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Was the Warden just to powerful to exist?


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#1
animedreamer

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I know this must sound like a odd question, and probably an even odder conclusion for our beloved Warden's from Dragon Age Origins, but hear me out. Perhaps in game wise, as another explanation besides external reasons why the Warden can't or doesn't resurface in these continued universes is because they are just to powerful in relation to the people in the rest of the world. Crazy right? Well lets look at it from a in game perspective for a moment.

 

In Dragon Age Origins Warden if obviously the main protagonist so let's examine exactly what the Warden can potentially do on a personal level. To do this we have to look at all 3 classes, their abilities and specializations. 

 

Mage Warden, probably the best example of just how powerful the Warden could be is right here. It is no secret that the Mage was one of the best things right out the gate in Origins, high damage, versatility, fully customizable to handle various roles within the party, from Damager, to Healer, to Controller, to Tank, the Mage could do almost every job. From a in game perspective Mages are feared, and in this case its probably justifiable, The Mage Warden is praised by Irving as his prized pupil, who even finishes their Harrowing in record time according to Cullen, Jowan during the Origin also praised you as a Great Mage as being smart and deducing you could probably avoid the Templars had you the desire to run away from the tower despite you being his junior, You are a badass right from the start, and depending on your choices in the origin, you can show yourself to be a no compromising straight laced staunch upholder of Law and Order keep true to the Circle, or a Loosey Goosey willing to bend or outright break the Rules the end result is the same regardless, you become a Warden. Let's take a look at some of the examples as a Mage that make you particularly noteworthy.

 

During Nature of the Beast you can happen upon the Arcane Warrior specialization, a unique blend of Mage and Warrior that was until that point lost to time, the Mage warden can learn and utilize this specialization at a later point which in turn makes them the last Arcane Warrior in existence that we know of. If you go by the hyperbole and abilities shown in game the Arcane Warrior is indeed a very very powerful specialization that could easily make it seem the Warden themselves are Superhuman, (if that could even apply to someone who can already cast magic). Still this knowledge was given to the Warden so its fair to say that if you teach it to anyone else in your party it's because your Warden taught it to them, on the same note you could choose not to teach any of them and that makes the conclusion of the Warden being overpowered seem that much more likely.

 

Shape Shifter, Bloodmage, and Spirit Healer are used by other people throughout the lore so their really is no claim to be made about a Warden who specializes in those abilities specifically, but one could argue that if Morrigan and Flemeth themselves are powerful in part because they are Shapeshifters then it might also apply to the Warden (Personally when I got DAO pc i grabbed the enhanced Shapeshifting Mod quickly and never looked back, it corrected the Specializations glaring problem and added more variety.)

 

In Awakening, two more Specializations are added, Keeper and Battlemage, while the former again has been seen partially used in other games, and by its name is likely widely known throughout the Dalish Clans, the later we have not really seen since Awakening, and it is powerful. Draining Aura, Elemental Chaos, Stoic, Hand of Winter, combined with spells and passives like elemental mastery, attunement and fade shield, it's clear to see the Mage Warden would be nearly unstoppable in some cases, also honestly we've seen the scope of most mages in origins and just how powerful a first enchanter or senior mage is, and the Warden surpasses all of them by the end of Awakening, not to mention Amgarrak and Witch Hunt..

 

If a Warrior or Rogue the praise and proven ability of the Warden is no less phenomenal, a City Elf Warden can nearly single handedly slaughter the entire palace of the Arl of Denerim including the Arl's son and his two lackey's with nothing more than a borrowed sword and whatever gear they find along the way.

 

A Dwarf Noble can enter their own proving and defeat some of the finest warriors in Orzammar, and survive long enough in the Deep Roads with no armor other than what they find and what weapons they are given to join the Grey Wardens. Your father either calls you the best fighter, or quickest fighter in your house when he speaks of you to Duncan. You can kill Lord Dace's song in a honor proving if you choose to press the issue between the two of you, and Mandar is supposedly a accomplished duelist himself.

 

Dwarf Commoner is pretty much feared as one of Beraht skullcrackers, where in its pretty clear that you are the better fighter between you and Leske, you also go on to win a proving despite fighting veteran warriors, and if you ask Leske about whether or not you took some of the guards down with you upon capture he remarks you did indeed, besting several of them before they finally captured you. You then with the aid of Leske kill everyone in the old Carta including Beraht. 

 

Dalish Elf is probably the most tame in terms of accomplishments but you are recognized as a hunter or at least are capable of hunting according to Duncan's introduction of the Dalish Origin, where he comments your quarry isn't always the local fauna. 

 

This is already going on longer than i intended so in a effort to short it fill in all the accomplishments, levels gained, skills potentially learned, weapons obtained, armor obtained, either of which could be created, and just compare it all to that of which Hawke can do, and judge for yourself. Now with DA:I nearing release, and from what we've seen, while it may not be a competition, i can't help but wonder if they are capable of reaching the levels of sheer levels of epic 

 

 


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#2
Willowhugger

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Not anymore than Hawke.

Or the Inquisitor.

And, frankly, I thought Awakening was a fine ending.


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#3
raging_monkey

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While the mage warden was greatly over powered which is its my canon(mages are canon for me) they were no more powerful than his possible cousin since apostates just as strong. Maybe the inq is stronger due to his left hand which is unkown variable. So in short each protag has edge over other
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#4
Guest_StreetMagic_*

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Not anymore than Hawke.

Or the Inquisitor.

And, frankly, I thought Awakening was a fine ending.

 

I think Hawke's story came off slightly more realistic (as far as fantasy goes). It mostly remained an "immigrant does good" story, and the enemies Hawke fights only escalate into the "epic" level a few times. Nor did Hawke save the world. Really, the world was even worse after Hawke than before. lol


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#5
EmperorSahlertz

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No. Gameplay/story segregation. The Warden is an extremely talented individual, but he isn't any more or less powerful than Hawke or the Inquisitor will be.


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#6
Guest_StreetMagic_*

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No. Gameplay/story segregation. The Warden is an extremely talented individual, but he isn't any more or less powerful than Hawke or the Inquisitor will be.

 

Unless the Warden is an Arcane Warrior.

 

Or a Spirit Archer in DA:A :)

 

I don't think it's just a gameplay thing. There's nothing Hawke could do that would have an answer to them.



#7
EmperorSahlertz

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Unless the Warden is an Arcane Warrior.

 

Or a Spirit Archer in DA:A :)

Even in those cases. Especially since the DA gods would relegate him to using nerf weaponry in the future.



#8
schall_und_rauch

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Isn't that the standard for a typical hero game?

Just look at how many impossible or never-done-in-a-hundred-years things Shepard did.

 

So I upgrade my sniper rifle to take out a Thresher Maw and everybody looks at me like I'm the second coming. Among 1000 other things.


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#9
Reaverwind

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No. The Warden had a job to do, and got it done, albeit against difficult odds. I see no reason to turn the Warden into some super-hero solving everyone's problems. My Wardens are generally dead, having taken one for the team, or off doing what Wardens do.


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#10
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Even in those cases. Especially since the DA gods would relegate him to using nerf weaponry in the future.

 

Actually, yeah.. you're probably right at least in the Spirit Archer case (no more archer warriors.. that's been nerfed). 



#11
ShadowLordXII

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probably



#12
PrinceLionheart

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No. The Warden wasn't exactly Commander "The story bends to my will to showcase how awesome I am" Shepard.

 

If anything, I'd say the Warden was more of an exceptional leader than anything else.


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#13
Mistic

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Not really. Gameplay and story segreggation is in effect. At best, in pure gameplay terms, the Warden would be considered a Boss, like the Arishok. And the Warden is not invincible. After all, what a boring game DA:O would be if that were the case, wouldn't it?

 

Their accomplishments are great, that's for sure. However, let's not forget what a band of companions he or she might have. Counting the best possible scenario for each companion, the future Hero of Ferelden was fighting with the King of Ferelden, the Arishok of the Qunari, the Left Hand of the Divine, Flemeth's daughter, the man who has become a nightmare to the most feared assassin guild in Thedas, a nice Abomination, a free golem, a Dwarf of the warrior caste and future Grey Warden, etc. That helped a lot.

 

If it's from a political point of view, the Warden's influence doesn't go beyond Ferelden even in the best case scenario, and it's still under the king or queen. In comparison, it's pretty clear by now that the Inquisitor will hold much more power than the Warden and Hawke put together. It's the Inquisitor's health I'd be more worried about, to be honest.


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#14
TheKomandorShepard

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Well my warden crushed everything on his way same for hawke but it seems that inq will get a lot beating in dai at least that what was in trailers.



#15
schall_und_rauch

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If it's from a political point of view, the Warden's influence doesn't go beyond Ferelden even in the best case scenario, and it's still under the king or queen. In comparison, it's pretty clear by now that the Inquisitor will hold much more power than the Warden and Hawke put together. It's the Inquisitor's health I'd be more worried about, to be honest.

 

Maybe you should. Do you chose the red pill to make a fatal jump to your death, or the blue one to have a bolt of lightning strike you to death for about five minutes straight...?

 

Or maybe, just maybe, if you DAMP really hard, in the end, you might hear some breathing coming from underneath that Inquisitor's dragon helmet..*ducks*



#16
Willowhugger

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No. Gameplay/story segregation. The Warden is an extremely talented individual, but he isn't any more or less powerful than Hawke or the Inquisitor will be.

 

My Warden and Hawke were Archmages.

There's been a lot of Archmages in history.

 

There's also plenty of things in the Fade and on Thedas which dwarf human capacity to deal with.

Besides, it's not like this is Superman we're talking about.

Ser Cauthrian shows that a bunch of guys with bows and a decent warrior can beat even the Warden. The Warden and Hawke can beat like 8 guys themselves.

Send 9.

 

Very different from Superman.


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#17
TheKomandorShepard

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My Warden and Hawke were Archmages.

There's been a lot of Archmages in history.

 

There's also plenty of things in the Fade and on Thedas which dwarf human capacity to deal with.

Besides, it's not like this is Superman we're talking about.

Ser Cauthrian shows that a bunch of guys with bows and a decent warrior can beat even the Warden. The Warden and Hawke can beat like 8 guys themselves.

Send 9.

 

Very different from Superman.

I crushed her solo. :P



#18
Mistic

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Maybe you should. Do you chose the red pill to make a fatal jump to your death, or the blue one to have a bolt of lightning strike you to death for about five minutes straight...?

 

Or maybe, just maybe, if you DAMP really hard, in the end, you might hear some breathing coming from underneath that Inquisitor's dragon helmet..*ducks*

 

What, no green pill? :P



#19
Maria Caliban

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Most of TOR's heroes are more powerful than the Warden. Reven as well. Probably the Bhaalspawn and the Spirit Monk on top of that.

BioWare got rid of the Warden for the same reason they got rid of Hawke: they didn't want players to constantly complain about prior PCs not showing up and fixing things. Before DA II came out, there were hundreds of post where people complained about the Warden not showing up in Kirkwall and fixing... whatever. Or the story not being about the Darkspawn even after the Blight was finished.

BioWare is going to have a new hero for every game, which means they need to shuffle off the old one.
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#20
Willowhugger

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Most of TOR's heroes are more powerful than the Warden. Reven as well. Probably the Bhaalspawn and the Spirit Monk on top of that.

BioWare got rid of the Warden for the same reason they got rid of Hawke: they didn't want players to constantly complain about prior PCs not showing up and fixing things. Before DA II came out, there were hundreds of post where people complained about the Warden not showing up in Kirkwall and fixing... whatever. Or the story not being about the Darkspawn even after the Blight was finished.

BioWare is going to have a new hero for every game, which means they need to shuffle off the old one.

 

Bioware needs to master the art of appearing to listen to us and then ignoring us whenever it's convenient.

:-)


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#21
TTTX

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Most of TOR's heroes are more powerful than the Warden. Reven as well. Probably the Bhaalspawn and the Spirit Monk on top of that.

BioWare got rid of the Warden for the same reason they got rid of Hawke: they didn't want players to constantly complain about prior PCs not showing up and fixing things. Before DA II came out, there were hundreds of post where people complained about the Warden not showing up in Kirkwall and fixing... whatever. Or the story not being about the Darkspawn even after the Blight was finished.

BioWare is going to have a new hero for every game, which means they need to shuffle off the old one.

They were probably planning to have Hawke to be protagonist for one more game (At least it was probably talked about at some point) or at least the canceled expansion pack for DA2, but things changed a bit as not everyone seemed to like Hawke and DA2.

 

At least that's my theory.


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#22
HiroVoid

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They were probably planning to have Hawke to be protagonist for one more game (At least it was probably talked about at some point) or at least the canceled expansion pack for DA2, but things changed a bit as not everyone seemed to like Hawke and DA2.

 

At least that's my theory.

That was my theory after DA2 came out due to how it ended......I guess I was kinda right since the expansion pack was planned.



#23
Willowhugger

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Was the Warden too powerful?

No, all of his Companions were the same level.

 

:lol:



#24
animedreamer

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My Warden and Hawke were Archmages.

There's been a lot of Archmages in history.

 

There's also plenty of things in the Fade and on Thedas which dwarf human capacity to deal with.

Besides, it's not like this is Superman we're talking about.

Ser Cauthrian shows that a bunch of guys with bows and a decent warrior can beat even the Warden. The Warden and Hawke can beat like 8 guys themselves.

Send 9.

 

Very different from Superman.

 

This is very close to what i was trying to get across. I not saying the Warden was unbeatable, or anything like that but based on how their origin went, coupled with the unique circumstances/abilities they only seem to possess in comparison to other heroes thus far, it's not all that much of a stretch to see them as kind of above the rest. Mage Hawke in comparison to Mage warden didn't have any of the same praise when it came to their skill as a mage, rather it seemed limited to what was known between the family, like I think there is a moment where we learn that a mage hawke was a better or quicker study than Bethany was, but that says little in comparison to someone who was trained by the First Enchanter of Ferelden's circle, and was considered their prize pupil. Also while mechanics aren't something that holds up in lore, You can potentially reach a higher level over all than a lot of the named NPC's in origins like Irving or Jowan, Hawke doesn't reach those levels in my opinion. The one unique thing about hawke was his mage overkills in some boss battles, but because of the trailer one wonders if they had more to do with intended blood magic or his actual ability.



#25
animedreamer

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Was the Warden too powerful?

No, all of his Companions were the same level.

 

:lol:

 

but not all his companions had the same ability.. 

 

The Warden on several occasions gained bonus stat points, and skill points, learned additional skills in Soldiers Peak that his Fellow Wardens did not get, and gained knowledge of specializations that lore wise would have to be passed on from them to others or not at all.