271 réponses à ce sujet

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

 

2 - What's the difference between declaring independance there or later? Either way, the mages are locked up in towers. They don't have the means to build alliances or resources while they're there. They would need to leave first to do that.

4 - Invalid point. Entirely depends on player choice.

2: The mages are able to speak with Wardens as a matter of public policy, and are almost certainly able to do so without supervision to judge by the fact that Duncan is able to ask them to work with darkspawn blood without everyone present immediately being arrested. (Yes, I see an argument that the Joining isn't technically blood magic, but I don't agree with it and I'd put good money on the less sane elements of the Templars not even understanding it despite the loophole you'd use being an adaptation of one they created.) And the mages are released to speak with and work for high-ranking nobles and even royalty. Someone with true skill could use even that to gain power, and Orsino being able to do things for Quentin under Meredith seems to me to imply that that's far from all they have. (Unless Quentin counts as a noble, but that would instead tend to prove my point that mages can get things they want through that channel.)

 

4: That's actually the problem. That Fiona gives in in the absence of player action is because the player needs to save her from a problem she created. I see and to some degree agree with Ian's (and your) argument that this isn't in character for her, but I don't think this argument works.

[TEWR]

 

1-Calling for a vote of independence when the mage leadership is surrounded by hundreds of thousands of non-mages, including Templars, Soldiers, Chevaliers, Bards, etc.

 

The soldiers, Chevaliers, and bards are all busy at this point in time contending with a different threat -- the Orlesian Civil War. The matters of the Chantry falling to pieces are separate from what they have to deal with, and unless the Chantry calls on them for assistance they probably won't respond to the call.

 

Secondly, when Lambert's group attacked, they were only solidifying the vote for independence. It was pretty apparent that the motion wouldn't have passed at all, although I've always been a sort of Lambert supporter. But I think that he had to have seen that he had to approach the matter differently, otherwise he'd just be giving the Mages what they want.

 

....I wish Lambert was in Inquisition.

 

 

I didn't say she should trust the Divine. I said she should try to make common cause with her. There's a difference. It is entirely possible to be someone's ally while not trusting them, waiting for the other shoe to drop, and trying to be ready with damage control when the shoe comes.

 

This I agree with. Fiona should've been trying to work with the Divine -- trust being irrelevant -- if not work to maybe subtly manipulate her to Fiona's interests (seeing as a the GE advises the Divine on arcane matters).

[andy6915]

Jeez, can't even discuss Alistair without the whole thread devolving into whether or not Fiona is the most despicable, idiotic f-up that ever existed.

 

And it was all my fault ... All I did was respond with "yeah it does mean Alistair isn't actually related to that shrew of a woman in Denerim, but it also means he is related to that idiot Fiona" or something like that. That was all, a single response spoken out of turn. And it caused a big argument, one I stayed out of. I didn't even mean for it to happen, and yet it did simply from me bringing her up for the span of a sentence.

 

In case anyone wants a refresher, this is all it took to accidentally kick off a Fiona argument.

 

http://forum.bioware...6#entry19048288

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Jeez, can't even discuss Alistair without the whole thread devolving into whether or not Fiona is the most despicable, idiotic f-up that ever existed.

Just as well. I'm tired of the Loghain debate I'm quite sure I just started again.

[sylvanaerie]

That's alright, I don't like Loghain regardless of what happened in TST and I can't ever think of Fiona kindly because of her actions in the books either.  Accidents happen, women get pregnant when they don't intend to, especially when birth control is non-existent or not available.  I think she did care about Alistair, but she was (at the time) an elf mage grey warden.  That's about as messed up a situation in the prevailing culture of Thedas as it could be for raising a small child.  She couldn't raise him because she had lost the 'grey warden-ness' and had to go back to the Circle, she would have been forced to give him up altogether.  And backed into a corner people make distrustful decisions without exploring all the options available to them, something she's guilty of in both the books and Inquisition.  

 

My problem with her is, she gave up Alistair to Maric and then tells him "I don't want him raised in the palace either" basically forcing Maric to abandon him.  And Alistair learned who was his father anyway, I just don't get what she was trying to 'protect' him from?  As an acknowledged bastard at least he would have been prepared for the life he was thrust into after the events at Ostagar.  Either this was a completely messed up miscommunication or to me, as a mother, that's monumentally stupid.  So she's always been stupid from my perspective.  Others may not see her that way and that's the beauty of Dragon Age.  Different people see different things in different characters.  Fiona wasn't 'character assassinated' in Inquisition from my perspective, unless it's to make her look even worse than she did in earlier stories.  I suppose to someone who actually liked her character, it would be 'character assassination'.  From my perspective, most of her troubles stemmed from her lacking any ability of foresight at all, more of a "alligator mouth getting her hummingbird butt" into trouble.  And that's kind of how she seems in the books to me. 

 

We do not know to what extent Maric took an interest into Alistair's life behind the scenes, or what Fiona may have been told in regards to his treatment beyond one line where Alistair discusses meeting Cailan and Maric when he was young.  Loghain will also mention him if recruited as well I think, though it's not a long discussion either.  And considering the games are moving away from Ferelden we won't know much more than we do now.  I'd like to think, if she had known/taken an interest, Fiona would have at least protested his being treated like a mabari, but she didn't.  In fact, I think the mabari get treated better than Alistair was.

 

TBH I wish that Alistair hadn't been foisted on Eamon or that Maric wasn't such a neglectful parent.  I am glad that shrew in Denerim isn't his sister, but at this point, Alistair thinks she is, so she may as well be.  I wish Bioware hadn't reconned things and made Fiona his mom, but they did.  I would rather his mother be someone who had loved him but died before she could tell him that, at least he has that to cling to, that at least one person in the world may have loved him and wanted him.  And watching Alistair tell Fiona she had abused the trust given her in Redcliffe is the best part of the Mage Recruitment storyline for me.

[SugarBabe49]

That's alright, I don't like Loghain regardless of what happened in TST and I can't ever think of Fiona kindly because of her actions in the books either.  Accidents happen, women get pregnant when they don't intend to, especially when birth control is non-existent or not available.  I think she did care about Alistair, but she was (at the time) an elf mage grey warden.  That's about as messed up a situation in the prevailing culture of Thedas as it could be for raising a small child.  She couldn't raise him because she had lost the 'grey warden-ness' and had to go back to the Circle, she would have been forced to give him up altogether.  And backed into a corner people make distrustful decisions without exploring all the options available to them, something she's guilty of in both the books and Inquisition.  

 

My problem with her is, she gave up Alistair to Maric and then tells him "I don't want him raised in the palace either" basically forcing Maric to abandon him.  And Alistair learned who was his father anyway, I just don't get what she was trying to 'protect' him from?  As an acknowledged bastard at least he would have been prepared for the life he was thrust into after the events at Ostagar.  Either this was a completely messed up miscommunication or to me, as a mother, that's monumentally stupid.  So she's always been stupid from my perspective.  Others may not see her that way and that's the beauty of Dragon Age.  Different people see different things in different characters.  Fiona wasn't 'character assassinated' in Inquisition from my perspective, unless it's to make her look even worse than she did in earlier stories.  I suppose to someone who actually liked her character, it would be 'character assassination'.  From my perspective, most of her troubles stemmed from her lacking any ability of foresight at all, more of a "alligator mouth getting her hummingbird butt" into trouble.  And that's kind of how she seems in the books to me. 

 

We do not know to what extent Maric took an interest into Alistair's life behind the scenes, or what Fiona may have been told in regards to his treatment beyond one line where Alistair discusses meeting Cailan and Maric when he was young.  Loghain will also mention him if recruited as well I think, though it's not a long discussion either.  And considering the games are moving away from Ferelden we won't know much more than we do now.  I'd like to think, if she had known/taken an interest, Fiona would have at least protested his being treated like a mabari, but she didn't.  In fact, I think the mabari get treated better than Alistair was.

 

TBH I wish that Alistair hadn't been foisted on Eamon or that Maric wasn't such a neglectful parent.  I am glad that shrew in Denerim isn't his sister, but at this point, Alistair thinks she is, so she may as well be.  I wish Bioware hadn't reconned things and made Fiona his mom, but they did.  I would rather his mother be someone who had loved him but died before she could tell him that, at least he has that to cling to, that at least one person in the world may have loved him and wanted him.  And watching Alistair tell Fiona she had abused the trust given her in Redcliffe is the best part of the Mage Recruitment storyline for me.

 

When it comes down to it - I wonder what Fiona was really thinking. Sure - she may have been scared for Alistair being taken away by the Templars/Circle but did she give him a better future bygiving him to Maric, telling him that she doesn't want Alistair to grow up as a prince and being at war with his brother for the Throne?

 

Because - ironically enough - by giving Alistair to Maric, who gave Alistair to Eamon - they indirectly did put Alistair in front of the throne.

 

If Fiona had let the Templars take Alistair - he probably would have grown up much better. He wouldn't have known his father was King Maric - thus he would have been oblivious. He could have had the chance to grow up with a family who cares about him - not a man who allowed his wife to rule the roost and send a young boy to live in the stables.

 

Alistair could have very well joined have joined the Grey Wardens (since it was clear that Duncan was there to recruit him) and the whole situation of having to either choose Alistair or Anora for the throne (or to marry them) would have not been a problem since it pave the way clear for Anora to keep the throne.

 

At the end of the day - Maric and Fiona both had a hand in getting Alistair to where he was with Eamon (or Isolde) browbeating the young boy into believing he was not worthy of anything. Eamon made it clear to Alistair that he would never get the throne so Alistair grew up believing he would never been accepted.

 

And comes along Origins - where Alistair is suddenly perfect to be the King all because of his bloodline (and that is the only reason why he was even suggested).

 

At the end of the day - Fiona, Maric and Eamon (Isolde) had all led Alistair on this path which makes them (to me) really bad parents. None of them really cared about Alistair and his well being. 

 

Yes - you can say that Fiona and Maric tried their best by sending Alistair away and that Eamon wanted to prevent a war between Alistair Calian (if it ever came down to it) but their actions led to the consequences that Alistair had to suffer. 

 

He believes his mother may have been raped by Maric and he was the reason why his mother died - Goldanna was quick to blame him for the death. Say what you want - but Alistair possibly still believes that. And that he is related to a woman who wants nothing to do with him except money (and he probably does provide for her because that is who Alistair is)

 

People say that Alistair is out of Character for telling the Mages/Fiona to get out of his Kingdom for abusing his trust because that is what she did. A part of me is sad that Alistair had just sent away his mother but at the same time - he doesn't know Fiona is his mother, and since she is not in too much of a rush to let him know, I can't feel sorry for her.

 

Another part of me was glad that Alistair called out Fiona on her actions (since the Inquisitor couldn't) and knowing that she had been exiled by her own son makes me hope that she will at least think things through the next time (if there is a next time) because that is what happens when you do things without thinking.

 

Overall - Fiona, Maric and Eamon/Isolde all share the blame in Alistair's upbringing (and my warden(s) would kick their asses if they went anywhere near him again) and all actions have consequences - even when they don't want to face them.

[Handsome Jack]

I do hate his wife.

[IanPolaris]

Why this hate towards Arl Eamon for how he raised Alistair.  I call "modern player bias" here.  If you actually look at how even royal bastards were raised and handled as late as the 19th century let alone the 16th (which is roughly where Fereldan is culturally), you'll find that Alistair is treated very well.

 

Yes I said it:  Alistair is treated very well (which is probably while the Arlessa thought that Alistair was her husband's favored bastard).  Sleeping in the stables?  That's actually standard fare for commoner servants in a castle.  In fact many peasants would kill for such duty since if you slept in the stables and handled the animals (a very important job in a midaeval/early-rennaissance society!), you were almost assured of having shelter, warmth, enough to eat, and face to face contact with some of the most important people of the land.  In fact such servants were more likely to be chosen as commoner pages and squires (it did happen IRL especially in England...and Fereldan is loosely modeled on England).

 

As for being discouraged from having ambition, well that was typical too!  [And in no way 'child abuse']  This was a matter of political survival and stability....for all parties [otherwise the first thing the new Queen Anora would have done would have been to arrange an 'accident' for young Alistair.....or Isolde would have].

 

I really don't like this modern 21st century retro-sensibility here and how it unfairly slimes the Arl (and by extension Fiona and Maric).  I am not saying they are anywhere within shouting distance of perfect people, but they aren't the knuckledragging, vile idiots that some would make them out to be.

[IanPolaris]

Hair turning grey is not just a sign of old age. I went to high school with a guy who was probably 75% grey by the time we graduated.  Then there was someone like my grandfather who died at the age 68 with a full head of dark hair.  

 

When I was in the USAF years and years ago, my immediate supervisor was a Sergeant that was 28years old and though he had a full set of hair, was completely grey.  My point is that going grey young (sometimes very young) is uncommon but hardly unheard of.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

When I was in the USAF years and years ago, my immediate supervisor was a Sergeant that was 28years old and though he had a full set of hair, was completely grey.  My point is that going grey young (sometimes very young) is uncommon but hardly unheard of.

I get the impression stress makes it more likely, for that matter, and running an arling can't be good for avoiding that. Also he was poisoned, which I'd always imagined was largely to blame.

[KnightofPhoenix]

As a character, I love Eamon. He makes Origin a lot more interesting. Probably by accident, I don't think the writers intended for him to be as interesting and problematic as he was. 

[TEWR]

As a character, I love Eamon. He makes Origin a lot more interesting. Probably by accident, I don't think the writers intended for him to be as interesting and problematic as he was. 

 

Given Bioware's writing lately, I think you're def. right in saying it was accidental how great a character he is.

[WardenHero]

To answer OP's question, Alistair is great. I get it. And I hate whoever treated him badly yaddi-yaddi-yadda... Tbh, Eamon isn't all that good or bad. He's just him. I bet sending Alistair to the stables to sleep wasn't his choice either. Historically, most royal bastards were treated this way and it was so much better than turning them out on the street or killing them outright before they reach adulthood.

When the chance to replace the Fereldan monarch came up, he jumped right on it. He suggested Alistair to take the chance and wouldn't want to see the Theirin line ending without putting up a fight. If I remember correctly, the Guerrins sacrificed so much for the Theirin kings and seeing it end just like that is a real kick to the dangle bags. Eamon didn't oppose your choice if you put Anora as the sole ruler either. His motives aren't altruistic, I agree, seeing as his position is equivalent of that of a politician. Then again, how many politicians acted purely out of altruism anyway?
Alistair will no longer be the whiny kid if you toughened him up. He will even express a little regret if you let Anora take the throne (provided you finish off Loghain that is).

This is all just making mountains out of molehills. If BW were to make everyone in the game Mary Sue's/Gary Stu's, who would want to play it? T'is life. Not everybody has squeaky clean conscience, whether you like it or not.

[Xetykins]

Cousland a mary sue? She could not even save her parents. I think the Tabris is more of a mary sue considering she was just in time to save her father and the rest of her family.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Cousland a mary sue? She could not even save her parents. I think the Tabris is more of a mary sue considering she was just in time to save her father and the rest of her family.

I mean, if never failing to protect someone they care about is how we're judging Mary Sue (rather than by, say, the unbelievable combat prowess all Wardens of any race, class or origin share) Tabris doesn't count either. Tabris wasn't able to protect his/her cousin from being gangraped. By this metric I think the best Mary Sue would be Brosca, since Brosca does manage to prevent Behrat's men from raping Rica. (Though even then I think Behrat is implied to have coerced Rica into having sex with him in exchange for being chosen as a noble hunter at all, which by the way is utterly foolish considering that he's trying to put her into a position that might very well end with her having the power to order him killed on a whim. Maybe if she wound up with an Ivo he'd be safe [keyword: maybe], but a Harrowmont, an Aeducan or a Dace with any standing could very easily slaughter a bunch of casteless who'd grievously hurt a woman he might care about and certainly wants to keep happy. And then she winds up with Bhelen, who really does seem to care about her, and is Bhelen.)

[KaiserShep]

Unless you're a Cousland, in which case you're such a perfect Mary Sue/Gary Stu that everyone gets on their hands and knees to give you a ****** for being the most perfectest sparkling snowflakes with the squeakiest clean conscious that ever existed.

 

Everyone else? Nah, can't make them too nice or likable. They all have to be "realistically" flawed and morally grey so we can't like or root for anyone.

 

Eh? I don't recall encountering any NPC's that really cared one way or the other. Even if the nobles in Denerim recognize a Cousland Warden, they don't support you unless you do favors and convince them during the landsmeet. Basically, it has zero effect on how characters treat you.

 

Kudos on remembering The Grand Chawhee though. If ever a horse deserved to win a birthday race, it was that one.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Eh? I don't recall encountering any NPC's that really cared one way or the other. Even if the nobles in Denerim recognize a Cousland Warden, they don't support you unless you do favors and convince them during the landsmeet. Basically, it has zero effect on how characters treat you.

There is a brief dialogue option in which you tell Jory you're the child of a teryn and he refers to you by the title "My Lord." (Or possibly "My Lady", but the two Couslands I played that far were both male. Still, I'm assuming if I'd played Iphis that far that's how she'd be referred to.) Apart from that I don't think he's ever any more polite to you even when he learns.

 

There's also a line where Slim Couldry is surprised to learn you were born into the (social) class he makes clear at every possible opportunity he hates, but he quickly brushes it aside, and even if he was ruder to you for it I don't think that would count for what you're referring to.

[Xetykins]

I mean, if never failing to protect someone they care about is how we're judging Mary Sue (rather than by, say, the unbelievable combat prowess all Wardens of any race, class or origin share) Tabris doesn't count either. Tabris wasn't able to protect his/her cousin from being gangraped. By this metric I think the best Mary Sue would be Brosca, since Brosca does manage to prevent Behrat's men from raping Rica. (Though even then I think Behrat is implied to have coerced Rica into having sex with him in exchange for being chosen as a noble hunter at all, which by the way is utterly foolish considering that he's trying to put her into a position that might very well end with her having the power to order him killed on a whim. Maybe if she wound up with an Ivo he'd be safe [keyword: maybe], but a Harrowmont, an Aeducan or a Dace with any standing could very easily slaughter a bunch of casteless who'd grievously hurt a woman he might care about and certainly wants to keep happy. And then she winds up with Bhelen, who really does seem to care about her, and is Bhelen.)

I know, but he loves his Tabris so much that I'm just bouncing the mary sue ball down his way :-)

[WardenHero]

Cousland this Cousland that... Jeez... I'm late on the scene but no matter. It takes a special kind of idiot to mention the Couslands in this thread which is totally irrelevant. Glad to see Chawhee-Tabris outta the scene this time.

Every origins are well written and I've played all of them. Cousland, Brosca, Tabris, Aeducan, etc. Neither is more Mary Sue than the other. Everybody has their preferred origins and I am trying to point this out to everyone before another "Chawhee" appears.

So that's it. Back to the topic please.

[sjsharp2011]

tbh I find most of the big noble people are opportunists anyway and I'm not just talking about the Humans but the dwarves do this as well those that have played the dwarf origin story will probably agree as well. So it seems that everyone is just looking out for themselves. I just feel good that Alistair doesn't feel bad about Eamon and supports the plan laid out as it is the best one on the table.I just hope my dwardf doesn't feel too bad about having to return to Orzammar to get dwarven assistance

[Ambivalent]

Just to record I never liked "human>all" in Ferelden politics(I gained support of so many races, solve their every single one of problems, being a Grey Warden etc. but i can't convince them to make me ruler even by force. My army could simply siege Denerim, other "canditates" lacked that much force. Also so many races like dwarves and elves wouldn't care who rules or not since they're either away or slaves. Not mentioning every single one of them except Loghain owes my character, ah well.)

 

Anyway with the exception of Howe i never hated any NPC in Origins.(I disliked Uldred too but he was too "minor" to care about since 90% of mages i met were either blood mages or apostates) Everyone had a nice and explaning background, everyone had some ideas, some characteristics, motivations.

 

Eamon had some marriage problems and got rid of Alistair. He visited him a few times but after a while Alistair rejected to see him so Eamon probably moved on. Eamon probably wanted to help him even while being away but that's as far as it went i guess. He wasn't Alistair's father anyway so his sympathy shouldn't have been unlimited.

 

Cruel? Not really because Alistair admits he was being mean brat to Eamon. And what were we expecting? Divorcing his wife for someone else's unlegitimate son?

 

Oh and Eamon was opportunist. But so was Alistair. So was Loghain. So were dwarven nobles. So was Morrigan. Anora? For sure. Howe? Why not?

 

Even Cailan, the king, royal blood, son of Maric tried to dump Anora to marry to Orlessian queen, what for? Her beautiful eyes? Nope, more power, more stability between two nations, forging an alliance, maybe in due time "combining two into one bigger empire" etc.

 

Why did you place Alistair on throne? For the lulz? Or he was best choice for leadership in military sense, your friend/lover and a Grey Warden just like you.

 

Why did you choose Anora over Alistair? Only for the looks? Or he was Loghain's daughter, Cailan's wife, a good politician(Means generally "questionable" person but still) and you "agreed" to support her so you were expecting some fruitation regarding to your or Grey Wardens' status. Or have you married to her so you were being a prince in consort?

 

Every main character including your own character(Unless you did self sacrifice) was opportunist. That made even most "selfless" and humble characters questionable. 

 

Won't gonna mention about Dark Ritual, that was opportunism at master degree.

 

Except Howe everyone could be agreed on, everyone was right and wrong, everyone did good things and terrible things.(Even Howe had his dreams broken so gave into his hatred and jealousy but he did so many terrible things that's why i'll pass him.)

 

That's why most people loved the game anyway, me included.

 

PS: Though i'd love to have an option to "Do what you want, i don't care" at Landsmeet especially for non human nobles but well, that's me

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Just to record I never liked "human>all" in Ferelden politics(I gained support of so many races, solve their every single one of problems, being a Grey Warden etc. but i can't convince them to make me ruler even by force. My army could simply siege Denerim, other "canditates" lacked that much force. Also so many races like dwarves and elves wouldn't care who rules or not since they're either away or slaves. Not mentioning every single one of them except Loghain owes my character, ah well.)

Your army isn't there to besiege Denerim, it's there to kill darkspawn. And unless you're thinking of an entirely different army than I am, most of it doesn't care who rules Ferelden. (Except the Redcliffe soldiers, and they're not going to help you do this.)