that.

 

It's actually a roundabout way of agreeing with you.

 

Blood Magic is not inherently evil.

 

But it's damn near useless for anything not-evil and works best if you are.

 

The Grey Wardens are about the only people who might benefit from studying it, IMHO.

[raging_monkey]

These disscussions entertain me

[Puppy Love]

Actually now that we are on the subject, I had forgotten that Grey Wardens are allowed to use and study blood magic... so it's not completely unheard of, but it's limited to them only (and Templar phylacteries technically).  The thing is, Avernus not only unleashed a horde of demons that wiped out most of their old Ferelden Grey Warden Keep, he then committed gruesome experiments on other Wardens in the name of magical research.  Based on that, I'm not really sure that even the Wardens should be trusted without some kind of oversight to make sure that things don't get out of hand...

 

I mean really, whenever someone attempts to delve deeper into the mysteries of blood magic, either the Veil is torn, demons show up in the mortal realm, somebody turns into an abomination, or somebody dies from blood loss.  I can't actually think of anything positive that's been taken away from such studies... the Tevinters don't seem to have come up with anything positive, and they've been studying and practicing blood magic for thousands of years.

Isn't the ritual that creates wardens technically blood magic?

[Willowhugger]

I'm also not sure if the Templars know the Wardens use Blood Magic.

After all, they know the joining is often fatal.

But do they know it's Blood Magic?

Maybe that's why Duncan was crazy secret about it.

[raging_monkey]

Isn't the ritual that creates wardens technically blood magic?

yes but its slightly different

[Icy Magebane]

Isn't the ritual that creates wardens technically blood magic?

Yes, it's based on blood magic, but bear in mind that the only reason we have to deal with Blights in the first place is because of blood mages who wanted more power.

[Icy Magebane]

I'm also not sure if the Templars know the Wardens use Blood Magic.

After all, they know the joining is often fatal.

But do they know it's Blood Magic?

Maybe that's why Duncan was crazy secret about it.

I vaguely remember a dialogue during the Mage origin in DA:O where you can ask Duncan his thoughts on blood magic... and I seem to recall him mentioning that it isn't forbidden... but... I think I only spoke to him about this once or twice, so I could be wrong.  I generally avoid such questions as my characters simply would not want to talk to an outsider about blood magic.

 

I do recall that the Warden can say "Grey Wardens don't forbid blood magic" to Levi Dryden...

[Puppy Love]

Yes, it's based on blood magic, but bear in mind that the only reason we have to deal with Blights in the first place is because of blood mages who wanted more power.

This is true, but one of the methods used to put out some fires involves, you guessed it, controlled burns, aka: more fire.

 

The good guys need to know about blood magic too, because making it illegal does not stop the bad guys from having it.

[Willowhugger]

I vaguely remember a dialogue during the Mage origin in DA:O where you can ask Duncan his thoughts on blood magic... and I seem to recall him mentioning that it isn't forbidden... but... I think I only spoke to him about this once or twice, so I could be wrong.  I generally avoid such questions as my characters simply would not want to talk to an outsider about blood magic.

 

It is basically the Wardens M.O. that they do all sorts of shady, unethical, evil **** in the name of the Greater GoodTM.

 

That's why Bethany hates it.

You're basically making up your own rules and throwing away the Warden Playbook due to Alistair not giving a **** in Origins.

[Master Warder Z_]

Isn't the ritual that creates wardens technically blood magic?

 

In so far as magic is used to manipulate blood...sure.

 

I'm not convinced you cannot just use a mortar and masher though.