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Anyone hates Arl Eamon?


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#226
Illegitimus

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I don't understand why he is not hated by fans?

 

This guy was entrusted in raising a king's bastard son, but let Isolde abuse him, and made him sleep on haystacks in stables.

 

Both Alistiar and some people around him knew about his lineage; yet Arl Eamon did not even bother giving him a room other servants would have been given. He was part of Isolde's abusing of Alistiar, or at least treated him very poorly, then sent him to a chantry.

 

I really hate Eamon and tried to find ways to kill him to no avail. To put it simply, I think the guy is a dick and I take issue with not being able to call him such. I can't even ask Alister why he loves the guy who knew of his royal lineage but forced him to sleep in stables with horse shits and kicked him out to monastery against his will. One of definate WTH moments in DA:O.

 

What is your thoughts of Arl Eamon?

 

I don't hate Eamon and I don't think he treated Alistair all that poorly.  He treated Alistair as a commoner he was somewhat fond of, because as an unacknowledged bastard that's what Alistair was.  Yes, he doesn't house Alistair in the castle.  But then Alistair doesn't have a job as an indoor servant, and Eamon can't give him one for fear of people thinking he's Eamon's bastard, which would be bad on a couple of levels, because it might throw Connor's inheritance into question, and also throw Alistair's status as Maric's son into question if it ever had to be used.  

 

Yeah, Eamon simultaneously drilled into Alistair's head that he wasn't entitled to the throne, while reserving the last resort option of one day using him as a pretender to the throne.  That's late medieval politics for ya.  I recognize Eamon's no saint.  I just don't hate him for it.



#227
Jacksper

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In Eamon's defense he was suppose to raise Alistair in a way that Alistair would know he was never to be king.  So to allow him to be like a son to him, one of the most popular Arls in Ferelden really would be contrary to his whole "raising the boy to not be a contestant in Ferelden's next king" thing.  But on the other-hand he himself is an honest man, and think of it this way.  You have this boy living with you, you're a high-nobleman and have a wife from a rival nation, who thinks you have a bastard son who lives with you that you pity, which sullies your image.  Or at worse she might think the boy be more important to you than your son that you have or would have with her.  Besides as stated before this is during a time of feudalism and the society was different.  Not to mention blights, mages, dwarves, Orlais and countless other things that Redcliffe would have to be bothered with from time-to-time.  

 

Arl Eamon is a generally good man, we don't know Alistair acted or why.  He doesn't seem to harbor dislike for Eamon despite being made to sleep in hay, or being sent to a chantry.  He did at one time, but he later came to the conclusion that it was foolish.  So I am the type of person to try and not take up the offenses of others in order to found my own opinion. 

 

So for me these are the facts: 1) Eamon helps during the landsmeet, 2) Eamon helps encourage Alistair to become king, 3) Eamon doesn't need to be convinced that Loghain is evil, 4) Eamon seems to be a generally upright person beloved by his people.  And lastly he is only human, he is no different than anybody else.  Alistair to me is unrealistically forgiving and naive.  He forgives Eamon (if that is so wrong), he loves Duncan and hates any reason why someone would dislike Duncan, regardless of why (Duncan to me isn't as much of a hero as some people might think).  And lastly he talks so darn much! (kidding on that one).  

 

So no, I don't dislike Eamon.  He just gives crappy gifts and decent titles that sound nice.  Raylok, Champion of Redcliffe (later Hero of Ferelden).



#228
DragonNerd

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I am going to risk the anger of the BSN gods by resurrecting this very old thread to point something out. 
 
Everyone keeps going on about how terrible Maric was as a father. People say he knew Eamon was mistreating Alistair but did nothing about it. I don't think that's true, though it probably looked that way from Alistair's perspective. 
 
If you read The Calling, then you know Maric could not keep Alistair or even claim him because of Cailan. You also know that he asked Fiona -- Alistair's Orlesian Grey Warden mother -- to stay with him in Denerim and raise Alistair with him. She said no. She also asked Maric to never tell Alistair who his mother was and to never let him become king. Maric promised. 
 
Maric's only family in the world and the only people he thinks he can trust are the Guerrins, his in-laws. So he takes Alistair to them, believing that living as Eamon's ward in the servant quarters would be a better life for Alistair than any chantry or orphanage. He never dreamed Eamon would one day marry Isolde, who would then make his son sleep with the dogs. 
 
Alistair will tell you that Eamon marrying Isolde caused "problems" with the king because it was so soon after the war. Wouldn't this be hypocritical on Maric's part? Considering the fact that Alistair's mother is an ORLESIAN GREY WARDEN who he wanted to keep on as his mistress???? Then there's also the fact that it was MARIC who brought the Orlesian Grey Wardens back into the country after Sophia Dryden got them exiled. Maric didn't have crazy paranoia toward Orlais. 
 
And Maric *did* give a damn about Alistair. The arguing between him and Eamon likely sprang from him wanting Isolde away from his son because she was mistreating him. But there was nothing he could do to protect Alistair without openly claiming him. Maric was stuck between a rock and a hard place. Ironically enough, he's the most powerful man in Ferelden and yet can't even protect his son from rumors and politics. 
 
Maric is not to blame for Eamon and Isolde's abuse and he *did* make some attempt to protect Alistair. At least in my opinion. 


#229
Qun00

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I can't say I feel strongly about this because his villainy is never shown, just implied. But yes, his intentions of using Alistair as a puppet are a relevant concern.

#230
Ghost Gal

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I think bringing up The Calling brings up some timeline inconsistencies between book and game.

 

In the game, it's explained that one huge reason Maric didn't openly claim Alistair (besides challenging Cailan's claim to the throne) was because it would humiliate his wife. More than one character in the game mentions how he (apparently) conceived Alistair while married to Rowan.

 

This makes sense, as this was back when the series was more directly following one of its inspiration series A Song of Ice and Fire (or A Game of Thrones for the TV show). Alistair's situation is very much like that of Jon Snow--a noble bastard who never knew his mother, joined the Grey Wardens Night Watch, then was offered the crown at one point. Loghain mentions (if you spare him) how Maric wanted to acknowledge Alistair, and almost did, but the only thing holding him back was how it would humiliate Rowan; the wife he cheated on to conceive this bastard who, if acknowledged, would compete for her legitimate son's inheritance. This is almost surely a direct reference to Jon's father Eddard Stark acknowledging him and raising him alongside his legitimate children, much to his wife Caitlyn's utter disgust and degradation. Caitlyn loathed having Jon around (before she had him shipped away) because seeing him was a constant reminder of her husband's infidelity, and made her feel threatened that he might take her kids' inheritance. 

 

 

Problem is, in The Calling Rowan had been dead for a few years by the time Alistair was born. There was no tawdry infidelity involved in his conception, no wounded pride or hurt feelings from his wife if he took him in, no angry step-mother to loath her husband's illegitimate son, etc. Suddenly, that noble excuse is OUT.

 

Personally, I hold Eamon more accountable than Maric. You know your wife is mistreating a child put into your care. STAND UP TO HER. I myself was mistreated by a mean, petty, spiteful step-mother who was jealous of the fact that my sibling and I were her husband's kids from a previous marriage, and spoiled her own kids (my half-siblings) rotten while trying to make us feel as miserable as possible. And few things made me ANGRIER than my father just sitting back and letting it happen. He knew she was treating us like dirt and just pretended not to notice, took her side in every argument, would tell us in private afterwards that we just needed to give her her way to "get along," etc. I have no respect or sympathy for Eamon.

 

However, Eamon and Isolde's mistreatment of Alistair doesn't completely excuse Maric in my book either. While you could almost, sorta, maybe argue that Alistair isn't really anything to Eamon--the illegitimate child of the man who married to his sister, whom he either cheated on to make the child or she's been dead for years--but for Maric, Alistair is his kid. If you know your kid is being abused in the home you put him in, when the whole reason you put him in that home was to give him a better life than the one you think you could give him grooming him to be a prince in a palace. You conceived him through fairly legitimate means since you were an unmarried widower when you conceived him, and have no current wife or adult relatives who'd feel threatened by him. What have you really got to lose by pulling your kid out of that abusive environment.

 

Yeah, yeah, "threat to Cailan's rule," "political instability," etc. It's just... ugh. Whatever.

 

Many parties are at fault as far as I'm concerned.



#231
WarriorOfLight999

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I'm in agreement with Revan. The Guerrin's treatment of Alistair was cruel, pointless and ultimately stupid. Should've sent Alistair to Loghain, or the Couslands. I'm no fan of Loghain, but I think he would have done a far better job than Eamon did.



#232
Qis

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Why is Alistair so fond of Arl Eamon, anyway?

 

Bioware did not even hint at Alistair blaming Eamon for his sad childhood stories. It's possible that Alistair is trying to view Aemon in positive light because he had no other family figures to speak of before he meets Duncan so he tends to ignore his experience of being forced to sleep with dogs and horses, but the fact that the Warden has no dialogue options of bringing up the topic of mistreatment to Arl Eamon makes me think this was an oversight. Writer might have forgotten that Alistair's sad childhood was largely Arl Eamon's responsibilty.

 

I can call Alistair whiny child for complaining about sleeping in stables and even being forced out of that life against his will, but I can't even tell ANY hostile or sarcastic line to Arl Eamon? Why is that?

 

i think Alistair stories about his childhood is mere exaggeration and fabrication...remember that he keep his identity secret, the only way to sealed them from further digging is by telling how bad it is...and so The Warden wouldn't ask for more...

 

Later, Alistair himself saying that he owe the Arl family so much if you save Connor and Isolde....that's a contradiction...

 

He don't even know where his sister is until he heard about her in Denerim, and she's working as common peoples...i suspect there is not much difference with Alistair...he even meet his sister in his dream before meeting her himself, meaning he know how his sister look like and having how many children...

 

We only hear about his sad life only from his source, no other sources...i don't read novels or any outside game sources anyway.



#233
GoldenGail3

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I image if he were sent to be raised by the Couslands, my Queen still would've fallen in love with him. Like, yeah...

I'm so meh about Eamon, I don't care about the Guerrins mere existence right now...

#234
Andreas Amell

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I don't understand why he is not hated by fans?

 

This guy was entrusted in raising a king's bastard son, but let Isolde abuse him, and made him sleep on haystacks in stables.

 

Both Alistiar and some people around him knew about his lineage; yet Arl Eamon did not even bother giving him a room other servants would have been given. He was part of Isolde's abusing of Alistiar, or at least treated him very poorly, then sent him to a chantry.

 

I really hate Eamon and tried to find ways to kill him to no avail. To put it simply, I think the guy is a dick and I take issue with not being able to call him such. I can't even ask Alister why he loves the guy who knew of his royal lineage but forced him to sleep in stables with horse shits and kicked him out to monastery against his will. One of definate WTH moments in DA:O.

 

What is your thoughts of Arl Eamon?

Welcome to the medieval treatment of bastards. 



#235
GoldenGail3

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Welcome to the medieval treatment of bastards.


Alistair got off lucky; at least he ain't dead...
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#236
Andreas Amell

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Alistair got off lucky; at least he ain't dead...

That's why I don't bother with that GoT crap. Even Oliver Twist had it better. 



#237
Illegitimus

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I don't understand why he is not hated by fans?

 

This guy was entrusted in raising a king's bastard son, but let Isolde abuse him, and made him sleep on haystacks in stables.

 

 

While Isolde certainly disliked him (because she was afraid that Eamon might acknowledge him as a son, threatening her own's position), how did she "abuse" him? 



#238
Riverdaleswhiteflash

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While Isolde certainly disliked him (because she was afraid that Eamon might acknowledge him as a son, threatening her own's position), how did she "abuse" him? 

Does making very clear that an authority figure doesn't want him there count?



#239
Illegitimus

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Does making very clear that an authority figure doesn't want him there count?

 

No.  Starvation, beatings, killing your pet.  That's abuse.  Pushing Eamon to send him off to the Templars?  Not especially remarkable treatment for an unacknowledged bastard in the setting.  



#240
Riverdaleswhiteflash

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No.  Starvation, beatings, killing your pet.  That's abuse.  Pushing Eamon to send him off to the Templars?  Not especially remarkable treatment for an unacknowledged bastard in the setting.  

I remember him saying something like "by that point Isolde had seen to it that the castle wasn't much of a home for me anyway." That seems to imply that she was guilty of some sort of emotional cruelty. (At least.) If that's not out of the common way for how unacknowledged bastards are treated in the setting,* it's still abuse.

 

*What are you using as a baseline for that assertion? I don't think we have any sign of how unacknowledged bastards are usually treated in this setting.



#241
Illegitimus

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I remember him saying something like "by that point Isolde had seen to it that the castle wasn't much of a home for me anyway." That seems to imply that she was guilty of some sort of emotional cruelty. If that's not out of the common way for how bastards are treated in the setting*, it's still abuse.

 

*What are you using as a baseline for that assertion? I don't think we have any sign of how bastards are usually treated in this setting.

 

That one of your lines points out that Alistair was treated better than most bastards is suggestive.  So is the fact the word bastard is used both as an insult and a simple descriptive term for one born out of wedlock.  And yes, certainly Isobel was not nice to Alistair.  She disliked him and she showed it.  But frankly kindness is in short supply in the setting and I think it takes more than showing your dislike to qualify as "abuse".  



#242
Riverdaleswhiteflash

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That one of your lines points out that Alistair was treated better than most bastards is suggestive. 

If you were referring to "that's not out of the common way for how bastards are treated," then that was the impression I was getting from you. And you seem to have missed that I'm skeptical of that and was curious where you got it. Besides, you can't really excuse Isolde of outright abuse (if it was present) by saying that the typical situation of bastards in this setting is worse (even if it is.) Some things are just wrong whether or not everyone around you is doing them.

 

 

So is the fact the word bastard is used both as an insult and a simple descriptive term for one born out of wedlock.

It suggests a lack of respect. It doesn't suggest that they sleep in the stables and are made to feel unwelcome.

 

 

And yes, certainly Isobel was not nice to Alistair.  She disliked him and she showed it.  But frankly kindness is in short supply in the setting and I think it takes more than showing your dislike to qualify as "abuse".  

Unless Alistair is a complete drama queen (which I guess we can't rule out) it also takes more than that to "[make] sure the castle wasn't a home to [him]." And Isolde was in a position to do worse than that. I can believe from what little we see and hear of her that she is also of a general disposition to be abusive.



#243
Fylimar

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I think, Eamon is a typical noble lord - powerhungry and always scheming. But he has some common sense and he has no problem to accept other decisions, so I guess, there are worse lords in Ferelden. Still, I'm not a big fan, despite him being nice to my Dalish elf , my City elf or my casteless dwarf. And he has the worst taste in women - seriously ... Isolde? Looks aren't everything - that woman is a mess.



#244
Illegitimus

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If you were referring to "that's not out of the common way for how bastards are treated," then that was the impression I was getting from you. And you seem to have missed that I'm skeptical of that and was curious where you got it. Besides, you can't really excuse Isolde of outright abuse (if it was present)

 

I don't intend to.  My impression of Isolde is that she pushed Eamon to stop showing Alistair any kind of care that might taken as "paternal" including moving him out of the castle and that this stage in Alistair's life didn't last too long before it culminated in Alistair's being shipped off to the Templars.  I saw no evidence that more than that happened.  To me, "abuse" implies physical harm or extensive invective and belittling.  I don't think she was more than cold and suspicious to him.  .  



#245
ThomasBlaine

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I do hate Eamon. His treatment of Alistair, his manipulation of Cailan into selling Ferelden out to Orlais, his sudden 180´ and attempt to install and use Alistair as his puppet king, and his boundless ingratitude - you don't get a single worthwhile reward for saving his life, his heir, his wife and his realm, not even him letting you recruit Jowan despite your Right of Conscription being paramount.

 

I hate him, I absolutely hate him, and I wish that I could leave him poisoned or 'help him on the way' and then go forward with Teagan as Arl and Isolde dead or gone from Ferelden. Leaving Anora as sole ruler is one of my great pleasures not least because it means all his stupid, pathetic schemes go to waste.

 

An Arl making his ward - and the king's own bastard - sleep in a stable as a child would definitely constitute abuse in the eyes of Ferelden's nobility. The same happening to a random lower class boy probably wouldn't. Take your pick.


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#246
Ghost Gal

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I was zoning out in class the other day and it just kind of hit me how much Alistair's parents and guardians dropped the ball with raising him.

 

Both his parents were alive and well and (implied to be) capable of raising him when he was born, yet they couldn't get over their own wangst and passed him off. From what I've heard, Fiona wangsted about being an elf and/or a mage and/or a Grey Warden, so she passed him off to Maric and told him not to tell him who his mother was so he wouldn't live with the racism she did. Maric then wangsted about how hard it is being a crowned king and how he wanted his son to grow up free of the burden of court, so passed him off to Eamon.

 

Eamon then had him sleep in the stables and kennels like a stray animal. True, he occasionally showed scraps of affection like taking Alistair to the Wonders of Thedas to buy him a toy, but it's no better than occasionally feeding or petting a stray dog that you won't let in the house. He also fabricated the story (with or without Maric) that Alistair's mother was a human scullery maid who died giving birth to him, making Alistair feel guilty just for existing: guilty that he killed his mother (probably also believing that he was conceived through rape), and guilty for being a threat to his legitimate brother's succession. All just by being born.

 

Eamon then married Isolde, who went out of her way to make Alistair's stay in the castle unbearable, which Eamon wouldn't stand up to her about. Then they both shipped him off to the Templars to get him out of the way, knowing that he hated it. The Templars then treated Alistair like a nuisance who needed to shut up and follow orders, until the day Duncan arrived.

 

Yes, I KNOW "other characters have it worse," but I'm not talking about other characters; I'm talking about Alistair. And Alistair's situation sucks to me because his situation was needlessly hurtful because the adults in his upbringing couldn't get their acts together. Both his parents could have been in his life but they chose to give him up because, "Waaaa! It's hard to be an elf/mage! Waaaa! It's hard to be crowned king! He'll be happier without me!" Then they passed him off to a guy who neglected him, and who married a shrieking harpy who made Alistair's life as miserable as she could before having him shipped off to an order he hated just to get him out of the way.

 

Not only that, but Eamon pretty much drilled into Alistair's head from infancy that he was an inconvenience just for existing. "Oh, your father cheated on his wife with a maid to create you." "Oh, your father may or may not have forced her into it, so you were conceived through infidelity and possible rape." "Oh, your mother died giving birth to you, so you killed her just for being born." "Oh, your very existence as a royal bastard threatens Cailan's rule, so we need to keep you a secret to make his life easier." "Oh, you're kind of an inconvenience to raise since you're not really my kin, but I'll be generous and let you sleep in the stables instead of throwing you out." "Oh, you just existing here is causing problems for my new wife, so I'm going to ship you off to the Templars to get you out of the way."

 

Good freaking grief, Eamon. No wonder Alistair has such deep-seated self-worth issues.

 

I know, I know. Alistair's situation could have been a lot worse; but it also could have been better


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#247
Illegitimus

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Both his parents were alive and well and (implied to be) capable of raising him when he was born, yet they couldn't get over their own wangst and passed him off. From what I've heard, Fiona wangsted about being an elf and/or a mage and/or a Grey Warden, so she passed him off to Maric and told him not to tell him who his mother was so he wouldn't live with the racism she did. 

 

Fiona could have raised Alistair...if she'd gone apostate.  I doubt that option ever occurred to her.  As a Circle mage she was accustomed to the idea that she would not be allowed to raise a child.  Maric could of course have raised Alistair as an acknowledged royal bastard, although that would have raised questions like "who is the mother?" and "Will Cailan and Alistair grow up as deadly enemies who will tear the country apart?"



#248
Ghost Gal

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Fiona could have raised Alistair...if she'd gone apostate.  I doubt that option ever occurred to her.  As a Circle mage she was accustomed to the idea that she would not be allowed to raise a child.  Maric could of course have raised Alistair as an acknowledged royal bastard, although that would have raised questions like "who is the mother?" and "Will Cailan and Alistair grow up as deadly enemies who will tear the country apart?"

 

Hey, Anders left the Wardens easily enough. Why not her?

 

The more I think about it, the more I think Maric acknowledging Alistair wouldn't be the huge deal people make it out to be. Succession goes from father to eldest male heir, i.e. eldest son if he has one. Alistair is the younger brother. If Cailan and Alistair been full blood-brothers, would Maric have had to kill or get rid of his younger son just because the boys might fight over the crown one day? No, he'd keep him. Just give him a Teyrndom or something so Alistair would have some providence to be responsible for so he wouldn't have time or desire to take the whole country from his elder brother. (Then again, it seems to be an inherent Theirin trait not to want to rule. Maric, Cailan, and Alistair ALL dislike ruling and try to pass the responsibility off to someone else first chance they get.)

 

Besides, that doesn't really change the fact that Maric passed him off to someone who neglected and allowed his wife to mistreats him, and as likely as not knew that abuse was going on and did nothing. Not even so much as a letter or a visit to Eamon saying, "Hey! I see how you're treating my kid. Knock it off." Nut-up, dude. It takes more to raise a kid than just rolling off a woman and then passing the bundle of stink off to someone else.

 

Maric and Fiona both brought him into this world, so I'm not giving them a free pass for just dumping him in it. 



#249
Riverdaleswhiteflash

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Hey, Anders left the Wardens easily enough. Why not her?

Hey, Anders had a bad enough time as an apostate, and he didn't have to look after a kid. I don't know that I like the way Alistair was brought up, and I agree that Maric and Eamon could both have done better, but living as an apostate's child would have the potential to be far worse.



#250
Illegitimus

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Hey, Anders left the Wardens easily enough. Why not her?

 

 

Anders was a rebel.  At that time, Fiona wasn't.